Senior gardaí ‘tried to destroy’ whistleblower

Ted111 · 05-10-2016 02:27PM

cursai wrote: »

these people do not seem to be legitimate whistleblowers.

If they had nothing to say then their bosses wouldn't have made them intelligence targets. That by the way could mean anything up to and including monitoring internet and phone calls, gps tracking movements, watching them at home and other settings.

Your making the assumption that it is mccabe and wilson. There were and are a number of others.

Regardless of any revelations in and of themselves the sanctioning and actioning of illegal surveillance of these employees should get these people sacked and before the criminal courts.

toptom · 05-10-2016 02:28PM

An Garda Síochána are a credit to this country, Our bravest and our best so this nonsense about them being corrupt is just that, Nonsense. Every workplace has a few bad apples people who step out of line etc The guards are no different.

Your Face · 05-10-2016 02:29PM

toptom wrote: »

An Garda S och na are a credit to this country, Our bravest and our best so this nonsense about them being corrupt is just that, Nonsense. Every workplace has a few bad apples people who step out of line etc The guards are no different.

Sorry Garda

Water John · 05-10-2016 02:29PM

Don't know, but they seem to be at reasonably high level.
One accepts though disapproves that informal downing of someone not marching to the one beat of all organisations, workplaces etc.
Here it is the systematic nature of it that is very troubling.
This is the equivalent of bullying being not only condoned but being encouraged.

This is not about looking for a head again, in the great words of Ruari Quinn.
Radical overhaul for the good of the police force and ourselves.

Hopefully, Tomtom has his/her tongue in their cheek.

Floppybits · 05-10-2016 02:30PM

toptom wrote: »

An Garda S och na are a credit to this country, Our bravest and our best so this nonsense about them being corrupt is just that, Nonsense. Every workplace has a few bad apples people who step out of line etc The guards are no different.

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Noiron is that you?

[/font]

Water John · 05-10-2016 03:19PM

Ask Denis Bradley to come up with a whole renewal programme for the Gardai.

toptom · 05-10-2016 03:32PM

Floppybits wrote: »

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Noiron is that you? [/font]

No Im just a person sick of seeing the gardaí being treated as wrongdoers.

golfball37 · 05-10-2016 03:36PM

The commissioner who should have never been appointed in the first place simply has to go now. She was well aware of this carry on and along with the findings in Fennelly about her knowledge of other things, she hasn't a leg to stand on anymore.

if the govt don't back calls for her to go then we confirm Ireland as nothing more than an old boys club.

Ted111 · 05-10-2016 03:42PM

golfball37 wrote: »

The commissioner who should have never been appointed in the first place simply has to go now. She was well aware of this carry on and along with the findings in Fennelly about her knowledge of other things, she hasn't a leg to stand on anymore.

if the govt don't back calls for her to go then we confirm Ireland as nothing more than an old boys club.

Noirin and Frances. Peas in a pod. And the supposedly independent Inspectorate.
After initially deciding to question her about promoting her husband they then rolled over and accepted it placidly. They're part of the same cosy cartel.

Water John · 05-10-2016 04:06PM

The Gardai operate on behalf of the people. They also operate with the consent and goodwill of the same people. This is being discarded and good Gardai on the ground are the ones that will suffer that loss.

Muahahaha · 05-10-2016 04:59PM

Water John wrote: »

Mick Clifford is a top class journalist. The Examiner would not run his reportage unless they were absolutely sure of him.
Attacking Mick is pathetic and has form on previous threads.
The culture within the Gardai has to be deconstructed and rebuilt, similar to what was done with the PSNI.
This has been obvious since the Donegal fiasco. What's that 10/15 years ago.

Has any Govn't the liathriodi to do it?

There was a good point made on VinB last night that successive Ministers of Justice have known well about the problems at the top level of the Gardai for decades now but not one has had the balls to grab the nettle and truly reform it. Indeed Alan Shatter fell on his sword for the very reason that he did nothing until his position became untenable. The point that was being made is that senior management in the Gardai are much like the permanent govt in that they know Ministers of Justice come and go while they stay in their positions and the rotten culture that has bedded in continues ad infintum.

