RAILWAY PRESERVATION

Grandeeod

Here goes!

Let's discuss Railway preservation in Ireland in general. I'm aware that previous threads have gone nuclear over the years, but maybe we can finally get down to a debate without a ban stick or thread shutter happening.

My opinion, expressed on a different thread, is documented and influenced by a business approach. Business head first. Heart second.

Del.Monte

I fear this won't end well, but here goes...

A chronological list of failure. I'm afraid it's so depressing that I'm only adding these three to start with. Dates are increasingly hazy, thankfully, so don't take them as gospel.

A chronological list of railway preservation in the Republic of Ireland
(excludes the RPSI, plinthed locos and failed attempts to preserve a Bandon Tank etc.)


1. 1979-1983 East Cork Railway Supporters Association. Established to preserve the Cobh Jn/Youghal line. Became part of the GSRPS in 1983.


2. (1979-)The West of Ireland Steam Railway Association (WISRA). Established to preserve the Attymon Jn/Loughrea branch. Set up a depot at Attymon Junction and accumulated a wide range of decrepit stock.
Eventually infiltrated by ‘shadowy’ elements from Dublin who eased out many of the original members and led to a complete change of direction. This culminated in the entire operation being relocated to Tuam and rebranded as Westrail.


Interesting pics here:

https://www.facebook.com/westrailtuam/

and an interesting thread here: http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1933#.V_QSQyQ22So


3. 1983-1989 The Great Southern Railway Preservation. Established to preserve the Cobh Jn/Youghal line but were fobbed by CIE with the Fenit branch instead. Eventually had depots at Mallow and Tralee loco sheds, and carried out considerable remedial work on the Fenit branch (with AnCo/FAS) A change of management in CIE in the late 1980s saw the whole operation fall apart. However, the society were responsible for saving a wide variety of stock to be found today at Downpatrick, Carrick-on-Suir, Blennerville (5T) and other locations – SL&NCR Railcar B, miscellaneous six-wheelers, G-class locomotives etc.

More tomorrow if there's any interest or if I can bear it.

savagethegoat

I'd rather we dwelled on the future rather than the past.

Is there a future for Preservation in the Republic?

The successes are few and most stock has "gone north".

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

I'd rather we dwelled on the future rather than the past.

Is there a future for Preservation in the Republic?

The successes are few and most stock has "gone north".

NO is the short answer - in my opinion. Apart from the 'plaything' at Stradbally - it is what it is - and the strange incarnation which is the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway http://www.wsvrailway.ie/ there's nothing doing.

Halfway House (nr.Ballinahassig, Cork) - collection of ex.GSRPS stock that has no future.

Tralee/Blennerville - if it ever reopens will remain a travesty.

Listowel & Ballybunion - more of a heritage centre than a preserved railway.

West Clare Railway (Moyasta) - no long term future.

Cavan & Leitrim Railway (Dromod) - has a date with Hammond Lane when the proprietor calls it a day.

Belturbet Station, Co.Cavan - various stock including Waterford, Limerick & Western Royal Saloon No.900 (ex.GSRPS) awaiting scrapman.

Co.Donegal Railway, Donegal Town http://www.donegalrailway.com/ - once a project to rebuild part of the CDR is now a heritage centre operation in the old railway station. No long term future.

Fintown Railway, Donegal http://www.antraen.com/ - remote narrow gauge line using an ex.CDR railbus. No long term future as is far too remote from visitors or volunteers.

Foyle Valley Railway Museum, Derry - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/lockedaway-collection-of-northern-ireland-railway-artefacts-could-be-lost-forever-31188904.html

- included as it's proof that Derry should have been included in the Republic at partition. It replicates perfectly how things are done down here. Awaiting final solution by arsonists.

Riverstown Mill, Co.Louth - a strange 4ft 8.5" operation which closed down almost as soon as it opened. A British industrial steam locomotive, a railbus and sundry other stock are apparently still on site mouldering away for about 16 years.

