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Pro12 Officiating

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    #32
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    It's easy to sit and say the refereeing is fine when your team hasn't been on the end of some outrageously bad decisions that have at times cost matches, and big matches at that.

    Can't think of any big matches that Ulster have lost purely down to the ref tbh.


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    #33
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Can't think of any big matches that Ulster have lost purely down to the ref tbh.

    Really?

    The two big ones off the top of my head are Lacey's absolutely disgraceful performance in the pro12 final. The most galling decision of all when he decided to award a penalty to Leinster from an Ulster scrum on the Leinster try line when Isaac Boss was both offside AND tackled the man without the ball. This was not one of those "fine margins" moments, this was a full on whopper of a decision at a point when that game was entirely in the balance. The correct decision was a yellow card for Boss and a penalty try for Ulster, so how on earth he arrived at the complete opposite is entirely baffling.

    The other one off the top of my head being Iain Henderson's red card against Munster last year which definitely cost us a win and a home semi final. Although at least Nigel Owens was big enough to admit he got that one very wrong, and that after many people on here were trying to tell us all how he got it right.

    Fair enough, we shouldn't constantly complain but Ulster absolutely have been screwed over by poor officiating in the past so it's not hard to see why opinions of certain officials (but not all of them) are pretty low.


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    #34
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    He didn't get away with it on this occasion, but who else remembers Clancy trying to give Leinster a try after the final whistle against Ulster about 3 years ago?

    These things do not inspire confidence...


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    #35
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    It's pretty clear from this statement that you know little or nothing about referee coaching within the IRFU. But please, you are welcome to prove me wrong here :)

    Well to become an affiliate referee which allows you to referee within your own club or school, you have to attend a seminar run by David O'Brien where he talks for 3 hours and afterwards you are deemed fit to referee any game from U19 down. There are no assessments done on you after or before you finish this seminar and it is valid for 3 seasons. The only thing you must do is complete an IRB questionnaire and that's you done. Anything else you'd like to know?


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    #36
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Well to become an affiliate referee which allows you to referee within your own club or school, you have to attend a seminar run by David O'Brien where he talks for 3 hours and afterwards you are deemed fit to referee any game from U19 down. There are no assessments done on you after or before you finish this seminar and it is valid for 3 seasons. The only thing you must do is complete an IRB questionnaire and that's you done. Anything else you'd like to know?

    This really isn't a thread about people refereeing within their own club or school


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    #37
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    This really isn't a thread about people refereeing within their own club or school

    Well my basis for bringing it up was where are better referees to push up into AIL and Pro12 level in Ireland going to come from if this is the starting point for most referees.


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    #38
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    awec wrote: »
    The other one off the top of my head being Iain Henderson's red card against Munster last year which definitely cost us a win and a home semi final. Although at least Nigel Owens was big enough to admit he got that one very wrong, and that after many people on here were trying to tell us all how he got it right.

    Did he?


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    #39
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    former total wrote: »
    Did he?

    He did, his evidence at Henderson's hearing was part of the reason the decision was overturned.


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    #40
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Well my basis for bringing it up was where are better referees to push up into AIL and Pro12 level in Ireland going to come from if this is the starting point for most referees.

    Exactly how they do it currently. By getting appraised on their performances and developed into stronger referees. There is no problem with the standard of referees within Ireland and the way the IRFU develop referees. I think people who think there's a problem in Ireland probably need to broaden their horizons and try playing elsewhere and they might realise how lucky they are.


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    #41
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    awec wrote: »
    He did, his evidence at Henderson's hearing was part of the reason the decision was overturned.

    A quick google says that a different camera angle, not available to Owens at the time, was the reason for Henderson's exoneration.

    Which sort of supports my opinion that the refs haven't got worse, just our expectations of them and our ability to micro-analyse every minute of the game.


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    #42
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Really?

    The two big ones off the top of my head are Lacey's absolutely disgraceful performance in the pro12 final. The most galling decision of all when he decided to award a penalty to Leinster from an Ulster scrum on the Leinster try line when Isaac Boss was both offside AND tackled the man without the ball. This was not one of those "fine margins" moments, this was a full on whopper of a decision at a point when that game was entirely in the balance. The correct decision was a yellow card for Boss and a penalty try for Ulster, so how on earth he arrived at the complete opposite is entirely baffling.