But even when Ministers for Justice do have the opportunity to reform they cock that up too. Fitzgerald had the chance to bypass Noirin OSullivan and appoint an outsider as Commissioner, someone with international experience at police force reform. But instead she chose the insider who is now just carrying on the rotten culture at the top that she inherited from Callinan. Then on top of that we have no less that three oversight bodies for the Gardai and yet none of them have been given enough legislative powers to actually regulate them properly.

seamus · 05-10-2016 09:00PM

golfball37 wrote: »

The commissioner who should have never been appointed in the first place simply has to go now. She was well aware of this carry on and along with the findings in Fennelly about her knowledge of other things, she hasn't a leg to stand on anymore.

How do you know she was well aware of it?

Hilarious in Irish politics. You get appointed last week and then get blamed for something which happened 3 years ago and people call for you to resign because of it.

I do understand people raising eyebrows about the commissioner, considering she would have been senior when this was going on.

But Clare Daly calling for the justice minister to stand down? These people are fncking idiots.

Water John · 05-10-2016 09:13PM

Responsibility rests with those in authority at any given time.
Sacking the next round won't achieve much or just about the same as the last time.
Complete revamp of its culture is what is required. Not a cosmetic solution.

Ted111 · 05-10-2016 09:37PM

seamus wrote: »

How do you know she was well aware of it?

If she wasn't aware then that would suggest that she was not in control of her police force i.e incompetent. She is usually out with her big smiley face telling everyone that whistle blowers are valued and encouraged. Is she making those remarks based on fact or is she blind and ignorant hidden in an office not knowing what's going on but dreaming up wishful thinking.
This was a national issue and a priority one issue in her remit this year.
So she is either complicit or incompetent.
In any event certainly a resignation matter.
Also a matter for the DPP. The surveillance carried out by these senior officers on their own employees sounds criminal.

seamus · 06-10-2016 08:17AM

Ted111 wrote: »

If she wasn't aware then that would suggest that she was not in control of her police force i.e incompetent.

Not necessarily. She was only appointed in November 2014 and the allegations go back "a number of years". So they might well have been happening 5 or 6 years before she even got a sniff of the commissioner's position.

And when appointed, the perpetrators are hardly going to go and tell her all about what they're doing.

This is why jumping to conclusions and immediately calling for heads on spikes is ridiculous. For all we know, the next person who'd be appointed Commissioner is the ringleader of this alleged activity and they're being handed the top spot on a plate.

_Kaiser_ · 06-10-2016 11:29AM

seamus wrote: »

Not necessarily. She was only appointed in November 2014 and the allegations go back "a number of years". So they might well have been happening 5 or 6 years before she even got a sniff of the commissioner's position.

And when appointed, the perpetrators are hardly going to go and tell her all about what they're doing.

This is why jumping to conclusions and immediately calling for heads on spikes is ridiculous. For all we know, the next person who'd be appointed Commissioner is the ringleader of this alleged activity and they're being handed the top spot on a plate.

Didn't O'Sullivan come from a HR background within AGS? Pretty poor reflection on her ability in that role as well then.

But it's no surprise that this behaviour has apparently continued under her watch. After all, she sat by her former boss while he called whistleblowers "disgusting" and was appointed by a Minister who herself was appointed (besides for being a Kenny loyalist) to settle things down within AGS after the Callinan/Shatter mess

Hibrasil · 06-10-2016 11:56AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

But even when Ministers for Justice do have the opportunity to reform they cock that up too. Fitzgerald had the chance to bypass Noirin OSullivan and appoint an outsider as Commissioner, someone with international experience at police force reform. But instead she chose the insider who is now just carrying on the rotten culture at the top that she inherited from Callinan..

Sorry to say but what do you expect from a Dublin 4 (Dublin South East) electoral "reject" who was parachuted into Dublin Mid-West and uses a D22 (Clondalkin) address on the ballot paper while living in Dublin 15 (Castleknock).
And brings Kenneth Egan on board to play a suporting role.

The gender factor was probably a factor in the decision making process.

Water John · 06-10-2016 11:57AM

Ah, she's tipped for next Taoiseach.

mynamejeff · 06-10-2016 01:10PM

im sure the people Francis worked for in social care have glowing reports :-)

Floppybits · 06-10-2016 02:13PM

toptom wrote: »

Floppybits wrote: »

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]Noiron is that you? [/font]

No Im just a person sick of seeing the garda being treated as wrongdoers.

You are either having a laugh or are trying to be a WUM.
You maybe sick of Gardai being treated as wrong doers but their carry on in Donegal, their treatment of the whistle blowers and now with these current revelations about how senior Gardai behaved has hardly done their reputation any favours, now has it?

Moo Moo Land · 06-10-2016 02:17PM

The Gardai are rotten to the core and the new commissioner is compromised. Fair play to all the whistleblowers.

