RAILWAY PRESERVATION

Grandeeod · 04-10-2016 07:52PM #1

Here goes!

Let's discuss Railway preservation in Ireland in general. I'm aware that previous threads have gone nuclear over the years, but maybe we can finally get down to a debate without a ban stick or thread shutter happening.

My opinion, expressed on a different thread, is documented and influenced by a business approach. Business head first. Heart second.

Del.Monte · 04-10-2016 09:37PM

I fear this won't end well, but here goes...

A chronological list of failure. I'm afraid it's so depressing that I'm only adding these three to start with. Dates are increasingly hazy, thankfully, so don't take them as gospel.

A chronological list of railway preservation in the Republic of Ireland
(excludes the RPSI, plinthed locos and failed attempts to preserve a Bandon Tank etc.)

1. 1979-1983 East Cork Railway Supporters Association. Established to preserve the Cobh Jn/Youghal line. Became part of the GSRPS in 1983.

2. (1979-)The West of Ireland Steam Railway Association (WISRA). Established to preserve the Attymon Jn/Loughrea branch. Set up a depot at Attymon Junction and accumulated a wide range of decrepit stock.
Eventually infiltrated by ‘shadowy’ elements from Dublin who eased out many of the original members and led to a complete change of direction. This culminated in the entire operation being relocated to Tuam and rebranded as Westrail.

Interesting pics here:

https://www.facebook.com/westrailtuam/

and an interesting thread here: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1933#.V_QSQyQ22So

3. 1983-1989 The Great Southern Railway Preservation. Established to preserve the Cobh Jn/Youghal line but were fobbed by CIE with the Fenit branch instead. Eventually had depots at Mallow and Tralee loco sheds, and carried out considerable remedial work on the Fenit branch (with AnCo/FAS) A change of management in CIE in the late 1980s saw the whole operation fall apart. However, the society were responsible for saving a wide variety of stock to be found today at Downpatrick, Carrick-on-Suir, Blennerville (5T) and other locations – SL&NCR Railcar B, miscellaneous six-wheelers, G-class locomotives etc.

More tomorrow if there's any interest or if I can bear it.

savagethegoat · 05-10-2016 08:25AM

I'd rather we dwelled on the future rather than the past.

Is there a future for Preservation in the Republic?

The successes are few and most stock has "gone north".

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 09:39AM

savagethegoat wrote: »

I'd rather we dwelled on the future rather than the past.

Is there a future for Preservation in the Republic?

The successes are few and most stock has "gone north".

NO is the short answer - in my opinion. Apart from the 'plaything' at Stradbally - it is what it is - and the strange incarnation which is the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway http://www.wsvrailway.ie/ there's nothing doing.

Halfway House (nr.Ballinahassig, Cork) - collection of ex.GSRPS stock that has no future.

Tralee/Blennerville - if it ever reopens will remain a travesty.

Listowel & Ballybunion - more of a heritage centre than a preserved railway.

West Clare Railway (Moyasta) - no long term future.

Cavan & Leitrim Railway (Dromod) - has a date with Hammond Lane when the proprietor calls it a day.

Belturbet Station, Co.Cavan - various stock including Waterford, Limerick & Western Royal Saloon No.900 (ex.GSRPS) awaiting scrapman.

Co.Donegal Railway, Donegal Town http://www.donegalrailway.com/ - once a project to rebuild part of the CDR is now a heritage centre operation in the old railway station. No long term future.

Fintown Railway, Donegal http://www.antraen.com/ - remote narrow gauge line using an ex.CDR railbus. No long term future as is far too remote from visitors or volunteers.

Foyle Valley Railway Museum, Derry - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/lockedaway-collection-of-northern-ireland-railway-artefacts-could-be-lost-forever-31188904.html

- included as it's proof that Derry should have been included in the Republic at partition. It replicates perfectly how things are done down here. Awaiting final solution by arsonists.

Riverstown Mill, Co.Louth - a strange 4ft 8.5" operation which closed down almost as soon as it opened. A British industrial steam locomotive, a railbus and sundry other stock are apparently still on site mouldering away for about 16 years.

So NO is my considered opinion, there is no future for proper railway preservation in the Republic apart from RPSI tours.

savagethegoat · 05-10-2016 10:10AM

can we discuss the reasons why? Most preservation attempts in the Uk have started with the volunteers and built from there. There doesn't seem to be the will to start at grassroot level in the Republic. Many projects seem to want the land , per way and dosh given to them before they start.

I've revised your list in line with my opinions.