    The other one off the top of my head being Iain Henderson's red card against Munster last year which definitely cost us a win and a home semi final. Although at least Nigel Owens was big enough to admit he got that one very wrong, and that after many people on here were trying to tell us all how he got it right.

    Fair enough, we shouldn't constantly complain but Ulster absolutely have been screwed over by poor officiating in the past so it's not hard to see why opinions of certain officials (but not all of them) are pretty low.

    Right. The Pro 12 final Ulster were completely outplayed regardless of Lacey. Maybe that's one example of a bad performance but it's not an example of a referee costing them the game.

    The second example is one decision. Not a performance. And if Nigel Owens is an example of a referee who isn't good enough then the sport is ****ed.


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    #43
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    The other one off the top of my head being Iain Henderson's red card against Munster last year which definitely cost us a win and a home semi final. Although at least Nigel Owens was big enough to admit he got that one very wrong, and that after many people on here were trying to tell us all how he got it right.

    Definitely cost you a win, come off it.

    This was very late in the game far as I remember, and Henderson flew off his feet in the ruck with a shoulder. The only thing that definitely cost you the win was Henderson being a dope. Even if he'd stayed on the field it was definitely a penalty against.


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    #44
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,801 ✭✭✭✭phog


    awec wrote: »
    He didn't get away with it on this occasion, but who else remembers Clancy trying to give Leinster a try after the final whistle against Ulster about 3 years ago?

    These things do not inspire confidence...

    That was after Leo convinced the Clancy that he saw the ball being grounded. While the ref had blown the full time whistle imho he was right to check on the basis of what Leo had said. The replay showed Leo couldn't have seen the ball grounded and Clancy had made the right call to blow for full time.


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    #45
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Exactly how they do it currently. By getting appraised on their performances and developed into stronger referees. There is no problem with the standard of referees within Ireland and the way the IRFU develop referees. I think people who think there's a problem in Ireland probably need to broaden their horizons and try playing elsewhere and they might realise how lucky they are.

    Oh I'm sorry Joel Jutge. I didn't realise you were the man on the forum to approach about refereeing.Well having played in New Zealand, South Africa and England; I can safely say that the standard of refereeing here is poor and needs to be addressed.


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    #46
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Oh I'm sorry Joel Jutge. I didn't realise you were the man on the forum to approach about refereeing.Well having played in New Zealand, South Africa and England; I can safely say that the standard of refereeing here is poor and needs to be addressed.

    OK then, what do they do in England that is different to what we do that would improve things?


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    #47
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    OK then, what do they do in England that is different to what we do that would improve things?

    To referee U13 or above, you must do a 12 hour course which includes practical and classroom learning. Then you must join a Referee Society which is then regulated and you are appointed and assessed at all of your early games. You also have access to Premiership and Championship referees in an online capacity to ask them questions and gain experience from them.

    Also there are a huge amount of courses for the price of £15 each, which are 1-3 hour courses on various parts of the game. Scrum, lineout, breakdown, dealing with captains, and many more.


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    #48
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    To referee U13 or above, you must do a 12 hour course which includes practical and classroom learning. Then you must join a Referee Society which is then regulated and you are appointed and assessed at all of your early games. You also have access to Premiership and Championship referees in an online capacity to ask them questions and gain experience from them.
    But you're not comparing like with like.

    I think what you actually mean is that to referee within a club or school in England, or even outside of it I believe, you have to attend a 3 hour course and are then good to go. Which was your original complaint about Irish rugby wasn't it?


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    #49
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,017 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    All that course is is a bare minimum entry point to allows coaches at youth levels or teachers and even some players to get the ABC and fundamentals of refereeing. It is most definitely not a qualification of wholesale competency for referees; it bestows you no right to be appointed for games nor does it offer you membership into the referee associations or panels in any of the branches.

    If anything, it gives a degree of aid to coaches and or helpers who would otherwise have had no training in how to call a game. Don't forget that those who would take this course would still be asked to referee the same sort of games that they'd cover had they not done this course. Without them stepping in most mini blitzes and youth and schools games and some ladies games would have to be cancelled due to there being no ref so if anything players and the game are benefiting from its existence. Also, it has opened up refereeing to many more new recruits who have made the step up to full AR membership, which again is better for the game as a whole

    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Well to become an affiliate referee which allows you to referee within your own club or school, you have to attend a seminar run by David O'Brien where he talks for 3 hours and afterwards you are deemed fit to referee any game from U19 down. There are no assessments done on you after or before you finish this seminar and it is valid for 3 seasons. The only thing you must do is complete an IRB questionnaire and that's you done. Anything else you'd like to know?


