Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1

gizmo555 · 25-09-2016 09:09PM

mzungu wrote: »

That panel is not exactly representative of the average Irish man.

Of course not. It's exactly representative of the Irish Times, which has SFA in common with the average Irish person, male or female.

kunst nugget · 26-09-2016 09:00AM

maybe

gizmo555 wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole on the Irish Times website - all men are inherently violent and if a man, for example, aspires to a role in management, that's an expression of his inherent violence. (Don't forget, this is the guy who said he wouldn't run for elected office because he could make a more valuable contribution to society pontificating in the paper.)

O'Toole & Mullally, et al are the reason why I don't buy the IT any more - why would anyone sane pay to read this? All it is these days is a wannabee Guardian.

What’s the worst male trait?

The worst most damaging masculine trait is violence… the fact is, men hit people more than women do… Men are still encouraged in all sorts of ways to express themselves violently and that’s not just physical violence, it's psychological violence, it’s through domination. It’s through the idea that you can’t be a man unless you’re in some sort of dominant position. That’s innately violence. It produces not just the desire but perhaps the need to be in charge of someone else, particularly women.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/fintan-o-toole-the-worst-masculine-trait-is-violence-men-hit-people-more-than-women-do-1.2802966

It would have been interesting to see what his answer would have been to the question 'What is the most positive male trait?'

blue note · 26-09-2016 09:04AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

It would have been interesting to see what his answer would have been to the question 'What is the most positive male trait?'

I'd have been interested to read what the worst female trait would have been! I suspect it would be something very positive - caring too much about things, sacrificing themselves for others or some crap like that!

Sleepy · 26-09-2016 09:26AM

Darren Incalculable AcrossL wrote: »

Why oh why can we all just try to be decent human beings. This male vs female gender wars we have to put up with in our media today is no more mature than the schoolyard Nintendo vs Sega console wars in the 90s.

Ah come one now... there were some valid arguments on both sides of the Nintendo v Sega debate...

silverharp · 26-09-2016 09:43AM

Im of the opinion that if a parents today raised their sons to be like Finton they would be committing genetic death :pac:

Wibbs · 26-09-2016 09:46AM

maybe

blue note wrote: »

I'd have been interested to read what the worst female trait would have been! I suspect it would be something very positive - caring too much about things, sacrificing themselves for others or some crap like that!

Just my humble, but a lot of these men - and I've personally known quite a few in my time - are utterly beguiled by the very notion of womanhood. Notion, mind you, not the everyday normal reality of a human being that just happens to be a woman. They put this ideal and women in general on a pedestal, which of course tends to mean they put their idea of masculinity in a corresponding ditch. That idea of masculinity - again in my humble and experience - is forged at school and home and usually by absent or hectoring fathers and/or bullies. This is usually amplified by puberty where such more quiet, more studious lads tend only to view women from afar. The group in that panel are nearly all perfect fits for that model.

Sleepy · 26-09-2016 03:17PM

I'd have fallen into that category as a younger man tbh, I think it's very common amongst young lads in single-sex schools. How does someone get to their 40's without realising that women are just people too though? You'd hope that such nonsense would be knocked out of them by the time they graduated...

daithi7 · 27-09-2016 12:27AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

It would have been interesting to see what his answer would have been to the question 'What is the most positive male trait?'

Good news, is no news..... So they wouldn't ever want to post the most positive trait of anything, most especially of men!!

silverharp · 29-09-2016 07:26AM

article with the focus on men shouldnt be walking off the plantation, you cant win, do the traditional work yourself to the bone and that is sexist and, downshift and build a life around minimum wage jobs and it needs to be pointed out and shamed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-amazing-video-games-could-be-causing-a-big-problem-for-america/

Izquierdo represents a group of video-game-loving Americans who, according to new research, may help explain one of the most alarming aspects of the nation’s economic recovery: Even as the unemployment rate has fallen to low levels, an unusually large percentage of able-bodied men, particularly the young and less-educated, are either not working or not working full-time.

