Man arrested after suspected genital mutilation on two-year-old girl

AlekSmart · 24-09-2016 11:46AM

Wibbs wrote: »

In the African cultures that perform FGM it's overwhelmingly the women who perform and support it. Male circumcision in cultures like the US it's more both genders. Cultural influence is strong mind you. ...........

..............This is not some victimhood derby where we need to amp up the suffering of any group to win some BS position. We should all strive to stop all childhood mutilations regardless of gender, culture or creed(inc piercings BTW). Leave that crap in the dark ages of bronze age ignorance where it belongs. Your culture or creed demands it? Well then that aspect of your culture or creed is bloody retarded and needs an update.

Speaking of retarded, that judge was. Unreal. *headshake*

Well said that Man...should be a sticky,or at least printed up on waterproof cards and scattered across the Irish Naval Services current Area of Operations in The Mediterranian.

Whether Frau Merkel or Mr Sutherland like it or not,their invitees MUST now be made aware that their mere presence in a Western Culture will not automatically trigger some mad rush to modify and/or abandon the advances of a thousand years,simply to embrace some highly dubious and arguable contentions written in a "Holy Book" from whatever source...we've struggled far too long and painfully to drag ourselves from beneath one such system to want to immediately re-enter another far more regressive one !

coolbeans · 24-09-2016 11:51AM

Jesus. wrote: »

The feminists don't know what to do with cases like these. Just stay quiet I suppose.

You're talking ****e as usual with your generalisations. I'm a (male) feminist and would have no problem banning that backward nonsense. If they wanna come here fine, but laws of the host country apply. No medieval customs or cultural mores. If they don't like that maybe they should stay in whatever God forsaken mess of a place they come from.

childsplay · 24-09-2016 11:52AM

silverharp wrote:

firstly it doesnt matter, she would have known it was going to happen

People know all kinds of bad things are going to happen or are happening. Doesn't mean they will do anything to stop it from happening. They allow it to happen for various reasons and the reason l am suggesting is key here is religion. When a whole community is at the same thing it becomes an acceptable practice to that community. If it's accepted then who's going to report it? And further to that, is a person going to be willing to go against the crowd? My opinion would be that they are not likely to because people are people at the end of the day.

El_Duderino 09 · 24-09-2016 12:00PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote:

It's their culture.

Yes it is

EndaHonesty wrote:

People who carry out these "procedures" are weirdos.

They are wierdos and most cultures do it or have done it at some point. Most cultures are wierdos.

In the specific case you need to apply the laws and punish the man in question. In a broader sense you need to engage with the communities to work with them.

They want to act out their primitive culture and we won't let them. We should encourage them to do something else that satisfies their ritual without harming anyone.

Samaris · 24-09-2016 12:07PM

This is partly why we don't get to discuss it. First page and there's people trying to push their own agendas. Congratulations, you've just used a child's suffering for your only very vaguely related political "point" about feminists.

Christ.

FGM is a barbaric practice. I am not 100% sure where I stand on the awfulness of MGM, mostly because I don't know a great deal about it. It would appear at -best- unnecessary to me, and it also appears that it overall has more negatives than positives to it, barring medical cases which aren't the point here. The sheer damage that FGM causes by design makes it absolutely beyond defense. I hope the book is thrown at the people involved in this. I do agree that education is needed as well as just plain banning it. There are ways around the ban. It has got to be understood -why- this is such a terrible thing to do to your daughter though to be sure that it does die a death.

suicide_circus · 24-09-2016 12:12PM

conorhal wrote: »

And you have to respect that aparently....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/jury-clears-nigerian-man-involved-in-circumcision-death-case-25960678.html

A NIGERIAN man who carried out a circumcision on a month-old baby, who later bled to death, walked free from court yesterday.
The solicitor said his client wished to thank the jury who he said had a very difficult task. "They have had to shirk off their Western mores and ways and have done a magnificent job as far as Osagie is concerned.
"It has been a real test of justice here because of the difficulty from whence an all-white jury were coming," Mr Chesser said.
"The judge put it so simply when he said they had to shake off their Western values and put themselves in the place of Osagie here."

