Women to go on strike in Poland over abortion law

Nomis21 · 02-10-2016 11:31PM

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

He sounds flaky. She can do better.

Yes, exactly

RDM_83 again · 02-10-2016 11:48PM

Even if your pro-life the way the polish government has gone about this is not good in terms of the way they have pushed this through.
Its a good governance issue too.

RobertKK · 03-10-2016 12:51AM

Supporting the lives of all is a human right.

The Wolverine · 03-10-2016 01:09AM

I've often thought of the her body her choice thing when it comes to say the woman wanting it but the man not wanting it.

I don't know really what a man can do if he wants a child and the mother doesn't I suppose break up is the only option really.

It would never happen but say if a law came in where the man could sign a document (say it must be before the birth is registered) saying he wished for a termination and the mother didn't where it means he signs away all rights to the child and cannot be pursued for maintenance or look for any attempt to be a father in future.

Would many be for that I wonder?

Nomis21 · 03-10-2016 01:22AM

The Wolverine wrote: »

I've often thought of the her body her choice thing when it comes to say the woman wanting it but the man not wanting it.

I don't know really what a man can do if he wants a child and the mother doesn't I suppose break up is the only option really.

It would never happen but say if a law came in where the man could sign a document (say it must be before the birth is registered) saying he wished for a termination and the mother didn't where it means he signs away all rights to the child and cannot be pursued for maintenance or look for any attempt to be a father in future.

Would many be for that I wonder?

If there was to be such a document then it would be better if he signed that document before having sex with the woman and see what his chances were...

The Wolverine · 03-10-2016 01:26AM

Nomis21 wrote: »

If there was to be such a document then it would be better if he signed that document before having sex with the woman and see what his chances were...

But we often hear how abortion should be available for women as protection doesn't always work, so why not similar for a man is what's I'm getting at.

The Wolverine · 03-10-2016 01:33AM

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, exactly

How he can be labeled as bad and she can do better if he wants to leave her if she has an abortion? Is he meant to just shut his mouth and agree with it?

If she wants one it's her choice and fair enough but in no way is he bad if leaves her cause she aborts their child.

Grayson · 03-10-2016 01:34AM

The Wolverine wrote: »

But we often hear how abortion should be available for women as protection doesn't always work, so why not similar for a man is what's I'm getting at.

Because there are risks in having a baby and there are even risks (although smaller than colonoscopies) in having a termination.

Plus can you imagine any law where you force any person to undergo a medical procedure against their will.

The Wolverine · 03-10-2016 01:47AM

Grayson wrote: »

Because there are risks in having a baby and there are even risks (although smaller than colonoscopies) in having a termination.

Plus can you imagine any law where you force any person to undergo a medical procedure against their will.

But I haven't mentioned zero of that? I wouldnt want a woman forced to have or abort.

If she wants to have it, her risk. If she wants to terminate her risk.

What I'm saying is a hypothetical if the man doesn't want it and she does she's willing to take the risk of pregnancy you mention but he can sign away all responsibility pre birth aka maintenance and any future parental rights if he changes his mind.

As if a woman keeps a child a man doesn't want he still has to pay for maintenance.

If she wants it and he doesnt, sign a declaration saying they've discussed it and she wishes to keep it and he doesnt, sign away his rights. If she doesn't want it and he does well you can't force her to abort so he'll unfortunately just have to grieve as break up is the only real option in that case.

Of course theres the issues where loads of lads sign away parental rights and the state has to cough up I suppose an interesting one.

keeponhurling · 03-10-2016 02:52PM

We cannot have mass strikes every time a political decision needs to be made.

It would be shooting oursevles in the foot, and ironically gives politicans one more problem to deal with - so not likely to speed things up really.

omen80 · 03-10-2016 03:01PM

The simplest solution would be to just make it legal to have an abortion. If people are against it then they don't have to have one.

keeponhurling · 03-10-2016 03:04PM

omen80 wrote: »

The simplest solution would be to just make it legal to have an abortion. If people are against it then they don't have to have one.

genius, can't believe that nobody ever thought of that before.