So NO is my considered opinion, there is no future for proper railway preservation in the Republic apart from RPSI tours.

savagethegoat

can we discuss the reasons why? Most preservation attempts in the Uk have started with the volunteers and built from there. There doesn't seem to be the will to start at grassroot level in the Republic. Many projects seem to want the land , per way and dosh given to them before they start.


I've revised your list in line with my opinions.

Halfway House (nr.Ballinahassig, Cork) - small collection inc a diesel loco doesn't seem to have a purpose


Tralee/Blennerville - . This Society had a rescue plan worked out and costed with funds available from non-KCC sources and yet KCC is determined to go ahead themselves and are looking for funding from central Govt. It will in my view be a travesty until they bulldoze the mainline size platforms and acquire proper sized coaches Doomed to repeat all the mistakes made forst time round.

Listowel & Ballybunion - more of a heritage centre than a preserved railway. Built with a one million euro (punt) grant when Jimmy Denaghan had pull.

West Clare Railway (Moyasta) - One man band. Big plans dependent on a grant being made.

Cavan & Leitrim Railway (Dromod) - One man band, no discernable progress of late.

Belturbet Station, Co.Cavan - small local display in restored station. Pretty much irrelevant to Preservtion.

Co.Donegal Railway, Donegal Town http://www.donegalrailway.com/ - Small museum with some vehicles of interest .It's loco is stranded at RPSI due to lack of funds

Fintown Railway, Donegal http://www.antraen.com/ - remote but operating.

Foyle Valley Railway Museum, Derry - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-31188904.html = shut by the Council. Noone seems to know anything much about the NWIRPS who own a lot of the stock

.Riverstown Mill, Co.Louth - irrelevant.

ITG Carrick on Suir and Moyasta Some work ingoing at Carrick otherwise storage




So what is the problem? The UK seem to have progressive small groups, but pretty much everything there is in the Republic is stagnant

Losty Dublin

From my time chipping in, the UK has had a few head starts on a number of stands.

• The UK has a background in heavy engineering whereas we don't. They had more pride in their railways and more skills to preserve.
• The UK had a lot more cash to do these things whereas we as a nation hadn't.
• The UK has greater numbers of people whereas we haven't. This means more volunteers and more customers.
• The UK had some more favourable handovers of some of their preserved lines; we didn't have this for whatever reasons we can care to bring up.
• The UK had a far slower progression from steam to diesel. This meant that engines were far easier to get for their preservation societies when it came to looking for motive power.
  
  Ironically this applied with the UTA as well. It's non investing in diesel locos is one reason why more of the current working RPSI engines were kept in traffic for goods etc (4, 171, 85, soon to be 131 and Harvey.) and were saved compared to it's southern engines (184, 186 and 461)

Curiously enough we have arguably a more assessable track access arrangement between CIE and NIR over the years. This has given the RPSI the chance to run more sensible if shorter mainline trips with a little more ease and at a cheaper ticket price than in the UK.

Lastly, we should recognise that many UK projects have failed over the years so it's not purely an Irish thing.

savagethegoat wrote: »

can we discuss the reasons why? Most preservation attempts in the Uk have started with the volunteers and built from there. There doesn't seem to be the will to start at grassroot level in the Republic. Many projects seem to want the land , per way and dosh given to them before they start.....


So what is the problem? The UK seem to have progressive small groups, but pretty much everything there is in the Republic is stagnant

savagethegoat

that doesn't explain why the existing groups are not thriving though.

I suggested to a group recently that they applied for access to a site on a caretaker basis to tidy up and start a volunteer base. No interest, because I suspect, they didn't want to work for the Council for nothing. You can't really expect the Owner to hand over a site to a totally unknown and untried organisation , so I thought this would be a good way to get a foot in the door.

There's also the issue of having a totally democratic Society running the show. The feeling with this particular organisation was that Society Membership would not carry voting rights. I find that odd.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

that doesn't explain why the existing groups are not thriving though.