Most of the blame for the struggle of male, less-educated workers has been attributed to lingering weakness in the economy, particularly in male-dominated industries such as manufacturing. Yet in the new research, economists from Princeton, the University of Rochester and the University of Chicago say that an additional reason many of these young men — who don't have college degrees — are rejecting work is that they have a better alternative: living at home and enjoying video games. The decision may not even be completely conscious, but surveys suggest that young men are happier for it.

“Happiness has gone up for this group, despite employment percentages having fallen, and the percentage living with parents going up. And that’s different than for any other group,” says the University of Chicago’s Erik Hurst, an economist at the Booth School of Business who helped lead the research.

While young men might temporarily enjoy a life of leisure, the implications could be troubling for them as well as the economy. The young men aren’t gaining job experience that will better equip them to work in their 30s and 40s. That, in turn, could lead to a lifetime of decreased wages, limited opportunities and challenges such as depression and drug use — problems that the United States is already seeing in areas hit with heavy job losses......

Carlos Orange · 29-09-2016 07:54AM

No

silverharp wrote: »

article with the focus on men shouldnt be walking off the plantation, you cant win, do the traditional work yourself to the bone and that is sexist and, downshift and build a life around minimum wage jobs and it needs to be pointed out and shamed.

I don't know if there is really shaming in that article (maybe I missed it) but it will be interesting to see how society copes with the results of its negativity towards maleness and fatherhood and lack of caring about male educational achievement. How will masculinity having net negatives for young men in the UK play out in society?

silverharp · 29-09-2016 08:26AM

psinno wrote: »

I don't know if there is really shaming in that article (maybe I missed it) but it will be interesting to see how society copes with the results of its negativity towards maleness and fatherhood and lack of caring about male educational achievement. How will masculinity having net negatives for young men in the UK play out in society?

maybe shaming isn't the right word but in our supposed sexless society if men aren't giving 100% it needs to be pointed out, nobody cares if large numbers of women just have disposable retail and waitress jobs so there is a double standard here. Men playing video games is pretty much a pejorative these days even though for a lot of people it just displaces watching TV . If someone has a 9-5 job and plays 20 hours of video games a week its not different to watching TV 3 hours a night.

your graph looks about right, funny that women are more positive about masculinity than men, shocker!

Sleepy · 29-09-2016 08:35AM

psinno wrote: »

I don't know if there is really shaming in that article (maybe I missed it) but it will be interesting to see how society copes with the results of its negativity towards maleness and fatherhood and lack of caring about male educational achievement. How will masculinity having net negatives for young men in the UK play out in society?

That is one of the most depressing data visualisations I've seen in a long time.

And I work in data analytics, often working with social housing data.

py2006 · 29-09-2016 09:42AM

Students staged a walkout yesterday in protest at a university's first ever 'consent classes' aimed at preventing rape and sexual harassment on campus.

One consent class saw a quarter of freshers walk out in disgust and handfuls walked out of several of the others.

Campus activist Ben Froughi, 23, a third-year accounting student, stood outside some of the sessions handing out fliers and encouraging students to boycott the talks if they disagreed with them.

'Consent talks are patronising,' he said. 'If students really need lessons in how to say yes or no then they should not be at university.

'There is no correct way to negotiate getting someone into bed with you. In suggesting that there is, consent talks encourage women to interpret sexual experiences that have not been preceded by a lengthy, formal and sober contractual discussion as rape.

'Consent talks propagate the backward message that all women are potential victims and all men potential rapists.'

Letree · 29-09-2016 10:26AM

silverharp wrote: »

article with the focus on men shouldnt be walking off the plantation, you cant win, do the traditional work yourself to the bone and that is sexist and, downshift and build a life around minimum wage jobs and it needs to be pointed out and shamed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-amazing-video-games-could-be-causing-a-big-problem-for-america/Izquierdo represents a group of video-game-loving Americans who, according to new research, may help explain one of the most alarming aspects of the nation’s economic recovery: Even as the unemployment rate has fallen to low levels, an unusually large percentage of able-bodied men, particularly the young and less-educated, are either not working or not working full-time.