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    #50
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,483 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    awec wrote: »
    It's easy to sit and say the refereeing is fine when your team hasn't been on the end of some outrageously bad decisions that have at times cost matches, and big matches at that.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. To enjoy rugby, you have to accept that your side WILL be on the side of incorrect ref calls, and it may at times contribute to or cause your side to lose. You can't control the ref!

    Whta your team & coach do is select the best team and gameplan and keep their side of the bargain up. The best sides and captains also adjust their game according to which ref is appointed.

    I think it's much more reasonable to criticise the TMOs then the refs to be fair: the refs work in real-time, the TMOs have all the time they want.

    I'm more baffled by some of the very ordinary decisions by TMOs than the refs in the middle TBH.


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    #51
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Definitely cost you a win, come off it.

    This was very late in the game far as I remember, and Henderson flew off his feet in the ruck with a shoulder. The only thing that definitely cost you the win was Henderson being a dope. Even if he'd stayed on the field it was definitely a penalty against.

    Munster went up the field and scored a try when we went down to 14. It was late in the game.


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    #52
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    Munster went up the field and scored a try when we went down to 14. It was late in the game.

    They were already winning the game when Henderson got sent off. I assume you accept it was at least a penalty against, because not doing so would be nuts. They would have had to clear their lines and hang on for a few minutes. The red card did not definitely lose Ulster the game.


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    #53
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    awec wrote: »
    Munster went up the field and scored a try when we went down to 14. It was late in the game.

    If it wasnt a red it was a certainly Yellow so he'd have been off the pitch anyway


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    #54
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    But you're not comparing like with like.

    I think what you actually mean is that to referee within a club or school in England, or even outside of it I believe, you have to attend a 3 hour course and are then good to go. Which was your original complaint about Irish rugby wasn't it?

    12 hours in England does not equal 3 hours in Ireland unless Daylight Saving Time has drastically changed!


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    #55
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    What's really comical is that the English Premiership has an abundance of referees; good ones at that, and for Leinster - Ulster a few years ago - they bring over Luke Pearce to referee it, which I thought was great. Can't really remember any other instances of them doing that, when it's exactly whats needed.And yet, there's a Welsh referee who refereed in the JWC reffing Marys - Trinity the other night. Like, it boggles the mind.

    Go out and watch any schools game or J1 game, and the standard is absolutely deplorable. The referees all have such a sense of self importance and make games all about them. Also the fact that any U12-U19 game can be refereed by someone who attends a two hour seminar where you sit and just go through a slideshow without any practical or assessment and you're told to go forth and referee all before you. Literally nothing worse than a referee ruining a schools game when you can see the kids getting more and more frustrated with the standard.
    The standard isn't deplorable and this set up is done as too many people will never have the balls to actually become a branch/society referee and referee outside of their club. Any game from under 13-19 can be refereed by someone with attendance at a short course but they can only referee within their own club and do so if an appointed referee from their provinces association or society of refs has not been appointed to the game. They only exist as not enough people are willing to take up membership of the assoc/socs and ref games at any level as appointed.
    There is very regularly refs from other countries refereeing games here as part of their development. Same as irish refs at AIL level are sent abroad for games at times if on the pathway to go higher.
    awec wrote: »
    It's easy to sit and say the refereeing is fine when your team hasn't been on the end of some outrageously bad decisions that have at times cost matches, and big matches at that.
    .... Awec you criticise refs when they've good performances never mind not great ones.....
    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Well to become an affiliate referee which allows you to referee within your own club or school, you have to attend a seminar run by David O'Brien where he talks for 3 hours and afterwards you are deemed fit to referee any game from U19 down. There are no assessments done on you after or before you finish this seminar and it is valid for 3 seasons. The only thing you must do is complete an IRB questionnaire and that's you done. Anything else you'd like to know?
    There is assessments done after this and there is training for affiliate refs. The affiliate course only exists because not enough people like yourself and others will not volunteer to become association refs.
    FellasFellas wrote: »
    To referee U13 or above, you must do a 12 hour course which includes practical and classroom learning. Then you must join a Referee Society which is then regulated and you are appointed and assessed at all of your early games. You also have access to Premiership and Championship referees in an online capacity to ask them questions and gain experience from them.