I suggested to a group recently that they applied for access to a site on a caretaker basis to tidy up and start a volunteer base. No interest, because I suspect, they didn't want to work for the Council for nothing. You can't really expect the Owner to hand over a site to a totally unknown and untried organisation , so I thought this would be a good way to get a foot in the door.

There's also the issue of having a totally democratic Society running the show. The feeling with this particular organisation was that Society Membership would not carry voting rights. I find that odd.

Don't be afraid to name and shame. We all know that it's the Tralee/Dingle 'Facebook' Society that you're talking about. At the outset I told them how it would pan out but what would I know compared to all their Facebook likes.

savagethegoat

i'm not out to name and shame, they tried their best.

I'm just intrigued to know why preservation here doesn't work when it is so successful in the UK.

Del.Monte

Timoleague/Courtmacsherry Project - another early 1980s scheme that ended up as a complete farce West Cork Model Railway Village http://www.modelvillage.ie/

As with a number of other schemes the GSRPS were called in and then disposed with when they were deemed of no further use to those involved.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

i'm not out to name and shame, they tried their best.

I'm just intrigued to know why preservation here doesn't work when it is so successful in the UK.

If we are going to bother discussing these things there's no point in being coy about naming names. You asked why things fail and I'm telling you that one reason they fail is that people won't listen to those with experience.

Del.Monte

Cahir Railway Museum (1989-1993) - a private venture that ran out of space and funds. Burnt by Tipperary Enterprise http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1993021100019?opendocument and ignored by Bord Failte. The latter body finally got around to erecting expensive brown tourist signs for the museum - two years after it had been sold.

Del.Monte

Queenstown Project, Cobh, Co.Cork

Bord Failte and local business interests called in the GSRPS and told them they were to be the 'honeypot' project...but once funds were sourced they were shoved out again. A picture paints a thousand words and this one surely does. Not one steam train has operated as a result of the project, the railway museum was to be in the old carriage shed but that's now a space age Garda station. Anyway, the Queenstown project morphed into the Cobh Heritage Centre http://www.cobhheritage.com/ and has proved to be a massive loss maker.

whisky_galore

savagethegoat wrote: »

can we discuss the reasons why? Most preservation attempts in the Uk have started with the volunteers and built from there.

The reason why is very simple, to paraphrase a well worn cliché; "it's not our culture".

Unlike the uk, there is no critical mass of people with enough of an interest in railways that will put their money where their mouth is or roll up their sleeves get stuck in.

Add to that, the lack of suitable sites near large centres of population to support with both labour/bums on seats.

There may have been suitable sites in the past as in back in the 1960's, but there would have been no interest (see point 1) and no disposable income/leisure time to develop same.

railer201

Whatever happened to the 'Oslo Bar' heritage group, a few years back now, who weren't exactly promising a heritage railway, but were into 'prospecting' for a suitable preserved railway line - and sallied forth shrouded in a cloak of secrecy to 'negotiate' with some landowners somewhere - and that's the last that was heard from them ?

I'm afraid I concur with Del Monte on this one.

Del.Monte

railer201 wrote: »

Whatever happened to the 'Oslo Bar' heritage group, a few years back now, who weren't exactly promising a heritage railway, but were into 'prospecting' for a suitable preserved railway line - and sallied forth shrouded in a cloak of secrecy to 'negotiate' with some landowners somewhere - and that's the last that was heard from them ?

I'm afraid I concur with Del Monte on this one.

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/1452/Heritage-Railway-meetings?page=#.V_UtbyQ22So

savagethegoat

some fascinating detail emerging which we can probably learn from. Thx people

Del.Monte

Bit of background about West of Ireland Steam Railway Association below. Very optimistic stuff. WISRA was a shambles long before the 'shadowy' influences mentioned earlier, and one of the biggest fiascos was the infamous raffle for tickets for James Sherwood's newly launched "Orient Express". As far as I know the draw never took place as the cost of the prize tickets was astronomical. The Association then resorted to selling rubber noses to the few people who sought out their shop at Attymon Junction.