Most of the blame for the struggle of male, less-educated workers has been attributed to lingering weakness in the economy, particularly in male-dominated industries such as manufacturing. Yet in the new research, economists from Princeton, the University of Rochester and the University of Chicago say that an additional reason many of these young men — who don't have college degrees — are rejecting work is that they have a better alternative: living at home and enjoying video games. The decision may not even be completely conscious, but surveys suggest that young men are happier for it.

“Happiness has gone up for this group, despite employment percentages having fallen, and the percentage living with parents going up. And that’s different than for any other group,” says the University of Chicago’s Erik Hurst, an economist at the Booth School of Business who helped lead the research.

While young men might temporarily enjoy a life of leisure, the implications could be troubling for them as well as the economy. The young men aren’t gaining job experience that will better equip them to work in their 30s and 40s. That, in turn, could lead to a lifetime of decreased wages, limited opportunities and challenges such as depression and drug use — problems that the United States is already seeing in areas hit with heavy job losses......

Maybe people are becoming disillusioned with the drudgery of the 40 hr week. 9 to 5 if you are lucky and in many cases 9 - 6 or shift work. And whats it all for really in the end. So you can buy nice house, a fancy car, holidays away.. Remember 30 years ago a single wage was enough to provide that. Then 2 parents went out working and that now is just enough to pay for that. If the average working week became 60 hrs then costs of living would rise so that the 60 hr week would be just enough to provide the same.

I don't blame this new cohort of young people who just think na that's not for me. Give me enough to get by and i'll be happy enough sort of thing. I don't need a fancy house, new car, holidays, an iPhone 6, fancy clothes etc.

silverharp · 29-09-2016 10:35AM

Letree wrote: »

Maybe people are becoming disillusioned with the drudgery of the 40 hr week. 9 to 5 if you are lucky and in many cases 9 - 6 or shift work. And whats it all for really in the end. So you can buy nice house, a fancy car, holidays away.. Remember 30 years ago a single wage was enough to provide that. Then 2 parents went out working and that now is just enough to pay for that. If the average working week became 60 hrs then costs of living would rise so that the 60 hr week would be just enough to provide the same.

I don't blame this new cohort of young people who just think na that's not for me. Give me enough to get by and i'll be happy enough sort of thing. I don't need a fancy house, new car, holidays, an iPhone 6, fancy clothes etc.

the way I look at it is if you can hoof your way into the top ~20% go for it , you will get a reasonable deal, if you cant, "danger Will Robinson" and consider options carefully. It looks like the "gig economy" is becoming more a thing now so its not like everyone will get a choice, its take it or leave it.
I think this Japanese thing of locking oneself away in the parents spare room is awful and is a life unlived but if you can build a life where you have self esteem then yep go for it.

29-09-2016 10:35AM

Letree wrote: »

Maybe people are becoming disillusioned with the drudgery of the 40 hr week. 9 to 5 if you are lucky and in many cases 9 - 6 or shift work. And whats it all for really in the end. So you can buy nice house, a fancy car, holidays away.. Remember 30 years ago a single wage was enough to provide that. Then 2 parents went out working and that now is just enough to pay for that. If the average working week became 60 hrs then costs of living would rise so that the 60 hr week would be just enough to provide the same.

I don't blame this new cohort of young people who just think na that's not for me. Give me enough to get by and i'll be happy enough sort of thing. I don't need a fancy house, new car, holidays, an iPhone 6, fancy clothes etc.

It's a whole other topic but really the west should be moving towards a 4 day/30 hour week in general. Universal basic income would make it doable but still worthwhile for anyone who wanted to put in the 40/50/60 hour weeks.

Letree · 29-09-2016 10:42AM

silverharp wrote: »

I think this Japanese thing of locking oneself away in the parents spare room is awful and is a life unlived.

Yeah that really is a sad existence.

silverharp · 29-09-2016 10:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a whole other topic but really the west should be moving towards a 4 day/30 hour week in general. Universal basic income would make it doable but still worthwhile for anyone who wanted to put in the 40/50/60 hour weeks.

I must say I'd be ideologically against a universal income, it sounds unaffordable for a start, and a bit like how 2 income households just pushed property prices up, this just sounds inflationary and any extra cash would get zapped in rent increases. if anything it would accelerate the "gig economy" retailers etc would love a pool of people that just want parttime jobs.