Halfway House (nr.Ballinahassig, Cork) - small collection inc a diesel loco doesn't seem to have a purpose

Tralee/Blennerville - . This Society had a rescue plan worked out and costed with funds available from non-KCC sources and yet KCC is determined to go ahead themselves and are looking for funding from central Govt. It will in my view be a travesty until they bulldoze the mainline size platforms and acquire proper sized coaches Doomed to repeat all the mistakes made forst time round.

Listowel & Ballybunion - more of a heritage centre than a preserved railway. Built with a one million euro (punt) grant when Jimmy Denaghan had pull.

West Clare Railway (Moyasta) - One man band. Big plans dependent on a grant being made.

Cavan & Leitrim Railway (Dromod) - One man band, no discernable progress of late.

Belturbet Station, Co.Cavan - small local display in restored station. Pretty much irrelevant to Preservtion.

Co.Donegal Railway, Donegal Town http://www.donegalrailway.com/ - Small museum with some vehicles of interest .It's loco is stranded at RPSI due to lack of funds

Fintown Railway, Donegal http://www.antraen.com/ - remote but operating.

Foyle Valley Railway Museum, Derry - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31188904.html = shut by the Council. Noone seems to know anything much about the NWIRPS who own a lot of the stock

.Riverstown Mill, Co.Louth - irrelevant.

ITG Carrick on Suir and Moyasta Some work ingoing at Carrick otherwise storage

So what is the problem? The UK seem to have progressive small groups, but pretty much everything there is in the Republic is stagnant

Losty Dublin · 05-10-2016 12:27PM

From my time chipping in, the UK has had a few head starts on a number of stands.

The UK has a background in heavy engineering whereas we don't. They had more pride in their railways and more skills to preserve.
The UK had a lot more cash to do these things whereas we as a nation hadn't.
The UK has greater numbers of people whereas we haven't. This means more volunteers and more customers.
The UK had some more favourable handovers of some of their preserved lines; we didn't have this for whatever reasons we can care to bring up.
The UK had a far slower progression from steam to diesel. This meant that engines were far easier to get for their preservation societies when it came to looking for motive power.

Ironically this applied with the UTA as well. It's non investing in diesel locos is one reason why more of the current working RPSI engines were kept in traffic for goods etc (4, 171, 85, soon to be 131 and Harvey.) and were saved compared to it's southern engines (184, 186 and 461)

Curiously enough we have arguably a more assessable track access arrangement between CIE and NIR over the years. This has given the RPSI the chance to run more sensible if shorter mainline trips with a little more ease and at a cheaper ticket price than in the UK.

Lastly, we should recognise that many UK projects have failed over the years so it's not purely an Irish thing.

savagethegoat wrote: »

can we discuss the reasons why? Most preservation attempts in the Uk have started with the volunteers and built from there. There doesn't seem to be the will to start at grassroot level in the Republic. Many projects seem to want the land , per way and dosh given to them before they start.....

So what is the problem? The UK seem to have progressive small groups, but pretty much everything there is in the Republic is stagnant

savagethegoat · 05-10-2016 12:37PM

that doesn't explain why the existing groups are not thriving though.

I suggested to a group recently that they applied for access to a site on a caretaker basis to tidy up and start a volunteer base. No interest, because I suspect, they didn't want to work for the Council for nothing. You can't really expect the Owner to hand over a site to a totally unknown and untried organisation , so I thought this would be a good way to get a foot in the door.

There's also the issue of having a totally democratic Society running the show. The feeling with this particular organisation was that Society Membership would not carry voting rights. I find that odd.

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 01:25PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

that doesn't explain why the existing groups are not thriving though.

I suggested to a group recently that they applied for access to a site on a caretaker basis to tidy up and start a volunteer base. No interest, because I suspect, they didn't want to work for the Council for nothing. You can't really expect the Owner to hand over a site to a totally unknown and untried organisation , so I thought this would be a good way to get a foot in the door.

There's also the issue of having a totally democratic Society running the show. The feeling with this particular organisation was that Society Membership would not carry voting rights. I find that odd.

Don't be afraid to name and shame. We all know that it's the Tralee/Dingle 'Facebook' Society that you're talking about. At the outset I told them how it would pan out but what would I know compared to all their Facebook likes.

savagethegoat · 05-10-2016 01:45PM

i'm not out to name and shame, they tried their best.

I'm just intrigued to know why preservation here doesn't work when it is so successful in the UK.