What that man is doing in a courtroom still is a mystery to me, but he's a prime example of the kind of wooly liberalism that thinks the law shouldn't apply to minorities, which is in fact the paternalistic racism of low expections.

The only way this stops is this. If there are 3,000 victims of FGM in this country there should be 6,000 parents in jail right now. That would halt the practice pretty quickly.

Unfortunately our politicians, media and chattering classes are too afraid of being called racist to actually tackle this abuse.

I can only assume this procedure was requested by the parents, so why have they not been arrested? Politicians that bleat on about institutional abuse by the church and then turn a blind eye to this are hypocrites.

good god almighty...that judge...I'm lost for words

Colser · 24-09-2016 12:21PM

I couldn't care less about culture or tradition etc,all I see when I read this is a man mutilating a little girl,one can only imagine the pain involved.How can someone do that to any child...it's totally barbaric and I don't buy into the culture reason,he's a total p***K imo and l hope he's locked up but I'm guessing that won't happen because of his culture etc.

cerastes · 24-09-2016 12:21PM

conorhal wrote: »

And you have to respect that aparently....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/jury-clears-nigerian-man-involved-in-circumcision-death-case-25960678.html

A NIGERIAN man who carried out a circumcision on a month-old baby, who later bled to death, walked free from court yesterday.
The solicitor said his client wished to thank the jury who he said had a very difficult task. "They have had to shirk off their Western mores and ways and have done a magnificent job as far as Osagie is concerned.
"It has been a real test of justice here because of the difficulty from whence an all-white jury were coming," Mr Chesser said.
"The judge put it so simply when he said they had to shake off their Western values and put themselves in the place of Osagie here."

What that man is doing in a courtroom still is a mystery to me, but he's a prime example of the kind of wooly liberalism that thinks the law shouldn't apply to minorities, which is in fact the paternalistic racism of low expections.

The only way this stops is this. If there are 3,000 victims of FGM in this country there should be 6,000 parents in jail right now. That would halt the practice pretty quickly.

Unfortunately our politicians, media and chattering classes are too afraid of being called racist to actually tackle this abuse.

I can only assume this procedure was requested by the parents, so why have they not been arrested? Politicians that bleat on about institutional abuse by the church and then turn a blind eye to this are hypocrites.

If that isn't illegal it should be,
This is horrific and disturbing, if I was on that jury I could never have been convinced he didn't deserve a custodial sentence.

Not because I am unaware of the practice being a cultural thing in their home country (it isn't here and they should respect our laWs and traditions as they are now), AND not because I dont agree with it, OR because it isn't a cultural thing here, even aside from it being a barbaric practice seemingly not necessary for medical reasons,
HE CARRIED IT OUT ON A KITCHEN TABLE? OR THAT HE OR ANYONE WOULD CARRY IT OUT AT ALL, IS IT NOT ILLEGAL TO CARRY OUT MEDICAL PROCEDURES FOR WHATEVER REASON (RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL) UNLESS YOU ARE QUALIFIED AND REGISTERED?! AND THEN ONLY IN AN APPROPRIATE SETTING/ORGANISATION?

The flying mouse · 24-09-2016 12:22PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Racist!!!!

padraig.od wrote: »

Racist OP.

In what way ?

GLaDOS · 24-09-2016 12:26PM

Absolutely barbaric, hopefully he gets a long prison sentence.

While I don't agree with male circumcision at birth (excepting medical reasons), it isn't on the same planet as FGM and can't really be compared.

Teyla Emmagan · 24-09-2016 12:26PM

That poor child. I am really glad the Guards are involved and I hope he gets the book thrown at him. And the mother for permitting this to happen. We just can't have this happening here. It's horrific enough to think it happens at all. I wonder how the Gardai were notified. The child must have needed medical treatment afterwards

We should also have laws to prevent this happening to any Irish citizen in another country. In the UK they fly their girls back to Africa for cutting holidays. You should be jailed for allowing that happen too. It might be cultural but it's a sickening practice. Interfering with a child's genitals on any level where not required for health reasons is just morally fcuking wrong.

