Is heaven really a prison?

sbsquarepants · 19-09-2016 10:37AM #1

This is a serious question. I was in the process asking in another thread but the thread got closed before I'd finished typing!

Consider this. You've been a good boy, or girl and you've found yourself in heaven after the final whistle. So far, so good - but the days are pretty samey - it's not really a party crowd and the after life is not what you hoped it would be. Can you leave, or are you a captive? If you can leave where could you go?

Does it all basically boil down to a choice of which prison you get to serve out your sentence in?

solodeogloria · 19-09-2016 10:49AM

Good morning!

Did you read the replies to the other thread before posting on this one?

People aren't "good" at all by definition. Christians aren't "good" in and of themselves. Why so you think Jesus needed to die for us?

If you think that living in right relationship with God and with others as a prison that's your view. Don't expect me to share it though.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Nick Park · 19-09-2016 10:53AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is a serious question. I was in the process asking in another thread but the thread got closed before I'd finished typing!

Consider this. You've been a good boy, or girl and you've found yourself in heaven after the final whistle. So far, so good - but the days are pretty samey - it's not really a party crowd and the after life is not what you hoped it would be. Can you leave, or are you a captive? If you can leave where could you go?

Does it all basically boil down to a choice of which prison you get to serve out your sentence in?

First off, historic Christianity doesn't actually teach that people spend all eternity in some cloudy place in the sky called heaven where disembodied spirits float around. It teaches a resurrection where we receive a new, much improved, body and live together on a new, much improved, earth in the presence of God.

Second, you don't get to reach this point by being a good boy or girl. You get there by faith in Jesus Christ.

Third, the Christian view of this eternity in God's presence is that it will be the ultimate in excitement and enjoyment. It is portrayed as being like a wedding party with superb company and excellent food and wine!

So, no. No prison. No boredom. And a much better party crowd than you're ever going to meet in this life.

sbsquarepants · 19-09-2016 11:44AM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Did you read the replies to the other thread before posting on this one?

People aren't "good" at all by definition. Christians aren't "good" in and of themselves. Why so you think Jesus needed to die for us?

If you think that living in right relationship with God and with others as a prison that's your view. Don't expect me to share it though.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

I don't expect you to share anything?

There are clearly good people and bad people. I mean what is the point of the whole final judgement thing if not to lump people into one camp or the other, to separate the good from the bad?

Anyway that was not my question - the question is simply can you choose to leave, should you so desire?

Nick Park wrote: »

First off, historic Christianity doesn't actually teach that people spend all eternity in some cloudy place in the sky called heaven where disembodied spirits float around. It teaches a resurrection where we receive a new, much improved, body and live together on a new, much improved, earth in the presence of God..

Be that as it may, it is for all eternity. Plenty of time to change your opinion or just fancy a change.

Nick Park wrote: »

Second, you don't get to reach this point by being a good boy or girl. You get there by faith in Jesus Christ..

Are you suggesting that Bill could be good but not get in, whereas Phil could be bad yet still get it in?

Nick Park wrote: »

Third, the Christian view of this eternity in God's presence is that it will be the ultimate in excitement and enjoyment. It is portrayed as being like a wedding party with superb company and excellent food and wine!

So, no. No prison. No boredom. And a much better party crowd than you're ever going to meet in this life.

Even the greatest parties wear thin after a while. Eternity is a long time!

The question remains - can you opt out or are you trapped?

Nick Park · 19-09-2016 11:52AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Bill could be good but not get in, whereas Phil could be bad yet still get it in?

Yes. That's what Christians call "the Gospel". It's the Good News that you don't get to share eternity with God on account of your own goodness, but rather because you accepted the free gift of salvation. The technical term for this, one I imagine you've heard before, is "grace".

I mean this in the nicest possible way, and not trying to put you down, but instead of asking about peripheral stuff like whether heaven is a 'prison', maybe you would be better off discovering the basic stuff that Christians believe?