Letree · 29-09-2016 10:50AM

silverharp wrote: »

I must say I'd be ideologically against a universal income, it sounds unaffordable for a start, and a bit like how 2 income households just pushed property prices up, this just sounds inflationary and any extra cash would get zapped in rent increases. if anything it would accelerate the "gig economy" retailers etc would love a pool of people that just want parttime jobs.

I'm not sure about the universal income either. But regardless of what feminists say we now have equality in the West and with men and women now working a 4 day week or a 30 hour week should be plenty. Especially if we want shared parenting and enough children for population sustainability. We don't need both parents out toiling for 40 or 50 hours a week. Automation will play a large part too.

mzungu · 29-09-2016 10:57AM

silverharp wrote: »

funny that women are more positive about masculinity than men, shocker!

Yeah, I mean all this complaining about masculinity, relatively speaking, is done mostly by fringe elements. However, they get disproportionate media coverage so it does seem at times like it's a major movement, when in reality most well adjusted folk can see it is all BS.

Outside of the navel gazing, people are simply too preoccupied with the pressures of modern life to give a crap about all these makey-uppey theories doing the rounds in US colleges and Reddit!

Carlos Orange · 29-09-2016 11:01AM

No

mzungu wrote: »

Yeah, I mean all this complaining about masculinity, relatively speaking, is done mostly by fringe elements.

when in reality most well adjusted folk can see it is all BS.

That is pretty obviously not true given the way it is impacting on young mens view of masculinity.

29-09-2016 11:02AM

silverharp wrote: »

I must say I'd be ideologically against a universal income, it sounds unaffordable for a start, and a bit like how 2 income households just pushed property prices up, this just sounds inflationary and any extra cash would get zapped in rent increases. if anything it would accelerate the "gig economy" retailers etc would love a pool of people that just want parttime jobs.

I'm not "for" it really, just that it would make shorted working weeks a lot more feasible. Say, for example, set it now at around 8k. Tax 20% on everything up to 25k and have a staggered increase up to 70k. The wide variation in working hours would, I believe, lead to a fairly low cost of "basic" living but the variation in working hours wouldn't be reflected as widely in income so extra income would be more "valuable". Anyway, getting well away from sexism. :pac:

mzungu · 29-09-2016 11:09AM

Letree wrote: »

Maybe people are becoming disillusioned with the drudgery of the 40 hr week. 9 to 5 if you are lucky and in many cases 9 - 6 or shift work. And whats it all for really in the end. So you can buy nice house, a fancy car, holidays away.. Remember 30 years ago a single wage was enough to provide that. Then 2 parents went out working and that now is just enough to pay for that. If the average working week became 60 hrs then costs of living would rise so that the 60 hr week would be just enough to provide the same.

Add to this the debt that is incurred by going to college in the US averages at around $35,000 for a degree. One of the lads interviewed in the article mentioned that he did not want to have that to worry about aswell.

I don't blame this new cohort of young people who just think na that's not for me. Give me enough to get by and i'll be happy enough sort of thing. I don't need a fancy house, new car, holidays, an iPhone 6, fancy clothes etc.

A lot of lads in their twenties would feel that way, however I would like to know if this mindset would continue on much later than that? The ideal of the picket fences and all that jazz has never been more expensive, will these guys eventually toe the line and dive into suburbia or are the US looking at a Japan style situation coming down the line?
For example:

A survey of Japanese people aged 18 to 34 found that almost 70 percent of unmarried men and 60 percent of unmarried women are not in a relationship.

Moreover, many of them have never got close and cuddly. Around 42 percent of the men and 44.2 percent of the women admitted they were virgins.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/09/16/national/social-issues/sexless-japan-almost-half-young-men-women-virgins-survey/#.V-z1bZMrJBw

I suppose this might be a different argument, but now that there are so many options on the table, are these men and women who stay single simply doing so because the option is now there? Whereas before due to societal pressures they may have felt pressured into it. The article from the Washinton Times stated that these men were all happier than their counterparts in 2000, so maybe it might not be such a bad thing after all from the viewpoint of the individual. However, from an economic viewpoint, it is a cause for concern. My view would be if they are happy then more power to them.

silverharp · 29-09-2016 11:11AM

psinno wrote: »

That is pretty obviously not true given the way it is impacting on young mens view of masculinity.