Any immigrant from a country that supports FGM should have to go though reeducation when they get here. This sort of backwards barbaric women subjugating ****e cannot be allowed to happen here. I could cry for that poor child

Vic_08 · 24-09-2016 12:43PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

good god almighty...that judge...I'm lost for words

Really? I'm not even the slightest bit surprised. Par for the course with the Irish Judiciary.

"If the Irish government is ready to assist me, I will prove to them I am one of the expert circumcisionists in the world. If they really want me to continue, they should give me direction and I would be delighted."

Just add a request for a €10,000 wire transfer, if there wasn't a dead baby it would almost be funny.

Grayson · 24-09-2016 12:50PM

silverharp wrote: »

firstly it doesnt matter, she would have known it was going to happen and she was only a phone call away from reporting this. Secondly I'd imagine family dynamics can be complex where mothers even in Islam have a lot of subtle behind the scenes power. In their own country Grandmother "matriarchs" can often be the tyrant in the background instigating honor killings etc.

It's not Islam though. Well, it is for male circumcision. Female circumcision is a cultural thing. There are Christians and animalists in those areas that do it to.

Both male and female circumcision are ghastly practices and have no place in our society.

Harvey Normal · 24-09-2016 12:54PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont know any feminists that condone fgm

Plenty do. Germaine Greer for instance. Others stay relatively silent.

Right2Write · 24-09-2016 12:56PM

If he's guilty, castrate him and get the message out there that this is not acceptable in Ireland. Feck their culture, as misogynistic as the catholic church here.

Harvey Normal · 24-09-2016 12:59PM

conorhal wrote: »

And you have to respect that aparently....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/jury-clears-nigerian-man-involved-in-circumcision-death-case-25960678.html

A NIGERIAN man who carried out a circumcision on a month-old baby, who later bled to death, walked free from court yesterday.
The solicitor said his client wished to thank the jury who he said had a very difficult task. "They have had to shirk off their Western mores and ways and have done a magnificent job as far as Osagie is concerned.
"It has been a real test of justice here because of the difficulty from whence an all-white jury were coming," Mr Chesser said.
"The judge put it so simply when he said they had to shake off their Western values and put themselves in the place of Osagie here."

What that man is doing in a courtroom still is a mystery to me, but he's a prime example of the kind of wooly liberalism that thinks the law shouldn't apply to minorities, which is in fact the paternalistic racism of low expections.

The only way this stops is this. If there are 3,000 victims of FGM in this country there should be 6,000 parents in jail right now. That would halt the practice pretty quickly.

Unfortunately our politicians, media and chattering classes are too afraid of being called racist to actually tackle this abuse.

I can only assume this procedure was requested by the parents, so why have they not been arrested? Politicians that bleat on about institutional abuse by the church and then turn a blind eye to this are hypocrites.

That "liberal" judge is saying, basically, that there is a parallel legal system in Ireland and that a child of a different culture (generally of a different race too) can be mutilated and killed. He probably prides himself on his anti-racism too.

Grayson · 24-09-2016 01:00PM

Vic_08 wrote: »

Really? I'm not even the slightest bit surprised. Par for the course with the Irish Judiciary.

It was a jury trial. He was found not guilty by 12 irish people, not by the judge.

cerastes wrote: »

If that isn't illegal it should be,
This is horrific and disturbing, if I was on that jury I could never have been convinced he didn't deserve a custodial sentence.

To be fair, to be on a jury you have to be able to hear something and make your mind up. Impartiality and all that.
Having said that, I think maybe you meant to say you can't imagine anything which would have excused it. I have to agree with that. The article is very light on the arguments and evidence that was put forward. I can't imagine what the jury heard that enabled them to make that decision but I'd like to hear it.