Even the greatest parties wear thin after a while. Eternity is a long time!

No, that isn't what Christians believe. Christianity teaches that the experience of those who share God's presence in eternity is so great that it never wears thin.

So it would seem that you asking about some other 'heaven' rather than anything Christians believe in. In which case you're probably asking your question in the wrong forum.

sbsquarepants · 19-09-2016 12:00PM

Cheers Nick.

So the short answer is "No - you can not leave"?
The long answer is "No, you can not leave, but sure you wouldn't want to anyway"?

Nick Park · 19-09-2016 12:03PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Cheers Nick.

So the short answer is "No - you can not leave"?
The long answer is "No, you can not leave, but sure you wouldn't want to anyway"?

No.

The short answer is "You wouldn't want to leave."

The long answer is "If you did want to leave, which you wouldn't, then we don't know what the answer would be. Probably because the Bible wasn't written to address hypothetical scenarios that are impossible,"

The Bishop Basher · 19-09-2016 02:37PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There are clearly good people and bad people.

Says who ?

indioblack · 19-09-2016 04:59PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is a serious question. I was in the process asking in another thread but the thread got closed before I'd finished typing!

Consider this. You've been a good boy, or girl and you've found yourself in heaven after the final whistle. So far, so good - but the days are pretty samey - it's not really a party crowd and the after life is not what you hoped it would be. Can you leave, or are you a captive? If you can leave where could you go?

Does it all basically boil down to a choice of which prison you get to serve out your sentence in?

In the Christian tradition, there's Heaven and hell.
If you go to Heaven it's reasonable to assume that that's where you should be - and that that's where you want to be.
Becoming bored with eternity in the one place is probably our response to our own perceptions.
We are limited by our earthly perceptions - once removed from this life most attributes would change - valuations might change in ways we would find hard to describe now.
I doubt if anyone could describe in detail such an existence - assuming there is one.
And on a rainy overcast day in September you'd want a bit more than this miserable Monday!

tommy2bad · 19-09-2016 07:45PM

Well first off, let me say heaven isn't a place, it's a state of existence. You can no more leave it than you can leave this one. In fact it's closer to getting an education, can you opt out of knowing what you learned?
Nick Park; "Second, you don't get to reach this point by being a good boy or girl. You get there by faith in Jesus Christ."
Yeah, kind of! but not realy. We know that faith in Jesus really helps, in fact we go as far as saying we know for certain faith in Jesus will guarantee a place in heaven. What we don't say is it's the only way to reach heaven.We don't know what other options He has. I would hope we are not so arrogant as to put conditions and limits on God's grace. Remember Jesus died to redeem mankind, all of it, past, present and future. Who achieves heaven is in God's gift. He left us with a set of guidelines we can trust will get us their.

solodeogloria · 19-09-2016 10:01PM

Good evening!

Actually I think we do say that faith in Jesus is the only way.

John 14:16 ESV wrote:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12 ESV wrote:

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

It isn't arrogant to say what Jesus said surely?

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Nick Park · 19-09-2016 11:32PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

It isn't arrogant to say what Jesus said surely?

Indeed. If Jesus said (as the Bible records Him as doing so) that He is the only way to God, then which is the arrogant response?

a) To humbly submit to the words of Jesus and to agree with Him that He is the only way to God.
b) To say, "Actually, I disagree with Jesus, I think that He is wrong and that I know better and I say there are other ways to God!"

shel64 · 20-09-2016 12:51AM

No Heaven is not a prison,,,,,its Heaven,
No a prison is not Heaven ,its a prison,
So as a Christian I expect to go to Heaven, I do not expect not be bored as that would not be heaven, in the bible its called Heaven,
I copied this, it explains it better than me,

The Bible speaks clearly of the existence of Heaven. It describes a place in which sadness, pain and death itself end once and for all. Beyond that, it gives only hints of what humans will experience beyond death. However, the hints are sufficient to thrill us that humans should anticipate an exhilarating and beautiful experience in the magnificent presence of the Lord God.