Meanwhile they failed to attract a single member from Loughrea which was quite an achievement given how hard the town fought to keep the railway over the previous twenty years. The few volunteers, myself included traveled miles to Attymon whereas local support was thin on the ground. We soon saw the light and left them to their own devices.

When the new regime took over there was a great deal of 'messing' on the branch which, in one incident, is supposed to have triggered the Galway Major Accident Plan! I'll say no more...

hurricanemk1c

May I ask a question? How many here have actually been involved in the preservation movement here? It is very easy to deride and down-play the roles of groups when you have nothing to do with them (or even that area). The two main failings behind all of the groups that didn't make it was money and people. Both lack of money and lack of people as well as some unsuited people who power went to their heads or had a closed shop attitude to fresh blood

It's interesting to note that the two railways mentioned earlier, "the 'plaything' at Stradbally" and "the strange incarnation which is the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway" are the only regularly operating preserved railways in the Republic of Ireland that are a reasonable commercial success, as well as attracting young volunteers. Both have active social media accounts as well. Dromod is currently in a state of flux due to track work issues, T&D not operating, West Clare no-one really knows, Fintown is beautiful but remote (like WCR). However the efforts of those at those locations (Carrick-on-Suir is a workshop base rather than a railway) should be commended, with a lot of items preserved that would otherwise have disappeared many decades ago.

5rtytry56

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

as well as some unsuited people who power went to their heads or had a closed shop attitude to fresh blood

- a blight in Ireland unfortunately, which affects the Irish hobby scene as well. To illustrate my point, this veers slightly off topic but here goes: There have been a number of Model Railways open to the public over the past number of years. Some are quite successful like the Fry model railway. ....And then there is the Model Railway located outside Dublin which was featured on Nationwide in 2013. I visited it on one occasion. I tried to visit it later again, only to be told when I arrived that it was closed early that day. Their facebook page has'nt been updated for ages either.

that's my spake.

Sinkyou

These people have an Axe to Grind. The have a second Agenda.

savagethegoat

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

May I ask a question? How many here have actually been involved in the preservation movement here? It is very easy to deride and down-play the roles of groups when you have nothing to do with them (or even that area). The two main failings behind all of the groups that didn't make it was money and people. Both lack of money and lack of people as well as some unsuited people who power went to their heads or had a closed shop attitude to fresh blood

It's interesting to note that the two railways mentioned earlier, "the 'plaything' at Stradbally" and "the strange incarnation which is the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway" are the only regularly operating preserved railways in the Republic of Ireland that are a reasonable commercial success, as well as attracting young volunteers. Both have active social media accounts as well. Dromod is currently in a state of flux due to track work issues, T&D not operating, West Clare no-one really knows, Fintown is beautiful but remote (like WCR). However the efforts of those at those locations (Carrick-on-Suir is a workshop base rather than a railway) should be commended, with a lot of items preserved that would otherwise have disappeared many decades ago.

welcome to the Forum. The two railways you mention actually have little to do with Railway Preservation, commendable though they are.

whisky_galore

savagethegoat wrote: »

welcome to the Forum. The two railways you mention actually have little to do with Railway Preservation, commendable though they are.

Yes, unlike sites in the uk where the attention to period detail is like stepping onto a movie set, Stradbally and the Waterford line are a collection of random ex-industrial items and new-built stock pressed into passenger carrying which they never did in their operating life..although I doubt that many of the Irish public could tell the difference anyway as they're all 'choo-choo trains' and 'Thomas the Tanks' to them...even diesels...

savagethegoat

I agree , without wishing to take away from the success they do enjoy. It's just it doesn't educate anyone as to how the Railway used to be, which is the whole point to me.