Samaris · 24-09-2016 01:00PM

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Plenty do. Germaine Greer for instance. Others stay relatively silent.

And others have to yell over the voices accusing them of not saying anything just to be heard over the accusations of not saying anything :pac:

Also, if she -is- a proponent of it, screw her.

Jesus. · 24-09-2016 01:11PM

coolbeans wrote: »

You're talking ****e as usual with your generalisations. I'm a (male) feminist and would have no problem banning that backward nonsense. If they wanna come here fine, but laws of the host country apply. No medieval customs or cultural mores. If they don't like that maybe they should stay in whatever God forsaken mess of a place they come from.

You're a male feminist? Sorry but that's a bullsh1t label.

Your solution is fatally flawed immediately. "If they wanna come here fine". No, not fine. Why import such a culture in the first place?

bodice ripper · 24-09-2016 01:14PM

In shop where we also had piercing, we would fairly routinely have mothers bringing in newborns asking to have their ears done. Noses too. Horrific.

Jesus. · 24-09-2016 01:20PM

Samaris wrote: »

I am not 100% sure where I stand on the awfulness of MGM, mostly because I don't know a great deal about it. It would appear at -best- unnecessary to me, and it also appears that it overall has more negatives than positives.

Sorry Samaris I know you're a Mod but that is precisely why people are suspicious of feminism with such a woolly and contradictory approach.

What do you need to know about it?! Its the mutilation of baby boy's genitalia for medieval religious belief systems. How can you be a proponent of an enlightened liberal ideology and come out with something like that?

Grayson · 24-09-2016 01:24PM

Jesus. wrote: »

You're a male feminist? Sorry but that's a bullsh1t label.

Your solution is fatally flawed immediately. "If they wanna come here fine". No, not fine. Why import such a culture in the first place?

He's not saying that. He's saying that it's ok to bring some parts of their culture but not that. Saying that it's ok to allow people of different religions and cultures to come here is fine but that doesn't mean giving a carte blanche to every little cultural thing. Come here and practice judaism/islam/buddhism/whatever. Open up kosher restaurants or a kebab restaurant. Don't mutilate/abuse babies. If you do, we'll lock you up and maybe take your children away.

Samaris · 24-09-2016 01:26PM

Jesus. wrote: »

Sorry Samaris I know you're a Mod but that is precisely why people are suspicious of feminism with such a woolly and contradictory approach.

What do you need to know about it?! Its the mutilation of baby boy's genitalia for medieval religious belief systems. How can you be a proponent of an enlightened liberal ideology and come out with something like that?

My being a mod has nothing to do with the price of goldfish.

Basically that I don't get it, and I've not researched enough into it to know if there is any truth whatsoever to the ideas that it's healthy in any way. I have heard arguments to that effect, but I'm willing to neither categorically agree with them or categorically disagree with them based on what I am fully aware is very limited knowledge. Overall, I feel more against it because at best it seems unnecessary and at worst, deaths have resulted. Barring in medical circumstances where it can be necessary, but that's not really the point.

I can be more outspoken on FGM because I have never seen any argument that can even pretend that it's not appalling in practice and deeply physically damaging to the victim.

Nothing really to do with feminism, it is based on my own recalcitrance to make statements about things I am aware that I don't know the ins and outs of. Just to shake things up a bit, next time can you have a go at me over my approach as a scientist rather than feminism? It's getting a tad worn out.

Wibbs · 24-09-2016 01:40PM

GLaDOS wrote: »

While I don't agree with male circumcision at birth (excepting medical reasons), it isn't on the same planet as FGM and can't really be compared.

Much of why you think it's not "on the same planet" G is because of your culture point of view. Let me come at it a slightly different way; would those saying there's a massive difference between the two be OK with removing the exact same analogous tissue in baby girls as is removed in boys for cultural/religious reasons? I'll bet the farm they wouldn't. All removal of genital tissue for cultural or religious reasons is barbaric, retarded and borne of primitivism and mindless habit.