_Kaiser_ · 06-10-2016 02:23PM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

The Gardai are rotten to the core and the new commissioner is compromised. Fair play to all the whistleblowers.

I'd have to agree.. While there are decent individuals in AGS, the organisation as a whole is tainted beyond recovery at this stage and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up by competent/proven outsiders

Moo Moo Land · 06-10-2016 02:27PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'd have to agree.. While there are decent individuals in AGS, the organisation as a whole is tainted beyond recovery at this stage and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up by competent/proven outsiders

It wont happen. We will need plenty more scandals and whistleblowers before anyone in power shouts Stop. It's the corrupt Irish way.

golfball37 · 06-10-2016 03:32PM

The sad thing about these scandals and the immediate denials from those at the top is it diminishes the respect afforded to the Gardaí who have done nothing wrong.

The guys making the allegations here are senior Gardaí with an unblemished record and a vocation to fighting crime.

Moo Moo Land · 06-10-2016 04:05PM

golfball37 wrote: »

The sad thing about these scandals and the immediate denials from those at the top is it diminishes the respect afforded to the Gardaí who have done nothing wrong.

The guys making the allegations here are senior Gardaí with an unblemished record and a vocation to fighting crime.

Ah will you stop. I hate this "a few bad eggs" excuses. I heard the same nonsense with the Catholic Church where there was a culture of cover-up and everyone was complicit in their knowledge and inaction over child abuse.

The culture in the Gardai is rotten. There should be way more whistleblowers than there actually are but they are in fear of their colleagues and what they will do and what the inevitable cover-up will involve (discreditation etc). Senior Gardai felt safe enough to send group texts to loads of other Gardai to try and discredit the whistleblower. It's fcuking disgusting but for the culture to change, you need to fire the corrupt senior Gardai and show the rest of the Gardai best practices in open responsible behaviour. Anyone trying to stifle whistleblowers should feel the full force of the law.

steddyeddy · 06-10-2016 06:09PM

Let's look at this logically. I have no time for some of the politicians calling for heads but something here doesn't add up.

First of all the new commissioner was Callinan's right hand person. She was in the room when Callinan referred to Whistleblowers as "disgusting".

I find it extremely unlikely that she didn't know the whistleblowers wouldn't be treated well.

steddyeddy · 06-10-2016 06:11PM

seamus wrote: »

This is great. This is an illustration that a real desire for change is starting to get a foothold within the force. The hardest part of attacking corruption and the "old boys club" of any organisation is breaking the unspoken and institutional processes that tend to poison the minds of new members.

New members are never going to go against the flow, and once they've been "educated" on "how things are", they become complicit in these nefarious activities and start defending them.

That two senior Gardai are now coming out in defence of another whistleblower, who I'll presume is probably Maurice McCabe, shows that this attitude is beginning to break down; that more and more Gardai want to route out this corruption and more and more are willing to come forward.

Whether there are any actual repercussions is somewhat a side-issue here; the more decent Gardai who are willing to stand up and blow that whistle, the fewer bad apples there will be who are willing to be blatant about what they're doing.

All forces have corruption; the aim should be to retreat this corruption into quiet corners and catch it when it happens; not to promote it and allow it to be endorsed from the top.

You can't think that repercussions are a side issue to A) How the Gardai progress from this and

how the public view the Gardai?

Hibrasil · 06-10-2016 06:36PM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

. It's the corrupt Irish way.

Somebody, I heard, once said that the Irish taught all others how to be corrupt! Regretfully !!!

tayto lover · 06-10-2016 06:44PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

how many scumbags do you think senior garda management deal with every day ?

this isnt a story about the man or woman on the beat. this is a story about management of the ranks above superintendent which are politically appointed thus tend towards corruption.

for my money a uk style police management by qualified civilian staff would be a good step

also Michael Clifford has a consistently anti garda agenda which is often ill informed inaccurate and needlessly provocative.

I have been saying for years now that the selection of senior Garda personnel and Judges should be taken away from the politicians. All they are doing is protecting their own interests by appointing their own puppets. It should be done by an independent appointments board.

Dyr · 06-10-2016 06:55PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

for their own good they need the RUC treatment

Sure we were told the gardee did'nt need to worry about the patten commission recommendations ..sure weren't they great lads already

I reckon you could fire the top 50 gardee from the commissioner down without any ill effect, they're just at the top for services rendered.

Senior gardaí ‘tried to destroy’ whistleblower

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