5rtytry56

whisky_galore wrote: »

many of the Irish public could tell the difference anyway as they're all 'choo-choo trains' and 'Thomas the Tanks' to them...even diesels...

more precisely most of the Irish public don't care to tell the difference....great day out for little Tommy

flyingsnail

5rtytry56 wrote: »

more precisely most of the Irish public don't care to tell the difference....great day out for little Tommy

I think people need to realise and accept this, you are never going to run a railway here based on enthusiasts, to make money you need to sell to the public. The simple fact is that without money you are going nowhere, so commercial facts have to take precedent over what enthusiasts want.

whisky_galore

I think the public here have a mindset that such things would be lovely, provided someone else did the work and stumped up the cash, that is the situ with heritage as a whole, not just railways.

All well disposed to the idea and good intentions and that's it.

The govt/board of works/county council/CIE/*insert name here* should do something.

savagethegoat

some of them actually stand in the way of it.

whisky_galore

savagethegoat wrote: »

some of them actually stand in the way of it.

Esp. landowners are notorious and anyone suspicious of 'blow-ins' which is a feature of rural Ireland.

5rtytry56

savagethegoat wrote: »

some of them actually stand in the way of it.

Parents of Young Families here are easily disposed alright to make 'Health & Safety' complaints. And they're always "right"

"but poor Tommy got such a bad fright from the hissing steam"

5rtytry56

whisky_galore wrote: »

Esp. landowners are notorious and anyone suspicious of 'blow-ins' which is a feature of rural Ireland.

unless they can get enough monetary "compensation" from the project.

Del.Monte

flyingsnail wrote: »

I think people need to realise and accept this, you are never going to run a railway here based on enthusiasts, to make money you need to sell to the public. The simple fact is that without money you are going nowhere, so commercial facts have to take precedent over what enthusiasts want.

However, if you're not going for an authentic recreation why bother at all? Left to their own devices, as the Clonakilty Model Railway Village and the Blennerville people were, and this is the outcome.



Blennerville Station prior to restoration. The old platform was still in situ as were all the mile posts in as far as Tralee. All now gone.



The 'new' Blennerville station with standard gauge height platform topped off with CIE/Euro cobble is a travesty.



As for the outsized carriages with their domestic door handles and ghastly interiors.



The carriages dwarfed poor old 5T as lampooned on this rare postcard.

Why not go the full hog, tar over the trackbed and put a theme park type road train on it.

savagethegoat

that was suggested recently!


contrast with the following . Shut since the 1930s, original coaches sourced and rebuilt, ditto original station, suitable locos sourced and a replica of original loco being built

whisky_galore

^^ There is a huge following in England (remember the whole Little Trains of Wales thing was kicked off by English, not Welsh 'cranks')
For anyone not au fait with the whole thing over there, full size main line steam locos are being crowd-funded and built from scratch in the 21st century, as far as I know this doesn't happen in any other country.

Del.Monte

whisky_galore wrote: »

^^ There is a huge following in England (remember the whole Little Trains of Wales thing was kicked off by English, not Welsh 'cranks')
For anyone not au fait with the whole thing over there, full size main line steam locos are being crowd-funded and built from scratch in the 21st century, as far as I know this doesn't happen in any other country.

Agreed, but there is huge interest in Irish railways in the UK too - as evidenced by the formation of the Irish Traction Group - and this has never been properly tapped into. Operations like Blennerville have put a lot of people off getting involved in Ireland.

savagethegoat

It should be a winner Del....original loco on original route with stunning scenery and a ship canal parallel, next to a stunning rebuilt windmill and a wetlands project on the main road to Dingle and with the Rose of Tralee on the doorstep each year. Why isn't it?

whisky_galore

savagethegoat wrote: »

It should be a winner Del....original loco on original route with stunning scenery and a ship canal parallel, next to a stunning rebuilt windmill and a wetlands project on the main road to Dingle and with the Rose of Tralee on the doorstep each year. Why isn't it?

Because people didn't care and didn't value it enough. I think they don't even miss it.

I doubt if any of the inhabitants kicked up a fuss when it closed, or wrote letters to the paper, their TD or councillor.
Now if it was planning permission, or the state of the roads it would be a different matter.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

It should be a winner Del....original loco on original route with stunning scenery and a ship canal parallel, next to a stunning rebuilt windmill and a wetlands project on the main road to Dingle and with the Rose of Tralee on the doorstep each year. Why isn't it?