And to think this national debate has raged for decades.

omen80 · 03-10-2016 03:09PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

genius, can't believe that nobody ever thought of that before.

And to think this national debate has raged for decades.

I'll get my coat....

Annasopra · 03-10-2016 03:13PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

I think it's a mistake by the Poles to make it a feminist issue.

It has always been a feminist and a human rights issue.

Annasopra · 03-10-2016 03:16PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Fair point but then in some ways the Dunnes Stores Apartheid strikers shows strikes can also affect wider public policy.

KingBrian2 · 03-10-2016 03:54PM

Well the strike did do what it was meant to do, namely gain attention to the issue of abortion. As no legislation has yet been passed it still has not solved the issue either. It won't happen until the TD's elected or any politician elected are elected on an abortion platform.

chopperbyrne · 03-10-2016 04:05PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Religion

Not surprising considering they're even more Catholic than Ireland.

posturingpat · 03-10-2016 05:38PM

Seems like this might turn into a debate on Abortion in Ireland again so i think this highly respected journalists article sums it up as well as any http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/09/29/poll-are-you-a-baby-killer-or-a-religious-facist/

ceadaoin. · 03-10-2016 05:53PM

Abortion isn't a women's issue now? Ffs

Yes it's a human rights issue too, the rights of women to have bodily autonomy and not be treated as incubators. It is not a male issue and never should be

arayess · 03-10-2016 06:40PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Abortion isn't a women's issue now? Ffs

Yes it's a human rights issue too, the rights of women to have bodily autonomy and not be treated as incubators. It is not a male issue and never should be

if the child is a man's child then yes it is.
his future and emotional wellbeing are tied up in this as well as a women.
it's for both parties.

your logic is bizarre....could a man expand that argument in family court and say children/child birth is a woman thing so he shouldn't pay maintenance....??
no I don't hear feminists/ liberals championing that ...oddly enough..

ceadaoin. · 03-10-2016 07:31PM

arayess wrote: »

if the child is a man's child then yes it is.
his future and emotional wellbeing are tied up in this as well as a women.
it's for both parties.

your logic is bizarre....could a man expand that argument or family court and say children/child birth is a woman thing so he shouldn't pay maintenance....??
no I don't hear feminists/ liberals championing that ...oddly enough..

Child birth is a 'woman thing'. And so is pregnancy.

Child rearing should be the responsibility of both parents

Galwayguy35 · 03-10-2016 07:56PM

Nomis21 wrote: »

Are there not women who are prepared to lose their job to support human rights?

Men too I think, although in Poland it seems to be very much a female issue by reading this article.

Why don't you start the ball rolling yourself and go on strike instead of blowing hot air on an internet forum about it and asking others to do it.

I'll be watching the news to see if there is a bit about a man striking outside his workplace over abortion.

JuliusCaesar · 03-10-2016 08:00PM

arayess wrote: »

if the child is a man's child then yes it is.
his future and emotional wellbeing are tied up in this as well as a women.
it's for both parties.

your logic is bizarre....could a man expand that argument or family court and say children/child birth is a woman thing so he shouldn't pay maintenance....??
no I don't hear feminists/ liberals championing that ...oddly enough..

Must look up the psychological studies on this.

But wait, you must know them already. Do tell.

i could do with some help on my project.

.

Dick phelan · 03-10-2016 09:55PM

There's no real thing as human rights, there made up things to suit a certain argument, who actually decides what a human right is? To some people a house if a human right, gay marriage is a human right, abortion is a human right, it's all nonsense depending on your argument you can use human rights for anything, a pro life person can easily argue the most important human right is being denied by abortion, that being the right to your life, whenever i see stuff like the UN lecturing us about "human rights" i just dismiss them tbh the UN doesn't seem so concerned with the human rights problems in Saudi Arabia. "Abortion is a human rights issue" i think both pro life and choice people would argue that, the only problem is there arguing about different rights no one side is really right to use the "human rights" argument.

yermanoffthetv · 03-10-2016 10:20PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Must look up the psychological studies on this.