It beggars belief that cultures who practice it don't see it. OK some hill farmer from the arse end of nowhere with zero education and belief in spirits and shít I can understand, but something like Jewish culture rightly highly regarded for scaling the heights of intellectual pursuit thinks it's good too? I knew a Bahraini lad years ago who was in final year of medical school, serious brainiac and he reckoned the male version was welcome and to be encouraged and the female version in its least invasive form was harmless. Da fuq? Just goes to show how culture is so deeply engrained, when you have extremely bright people and cultures that see this kinda thing as OK.

cajonlardo · 24-09-2016 01:43PM

I am considered racist because I don't want that man in my country.

It doesn't matter that I do not object to the colour of his skin nor do I have anything against his country of origin. I don't object to his religion because I neither know nor care his creed. I object to him setting foot in my country because he is a dangerous lunatic and I want less dangerous lunatics in my country.

Vic_08 · 24-09-2016 01:43PM

Grayson wrote: »

It was a jury trial. He was found not guilty by 12 irish people, not by the judge.

Yes, it was the jury's decision but with the judge saying "they had to shake off their Western values and put themselves in the place of Osagie here." he was clearly giving them a strong message that it was OK to let him off because of his culture.

I wonder what part of Irish law that instruction comes under, last time I checked the principle of treating people equally still held sway, at least on paper. I guess this is positive discrimination so that's grand.

Widdershins · 24-09-2016 01:51PM

dav3 wrote: »

It's a barbaric practice. If you're a jew or a muslim it doesn't matter, any attempts by a person to perform mgm or fgm in this country should be punished with a harsh prison sentence.

What could be an interesting discussion on genital mutilation is now being twisted into something it's not by very sad individuals. Can we have at least one discussion without people screaming for jews and muslims to be deported or barred from entering the country.

But FGM is not a Jewish practice. It's common amongst Muslims. You are thinking of circumcision and Jews.

24-09-2016 02:01PM

The obsession of adults with going at children's genitals is unbelievable.
Some woman in the states went to jail because the father of their child insisted he get circumcised and she was against it
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/may/24/florida-woman-son-circumcision-freed-jail
I mean seriously. He was so obsessed with chopping off bits that he took legal action over it. At what point do you stop and ask yourself hey maybe this is silly

Grayson · 24-09-2016 02:03PM

Vic_08 wrote: »

Yes, it was the jury's decision but with the judge saying "they had to shake off their Western values and put themselves in the place of Osagie here." he was clearly giving them a strong message that it was OK to let him off because of his culture.

I wonder what part of Irish law that instruction comes under, last time I checked the principle of treating people equally still held sway, at least on paper. I guess this is positive discrimination so that's grand.

The point is that the jury should judge based on the law and not on cultural differences. And that's right. You don't want juries to make decisions based on personal feelings. You want them to weigh up evidence and make a decision based on the law.

Having said that, I'd still like to know more details. It strikes me as something that should have been illegal. I'd like to know what evidence they were presented with that enabled them to determine that he hadn't broken a law.

Grayson · 24-09-2016 02:11PM

Widdershins wrote: »

But FGM is not a Jewish practice. It's common amongst Muslims. You are thinking of circumcision and Jews.

The vast majority of muslims don't practice it so it's not common amoungst them. It's common in certain parts of africa. In those parts the majority happen to be muslim. However people of other religions practice it too. It's a regional cultural practice, not a religious one.

That's just FGM of course. MGM is practiced by all muslims and jews as a religious practice. It's also practiced by a lot of people in the US who don't do it for any religious reasons. Most happen to be christian but it's got nothing to do with christianity. In that way the reasons for practicing MGM in the US are similar to the reasons for practicing FGM in africa. It's because it's always been that way, their parents do it and want their child to do it. Stupid non existent hygiene reasons too.

Either way, both are barbaric and if I could I'd ban both.

Man arrested after suspected genital mutilation on two-year-old girl

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