Zero enthusiast involvement. It's been proven time and again that to stand a chance of success it must be enthusiast driven not an AnCO/FAS scheme.

savagethegoat

well it wasn't zero,and still isn't , but not enough enthusiast input and too much influence by people who know nothing about railways.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

well it wasn't zero,and still isn't , but not enough enthusiast input and too much influence by people who know nothing about railways.

Crossed wires - I was talking about the original project. The reason that the current one will not succeed is that local vested interests will not let them in - same as the first time.

I don't think rural Ireland has the population density or interest to maintain many preserved rail lines. I imagine it takes a lot of time and money to keep them going.

I don't think we have as great an attachment to railways as in more densely populated countries.

Contrast that with say the vintage tractor movements - something people have a direct connection with from their past, can be done individually.

savagethegoat

Del.Monte wrote: »

Crossed wires - I was talking about the original project. The reason that the current one will not succeed is that local vested interests will not let them in - same as the first time.

that's it exactly. The people who failed the first time around haven't gone away as they say

hurricanemk1c

savagethegoat wrote: »

welcome to the Forum. The two railways you mention actually have little to do with Railway Preservation, commendable though they are.

To preserve - to keep alive or in existence; make lasting.

Hmm, so a 1949 steam loco, a 1952 ESB loco and a 1958 Bord na Mona loco in service isn't preservation? In reality, industrial railways were a real mixture of purpose built, rebuilt and knocked together stock.

If we are going "whole hog" and re-creating exactly what happened 20-50-100 years ago, I would expect the Bluebell to refurbish the Mark 1 and 2 stock they have to get rid of the modern lighting, ETH cabling, only run stock that actually ran over that route, one era (so no BR Standards running beside Victorian stock in Victorian colours) - the list goes on and on. The aim of all railways is to make money, and that regularly involves historical sacrifice (such as Thomas events).

As has been said, the main market isn't die hard rivet counters but ordinary folk who want a train ride. The number of people who don't know BnM have a railway system is amazing and they learn something. Isn't that more worthwhile that pandering to every miniscule historical accuracy?

Del.Monte

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

To preserve - to keep alive or in existence; make lasting.

Hmm, so a 1949 steam loco, a 1952 ESB loco and a 1958 Bord na Mona loco in service isn't preservation? In reality, industrial railways were a real mixture of purpose built, rebuilt and knocked together stock.

If we are going "whole hog" and re-creating exactly what happened 20-50-100 years ago, I would expect the Bluebell to refurbish the Mark 1 and 2 stock they have to get rid of the modern lighting, ETH cabling, only run stock that actually ran over that route, one era (so no BR Standards running beside Victorian stock in Victorian colours) - the list goes on and on. The aim of all railways is to make money, and that regularly involves historical sacrifice (such as Thomas events).

As has been said, the main market isn't die hard rivet counters but ordinary folk who want a train ride. The number of people who don't know BnM have a railway system is amazing and they learn something. Isn't that more worthwhile that pandering to every miniscule historical accuracy?

Okay. you're clearly put out that I called Stradbally 'a plaything' but that's clearly what it is. That said, I'm not trying to take away from it or the activities of its working members.

However, your nonsense about the Bluebell is just that. Most preserved railways across the water take their heritage very seriously, understand that the general public don't have the same level of interest but realise that they are needed to pay for their operation. They cater for them without ignoring their historic equipment which, in the case of most enthusiasts, is the reason they get involved in the first place.

Del.Monte

A few pictures of the doomed Great Southern Railway Preservation Society project.



During 1987/88 the society's working members were totally committed to recovering sleepers from the Mallow Beet Factory sidings - a dangerous, futile task as the sleepers ended up on the Fenit line. The Steam crane in the picture is now 'displayed' inthe station car park at Mallow.



On the 14th May, 1989 CIE removed most of the society's rolling stock from Mallow to Rathpeacon with no prior consultation. Within a few weeks the stock was fit for scrap which it duly was within a couple of years.