Im trying to get my head around all this stuff and its difficult trying to figure out causes and effects. there has to be real world things happening too as well as media narratives. The way kids are raised for instance, if more kids in the US or US are growing up without dads, that is going to affect their view of masculinity because they wont have role models and its not a trait a mother can reinforce by definition. Paul Feig would be a poster boy for someone who had an absent/remote dad and look how he turned out

Also maybe things like education which is probably being tweaked in favour of how girls learn.

Letree · 29-09-2016 11:15AM

mzungu wrote: »

For example:

Around 42 percent of the men and 44.2 percent of the women admitted they were virgins.[/URL]

I suppose this might be a different argument, but now that there are so many options on the table, are these men and women who stay single simply doing so because the option is now there? Whereas before due to societal pressures they may have felt pressured into it. The article from the Washinton Times stated that these men were all happier than their counterparts in 2000, so maybe it might not be such a bad thing after all from the viewpoint of the individual. However, from an economic viewpoint, it is a cause for concern. My view would be if they are happy then more power to them.

Those numbers are staggering. Something really odd happening over there, economy stagnated for a generation, they work very long hours and now they seem to be opting out of human relationships. Very worrying times.

mzungu · 29-09-2016 11:18AM

psinno wrote: »

That is pretty obviously not true given the way it is impacting on young mens view of masculinity.

That's why I said 'well adjusted'. A lot of young men are still trying to find themselves and are not at a stage where they possess the critical faculties to spot the BS. Hence why the the older demographics are not affected by it.

Silverharp makes a good point:

Im trying to get my head around all this stuff and its difficult trying to figure out causes and effects. there has to be real world things happening too as well as media narratives. The way kids are raised for instance, if more kids in the US or US are growing up without dads, that is going to affect their view of masculinity because they wont have role models and its not a trait a mother can reinforce by definition. Paul Feig would be a poster boy for someone who had an absent/remote dad and look how he turned out Also maybe things like education which is probably being tweaked in favour of how girls learn.

There most likely is a myriad of factors involved here. It can't just be a case of young men passively receiving messages of hostility towards masculinity from one source, it is most likely coming from a lot of other sources too.

mzungu · 29-09-2016 11:23AM

Letree wrote: »

Those numbers are staggering. Something really odd happening over there, economy stagnated for a generation, they work very long hours and now they seem to be opting out of human relationships. Very worrying times.

It would not be a life I would choose that's for sure. I would be interested to see how content they are in life (like the Washington Post article). If it was a case that they weren't depressed and that they are simply doing what makes them happy, then who would we be to judge.

That said, it is a very bizarre situation looking at it from an Irish viewpoint. I would be interested in hearing a Japanese rationale on the matter.

Letree · 29-09-2016 11:26AM

mzungu wrote: »

It would not be a life I would choose that's for sure. I would be interested to see how content they are in life (like the Washington Post article). If it was a case that they weren't depressed and that they are simply doing what makes them happy, then who would we be to judge.

That said, it is a very bizarre situation looking at it from an Irish viewpoint. I would be interested in hearing a Japanese rationale on the matter.

It might be a big city thing where if people want to remain single then getting a property alone would be too expensive. So they end up stuck in their parents house.

mzungu · 29-09-2016 12:09PM

Letree wrote: »

It might be a big city thing where if people want to remain single then getting a property alone would be too expensive. So they end up stuck in their parents house.

Fair point, I have heard the likes of Tokyo and Nagoya are quite expensive (more so than here) so unless you had a pretty decent income, your options are limited to say the least.

kunst nugget · 29-09-2016 12:45PM

maybe

Letree wrote: »

It might be a big city thing where if people want to remain single then getting a property alone would be too expensive. So they end up stuck in their parents house.

Isn't Japan the home of the multigenerational mortgages? Why would you bother moving when you're going to be stuck with your parents mortgage when they die.

Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1