Christians look forward to Heaven as place where people will find complete healing and everything about their identity enhanced to its full potential. In that context they will enjoy the love of God and enjoy the love of each other forever.

tommy2bad · 20-09-2016 09:51AM

Nick Park wrote: »

Indeed. If Jesus said (as the Bible records Him as doing so) that He is the only way to God, then which is the arrogant response?

a) To humbly submit to the words of Jesus and to agree with Him that He is the only way to God.
b) To say, "Actually, I disagree with Jesus, I think that He is wrong and that I know better and I say there are other ways to God!"

a) you'll need to tell me exactly what Jesus ment when He said that. I doubt He was saying tough cheese on all the people who never heard of me, I only died to save my particular set of followers.
b) Where did I disagree with Jesus? I think it's you who are picking and choosing and I think interpreting his words to bolster your position.

sbsquarepants · 20-09-2016 10:17AM

Swanner wrote: »

Says who ?

Well, me for a start and anyone with an ounce of common sense after that?

Are you telling me there aren't bad people in the world - or good ones for that matter?

Nick Park · 20-09-2016 10:23AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

a) you'll need to tell me exactly what Jesus ment when He said that. I doubt He was saying tough cheese on all the people who never heard of me, I only died to save my particular set of followers.
b) Where did I disagree with Jesus? I think it's you who are picking and choosing and I think interpreting his words to bolster your position.

He certainly never meant 'bad people go to hell and good people go to heaven' - which was what I was correcting.

Nick Park · 20-09-2016 10:33AM

Another point worth mentioning is that the Bible tells us that, in eternity, we all become more like Jesus.

"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

This is good news when you consider that Jesus got invited to all the best parties. So much so that his ultra-religious critics called Him a "wine-bibber and a glutton". People who kept a safe distance from religious killjoys were attracted to Jesus and wanted to spend time with Him.

Think of those occasions when you've enjoyed a really great meal and you're lingering over that extra bottle of wine with a few close friends. There's no silly tensions or resentments, and no-one's trying to put anyone else down. You listen to others sharing some of the experiences they've been through, and the room is filled with warmth and laughter.

Now multiply that experience many times over, where everybody who is at the table has had a personality turbocharge that makes them infinitely kinder, funnier and more interesting.

Prison? I think not.

solodeogloria · 20-09-2016 10:48AM

Good morning!

tommy2bad:
This is why I would recommend you read the whole of John's gospel through. Jesus explains throughout that it is those who believe who are His. Those who hear His voice and come to Him.

Jesus claims that there are no other ways to God repeatedly throughout the gospels. He seems pretty clear about what that means also.

I understand that that is offensive. But it is largely only offensive to a world that refuses to listen to God's Son.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

The Bishop Basher · 20-09-2016 10:51AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Are you telling me there aren't bad people in the world - or good ones for that matter?

Yes.

People are just people. There are certainly people who do things that we judge to be bad and likewise people who do things that we judge to be good but these judgments are subjective and based on ethical and cultural norms of our time..

Remember we're looking at this from a divine perspective so we have to look outside cultural boundaries, geography, age we live in etc..

So while there are certainly people who the majority of us might collectively judge as bad people, that doesn't actually mean they're bad. It just means we've collectively judged them as so.

It's a subtle but important difference especially in context of this topic.

sbsquarepants · 20-09-2016 10:59AM

Swanner wrote: »

Yes.

People are just people. There are certainly people who do things that we judge to be bad and likewise people who do things that we judge to be good but these judgments are subjective and based on ethical and cultural norms of our time..

Remember we're looking at this from a divine perspective so we have to look outside cultural boundaries, geography, age we live in etc..

So while there are certainly people who the majority of us might collectively judge as bad people, that doesn't actually mean they're bad. It just means we've collectively judged them as so.

It's a subtle but important difference especially in context of this topic.