But wait, you must know them already. Do tell.

i could do with some help on my project.

.

http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1016/j.jmhg.2004.06.004

That would be a good one to start with.

"Abstract:

This article reviews wide-ranging literature with professional and theoretical perspectives. The methods included case studies, qualitative interviews, surveys of selected clinic populations, prospective epidemiological studies, and analyses of nationally representative databases. The review is organized by the stage in the paternal lifecycle: pregnancy, labor and delivery, postpartum period, parenthood, and child custody with the following key findings:

Pregnancy: recent research reveals that pregnancy induces detectable physiological changes in male partners. Case studies indicate that some fathers-to-be experience a variety of physical symptoms that mimic their partner's health changes, a phenomenon referred to as couvade. But empirical research does not establish the existence of couvade on a wide-scale basis.

Labor and delivery: research reveals that the labor and delivery experience is often a difficult time for the father. Substantial percentages of men felt coerced, ill-prepared, ineffective, and/or psychologically excluded from the event.

Postpartum period: case studies and qualitative research indicate that the first year after childbirth is a time of emotional upheaval for first-time fathers, who must adapt to the presence of an infant who commands priority from his partner.

Parenthood: in the long term, the weight of evidence indicates that fatherhood is beneficial to a man's health. The health effects of fatherhood are probably mediated by a variety of other variables, including number of children, role competency, and lifestyle.

Child custody: fathers who lose custody were consistently found to be at greater risk for chronic health conditions, psychological impairment, and death. Of particular concern is the suicide risk of divorced men who become legally disenfranchised from their children."

Giacomo McGubbin · 03-10-2016 10:24PM

Zaph wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure how that's supposed to help. Maybe it could be feasible in the public sector, but I can't see too many private sector companies being supportive of large portions of their staff striking over a social issue that has nothing at all to do with the terms of their employment. If some employers really wanted to play hardball there could be a lot of women suddenly finding themselves on the dole.

yes it may be very suitably socially left wing extreme for boards, but clashes with boards extreme right wing economic ideals. So it's out.
the idea needs to be quashed. if only a way could be figured out to makes sure only union leaders went on strike, then it would be an idea worth fostering on boards.

Annasopra · 03-10-2016 11:05PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Abortion isn't a women's issue now? Ffs

Yes it's a human rights issue too, the rights of women to have bodily autonomy and not be treated as incubators. It is not a male issue and never should be

It isn't an issue exclusive to women though. Trans men are affected by this too.

runawaybishop · 03-10-2016 11:17PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Abortion isn't a women's issue now? Ffs

Yes it's a human rights issue too, the rights of women to have bodily autonomy and not be treated as incubators. It is not a male issue and never should be

Yeah right! It's got nothing to do with men. Sure they can't even get pregnant! Actually some women also can't get pregnant, their opinion doesn't matter either obviously. Or old women, they can't have kids so discount them. Actually to be fair we should conduct fertility tests on everyone before they are allowed to decide on this matter.

Anyway, people have a right to decide what sort of society they live in. This is a human rights issue and everyone gets to voice their opinion and vote.

Giacomo McGubbin · 03-10-2016 11:18PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Trans men are affected by this too.

Will people please think about the Trans men and not the Children !

Arcade_Tryer · 03-10-2016 11:35PM

Dick phelan wrote: »

There's no real thing as human rights, there made up things to suit a certain argument, who actually decides what a human right is? To some people a house if a human right, gay marriage is a human right, abortion is a human right, it's all nonsense depending on your argument you can use human rights for anything, a pro life person can easily argue the most important human right is being denied by abortion, that being the right to your life, whenever i see stuff like the UN lecturing us about "human rights" i just dismiss them tbh the UN doesn't seem so concerned with the human rights problems in Saudi Arabia. "Abortion is a human rights issue" i think both pro life and choice people would argue that, the only problem is there arguing about different rights no one side is really right to use the "human rights" argument.

You've answered your own question in relation to abortion and human rights.

Women to go on strike in Poland over abortion law

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