    Also there are a huge amount of courses for the price of £15 each, which are 1-3 hour courses on various parts of the game. Scrum, lineout, breakdown, dealing with captains, and many more.
    That would happen here if we had enough volunteers to ref. Associate refs wouldn't exist if we had enough people volunteering to become general members of their provinces association or society of referees. There is monthly meetings and bi monthly in some provinces for referees to train and improve. They are assessed regularly as well and those with potential to go further up the grades are assessed on a more regular basis.


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    #56
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    If it wasnt a red it was a certainly Yellow so he'd have been off the pitch anyway

    Exactly. An Embra player has been banned this season for a not entirely dissimilar incident. Lead into the ruck with a shoulder.

    Awec I'm sorry but this goes exactly back to the points FT made on the previous page about legitimate vs non grievances.


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    #57
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    I've said it before and I'll say it again. To enjoy rugby, you have to accept that your side WILL be on the side of incorrect ref calls, and it may at times contribute to or cause your side to lose. You can't control the ref!

    Whta your team & coach do is select the best team and gameplan and keep their side of the bargain up. The best sides and captains also adjust their game according to which ref is appointed.

    I think it's much more reasonable to criticise the TMOs then the refs to be fair: the refs work in real-time, the TMOs have all the time they want.

    I'm more baffled by some of the very ordinary decisions by TMOs than the refs in the middle TBH.

    Don't worry swiwi, I haven't forgotten about the TMOs... ;)

    I am not so quick to forgive referees who continually make blunders, the Ulster way really. Alain Rolland is still immensely disliked by Ulster fans for incidents that happened at the turn of the millenium.


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    #58
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Really?

    The two big ones off the top of my head are Lacey's absolutely disgraceful performance in the pro12 final. The most galling decision of all when he decided to award a penalty to Leinster from an Ulster scrum on the Leinster try line when Isaac Boss was both offside AND tackled the man without the ball. This was not one of those "fine margins" moments, this was a full on whopper of a decision at a point when that game was entirely in the balance. The correct decision was a yellow card for Boss and a penalty try for Ulster, so how on earth he arrived at the complete opposite is entirely baffling.

    Ulster were second best on the day awec and you know it. I'm sure if I were so inclined I could find other incidents that went against Leinster that weren't pinged. I'm far less concerned about mistakes made in real time because of the difficulties in the job the officials have. As swiwi said the most serious issues are the ones that go to the TMO and are still messed up.
    awec wrote: »
    The other one off the top of my head being Iain Henderson's red card against Munster last year which definitely cost us a win and a home semi final. Although at least Nigel Owens was big enough to admit he got that one very wrong, and that after many people on here were trying to tell us all how he got it right.

    Referees make mistakes. They are human. Unless they go to the TMO they have 1 angle on events (a different one to the one that we have) and no replays or alternative angles to call on. You simply have to expect the odd mistake and that sometimes they'll go your way and sometimes they won't. That's the nature of the game.
    awec wrote: »
    Fair enough, we shouldn't constantly complain but Ulster absolutely have been screwed over by poor officiating in the past so it's not hard to see why opinions of certain officials (but not all of them) are pretty low.

    It's exactly this kind of attitude that I don't want to see coming across in this thread. This makes out like there's almost some sort of conspiracy against Ulster. Yet strangely a lot of Ospreys fans spoke about how Whitehouse bowed to pressure from the Ulster fans at the end of the game on Saturday and about how that regularly happens in Ravenhill because of how vocal your supporters are. Both of you can't possibly be right.

    If you're honest you aren't the most forgiving when it comes to referees. Generally speaking referees do not decide who wins games. They make mistakes but it's a rare thing that you can honestly point to a refereeing performance and say they decided things over the 80. So if you find yourself generally complaining about referees after games then maybe you're expectations are not realistic or, and wait for this, you're wrong sometimes.


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    #59
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Alain Rolland is still immensely disliked by Ulster fans for incidents that happened at the turn of the millenium.

    Well that's just petty in fairness.


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    #60
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,801 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://cardiffbluesblog.com/2016/10/05/analysis-was-the-refereeing-that-bad/


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    phog wrote: »
    https://cardiffbluesblog.com/2016/10/05/analysis-was-the-refereeing-that-bad/

    The damning thing about that overview is that it's coming from a completely neutral source examining infringements from both teams.


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