Mallow shed was demolished to make way for the new car park at the station. The end.

whisky_galore

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think rural Ireland has the population density or interest to maintain many preserved rail lines. I imagine it takes a lot of time and money to keep them going.

I don't think we have as great an attachment to railways as in more densely populated countries.

Contrast that with say the vintage tractor movements - something people have a direct connection with from their past, can be done individually.

I suspect part of the reason for the English being so good at this is the part they played inventing railways and the steam locomotive and exporting that idea over pretty much the entire world. Call it some sort of national pride.

Over here, railways would have been seen as a foreign imposition of an elite, a legitimate target during the so-called Troubles and a drain on ratepayers or these days the taxpayer.

Del.Monte

During 1989 the Irish Narrow Gauge Trust acquired two original Tralee & Dingle carriages from a yard in Callan, Co.Kilkenny. These had been purchased from Ennis on closure of the West Clare and hauled by road to Callan by the simple expedient of adding an axle to the middle of each underframe. One of these carriages survives at Dromod and would surely be reasonably cheap to replicate for a new Tralee operation - don't hold your breath.

whisky_galore

Deleted User wrote: »

Contrast that with say the vintage tractor movements - something people have a direct connection with from their past, can be done individually.

Old tractors are not hard to come by, hundreds of them still lie in ditches, are pretty cheap to purchase, manageable to haul around and store, apart from the rarest it's easy to obtain parts and relatively easy to restore as they are quite tough little things. Far easier to restore a basket case tractor as opposed to a basket case car. As well as that you can do all this on your tod and you're not obliged to join any group that you're liable to fall out with.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

I suspect part of the reason for the English being so good at this is the part they played inventing railways and the steam locomotive and exporting that idea over pretty much the entire world. Call it some sort of national pride.

Over here, railways would have been seen as a foreign imposition of an elite, a legitimate target during the so-called Troubles and a drain on ratepayers or these days the taxpayer.

There is certainly a certain amount of national pride about the history in England but I don't think they aren't preserved here because they are foreign - they simply weren't a part of life for many here compared to say growing up commuting by steam train and knowing people who worked on the railway.

I had a quick look at a map of preserved railways in the UK - they seem mostly to be in the densely populated industrial areas, not much in rural Scotland.

me_right_one

I'm a complete outsider here. So my opinion is every bit as valid as anyone else's. But, to me the point of preserving a railway line (or any historical artifact) can be broken down as follows, in order of importance:

In case you get it back working again / need it in future. This is definitely the case with tractors, military buildings / equipment, civic architecture. It was probably a factor in the "Save X line" type preservation societies in the first place.

To appreciate the

heritage of something, not just the historical accuracy. For example, Dublins Georgian houses are preserved, and rightly so. But they are in use as offices, homes, shops. They are not kept in authentic tenement state complete with 4 families living in one room! Likewise with Newgrange - it is being used as a tourist attraction, which funds its preservation. The interpretive centre is definitely not authentic, but without it, you would not appreciate the significance of the site in ancient Celtic Ireland's heartland. And they dont offer burnt sacrifices there anymore either! To me, keeping a CIE Diesel alongside a 1920's steam loco is perfectly acceptable - at least they're still alive! Likewise with the CIE/Euro cobble mentioned earlier, so what? If enough money is generated, THEN you can change it back to the original.

Finally, its just a bit of fun. If people start tediously splitting hairs over how original something is, then whats the point. I'd say every Ford Capri in Ireland has been re-engined at this stage, yet you dont hear people complaining. Sure, the more original the better, but you have to be realistic. You have to know where to draw the line, and for me its where the fun/education/appreciation stops. If it starts getting political, good luck!

whisky_galore

me_right_one wrote: »

To me, keeping a CIE Diesel alongside a 1920's steam loco is perfectly acceptable - at least they're still alive!

They did actually work side by side in the 50's and 60's, CIE back then was a mix of the modern and Victorian/Edwardian era antiques, but I see your point.