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 02:00PM

Timoleague/Courtmacsherry Project - another early 1980s scheme that ended up as a complete farce West Cork Model Railway Village http://www.modelvillage.ie/

As with a number of other schemes the GSRPS were called in and then disposed with when they were deemed of no further use to those involved.

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 02:03PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

i'm not out to name and shame, they tried their best.

I'm just intrigued to know why preservation here doesn't work when it is so successful in the UK.

If we are going to bother discussing these things there's no point in being coy about naming names. You asked why things fail and I'm telling you that one reason they fail is that people won't listen to those with experience.

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 02:44PM

Cahir Railway Museum (1989-1993) - a private venture that ran out of space and funds. Burnt by Tipperary Enterprise http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1993021100019?opendocument and ignored by Bord Failte. The latter body finally got around to erecting expensive brown tourist signs for the museum - two years after it had been sold.

CAHIR%2BFINAL.png

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 03:12PM

Queenstown Project, Cobh, Co.Cork

Bord Failte and local business interests called in the GSRPS and told them they were to be the 'honeypot' project...but once funds were sourced they were shoved out again. A picture paints a thousand words and this one surely does. Not one steam train has operated as a result of the project, the railway museum was to be in the old carriage shed but that's now a space age Garda station. Anyway, the Queenstown project morphed into the Cobh Heritage Centre http://www.cobhheritage.com/ and has proved to be a massive loss maker.

whisky_galore · 05-10-2016 03:46PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

can we discuss the reasons why? Most preservation attempts in the Uk have started with the volunteers and built from there.

The reason why is very simple, to paraphrase a well worn cliché; "it's not our culture".

Unlike the uk, there is no critical mass of people with enough of an interest in railways that will put their money where their mouth is or roll up their sleeves get stuck in.

Add to that, the lack of suitable sites near large centres of population to support with both labour/bums on seats.

There may have been suitable sites in the past as in back in the 1960's, but there would have been no interest (see point 1) and no disposable income/leisure time to develop same.

railer201 · 05-10-2016 05:22PM

Whatever happened to the 'Oslo Bar' heritage group, a few years back now, who weren't exactly promising a heritage railway, but were into 'prospecting' for a suitable preserved railway line - and sallied forth shrouded in a cloak of secrecy to 'negotiate' with some landowners somewhere - and that's the last that was heard from them ?

I'm afraid I concur with Del Monte on this one.

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 05:43PM

railer201 wrote: »

Whatever happened to the 'Oslo Bar' heritage group, a few years back now, who weren't exactly promising a heritage railway, but were into 'prospecting' for a suitable preserved railway line - and sallied forth shrouded in a cloak of secrecy to 'negotiate' with some landowners somewhere - and that's the last that was heard from them ?

I'm afraid I concur with Del Monte on this one.

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1452/Heritage-Railway-meetings?page=#.V_UtbyQ22So

savagethegoat · 05-10-2016 05:59PM

some fascinating detail emerging which we can probably learn from. Thx people

Del.Monte · 05-10-2016 07:41PM

Bit of background about West of Ireland Steam Railway Association below. Very optimistic stuff. WISRA was a shambles long before the 'shadowy' influences mentioned earlier, and one of the biggest fiascos was the infamous raffle for tickets for James Sherwood's newly launched "Orient Express". As far as I know the draw never took place as the cost of the prize tickets was astronomical. The Association then resorted to selling rubber noses to the few people who sought out their shop at Attymon Junction.

Meanwhile they failed to attract a single member from Loughrea which was quite an achievement given how hard the town fought to keep the railway over the previous twenty years. The few volunteers, myself included traveled miles to Attymon whereas local support was thin on the ground. We soon saw the light and left them to their own devices.

When the new regime took over there was a great deal of 'messing' on the branch which, in one incident, is supposed to have triggered the Galway Major Accident Plan! I'll say no more...

hurricanemk1c · 06-10-2016 09:58AM

May I ask a question? How many here have actually been involved in the preservation movement here? It is very easy to deride and down-play the roles of groups when you have nothing to do with them (or even that area). The two main failings behind all of the groups that didn't make it was money and people. Both lack of money and lack of people as well as some unsuited people who power went to their heads or had a closed shop attitude to fresh blood

It's interesting to note that the two railways mentioned earlier, "the 'plaything' at Stradbally" and "the strange incarnation which is the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway" are the only regularly operating preserved railways in the Republic of Ireland that are a reasonable commercial success, as well as attracting young volunteers. Both have active social media accounts as well. Dromod is currently in a state of flux due to track work issues, T&D not operating, West Clare no-one really knows, Fintown is beautiful but remote (like WCR). However the efforts of those at those locations (Carrick-on-Suir is a workshop base rather than a railway) should be commended, with a lot of items preserved that would otherwise have disappeared many decades ago.

5rtytry56 · 06-10-2016 10:12AM

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

as well as some unsuited people who power went to their heads or had a closed shop attitude to fresh blood

- a blight in Ireland unfortunately, which affects the Irish hobby scene as well. To illustrate my point, this veers slightly off topic but here goes: There have been a number of Model Railways open to the public over the past number of years. Some are quite successful like the Fry model railway. ....And then there is the Model Railway located outside Dublin which was featured on Nationwide in 2013. I visited it on one occasion. I tried to visit it later again, only to be told when I arrived that it was closed early that day. Their facebook page has'nt been updated for ages either.

that's my spake.

Sinkyou · 06-10-2016 10:20AM

These people have an Axe to Grind. The have a second Agenda.

savagethegoat · 06-10-2016 10:22AM

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

May I ask a question? How many here have actually been involved in the preservation movement here? It is very easy to deride and down-play the roles of groups when you have nothing to do with them (or even that area). The two main failings behind all of the groups that didn't make it was money and people. Both lack of money and lack of people as well as some unsuited people who power went to their heads or had a closed shop attitude to fresh blood

It's interesting to note that the two railways mentioned earlier, "the 'plaything' at Stradbally" and "the strange incarnation which is the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway" are the only regularly operating preserved railways in the Republic of Ireland that are a reasonable commercial success, as well as attracting young volunteers. Both have active social media accounts as well. Dromod is currently in a state of flux due to track work issues, T&D not operating, West Clare no-one really knows, Fintown is beautiful but remote (like WCR). However the efforts of those at those locations (Carrick-on-Suir is a workshop base rather than a railway) should be commended, with a lot of items preserved that would otherwise have disappeared many decades ago.

welcome to the Forum. The two railways you mention actually have little to do with Railway Preservation, commendable though they are.

whisky_galore · 06-10-2016 10:45AM

savagethegoat wrote: »

welcome to the Forum. The two railways you mention actually have little to do with Railway Preservation, commendable though they are.

Yes, unlike sites in the uk where the attention to period detail is like stepping onto a movie set, Stradbally and the Waterford line are a collection of random ex-industrial items and new-built stock pressed into passenger carrying which they never did in their operating life..although I doubt that many of the Irish public could tell the difference anyway as they're all 'choo-choo trains' and 'Thomas the Tanks' to them...even diesels...

savagethegoat · 06-10-2016 10:52AM

I agree , without wishing to take away from the success they do enjoy. It's just it doesn't educate anyone as to how the Railway used to be, which is the whole point to me.

5rtytry56 · 06-10-2016 11:03AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

many of the Irish public could tell the difference anyway as they're all 'choo-choo trains' and 'Thomas the Tanks' to them...even diesels...

more precisely most of the Irish public don't care to tell the difference....great day out for little Tommy

flyingsnail · 06-10-2016 11:07AM

5rtytry56 wrote: »

more precisely most of the Irish public don't care to tell the difference....great day out for little Tommy

I think people need to realise and accept this, you are never going to run a railway here based on enthusiasts, to make money you need to sell to the public. The simple fact is that without money you are going nowhere, so commercial facts have to take precedent over what enthusiasts want.

whisky_galore · 06-10-2016 11:27AM

I think the public here have a mindset that such things would be lovely, provided someone else did the work and stumped up the cash, that is the situ with heritage as a whole, not just railways.

All well disposed to the idea and good intentions and that's it.

The govt/board of works/county council/CIE/*insert name here* should do something.

savagethegoat · 06-10-2016 11:44AM

some of them actually stand in the way of it.

whisky_galore · 06-10-2016 11:46AM

savagethegoat wrote: »

some of them actually stand in the way of it.

Esp. landowners are notorious and anyone suspicious of 'blow-ins' which is a feature of rural Ireland.

5rtytry56 · 06-10-2016 11:48AM

savagethegoat wrote: »

some of them actually stand in the way of it.

Parents of Young Families here are easily disposed alright to make 'Health & Safety' complaints. And they're always "right"

"but poor Tommy got such a bad fright from the hissing steam"

5rtytry56 · 06-10-2016 11:50AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Esp. landowners are notorious and anyone suspicious of 'blow-ins' which is a feature of rural Ireland.

unless they can get enough monetary "compensation" from the project.

RAILWAY PRESERVATION

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