Sorry swanner, it's neither subtle nor important - it's nonsense.

Larry Murphy for example - is he just bad from the ethical and cultural norms of our time?
What about Ian Huntley - outside what cultural boundary exactly could he be viewed as anything other that a bad person?
What about Charles Manson, Ted Bundy or lets really ramp it up - Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot for gods sake.

Only god can judge? No, sorry swanner - I claim that right also!

The Bishop Basher · 20-09-2016 11:06AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Only god can judge? No, sorry swanner - I claim that right also!

I never said only God can judge, And I never suggested you can't. Of course you can. We all can.

But in the context of discussing who goes to which "prison" on passing from this life, your judgements, my judgements and our collective judgements are all utterly irrelevant.

sbsquarepants · 20-09-2016 01:09PM

I know you never said it - I assumed that was what you were getting at. A silly assumption to make in fairness.

I do think you're point that there aren't bad people is ridiculous though. There quite obviously are plenty of people who are bad full stop, not bad when judged against the days norms or societies preferences - just bad, through and through no matter what way you look at them.

solodeogloria · 20-09-2016 01:25PM

Good afternoon!

I think they key question is bad in comparison to what?

Christians don't compare themselves to other people. We might well be good or bad in comparison to other people but that is a defective yardstick for morality. Saying I'm good because I'm not as bad as a murderer is silly.

Rather the Christian compares themselves to the holy standards that God has set before us in His word. We all come our guilty because all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. (Romans 3:23)

In other words we haven't lived as we ought to and we've not loved God and others as we should.

We're all guilty. We all deserve God's judgement but He sent His Son instead.

This is the logical core of Christianity and why Jesus had to come. To forgive wretched sinners like you and I. I'm only good in so far as Jesus stood in my place on the cross.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-09-2016 01:59PM

If you want to leave, you wouldn't want to be there in the first place. Being "a good boy" doesn't cut it either.
I'm sorry, I just can't take this thread seriously

The Bishop Basher · 20-09-2016 02:14PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I do think you're point that there aren't bad people is ridiculous though. There quite obviously are plenty of people who are bad full stop, not bad when judged against the days norms or societies preferences - just bad, through and through no matter what way you look at them.

But as long as you consider these people bad, then you are judging them against the days norms or societies preferences.

There's nothing wrong with doing that by the way, but to be bad, they must be bad in relation to some sort of set of rules or ethical code..

Take away the norms and preferences and all your left with are people doing things.. they can only become bad when we judge them to be so..

tommy2bad · 20-09-2016 02:56PM

Nick Park wrote: »

He certainly never meant 'bad people go to hell and good people go to heaven' - which was what I was correcting.

Ahh OK. It's important to not loose sight of the fact that it is god who saves, we cannot save ourselves. Which kinda contradicts the notion that God can't save the people He chooses to because they didn't " find Jesus" .

tommy2bad · 20-09-2016 03:03PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

tommy2bad:
This is why I would recommend you read the whole of John's gospel through. Jesus explains throughout that it is those who believe who are His. Those who hear His voice and come to Him.

Jesus claims that there are no other ways to God repeatedly throughout the gospels. He seems pretty clear about what that means also.

I understand that that is offensive. But it is largely only offensive to a world that refuses to listen to God's Son.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Yes and He ment that to mean throes who hear my voice as preached by some self selecting few.?
I'm not saying you can get to heaven without Jesus. It's the whole point of the incarnation. Jesus was the only one who could redeem us. He did, it's done, say thanks! Stop telling Jesus how it worked, I sincerely doubt you know any better than anyone else.
Damn right it's offensive, bordering on blasphemous.
May you walk in the grace and favour of the Lord.
A lapsed heathen.

solodeogloria · 20-09-2016 03:09PM

Good afternoon!

I'm not telling Jesus anything. He has spoken Himself.
I'm simply listening to what He has said to us in His Word

I don't accept the view that Jesus was a blasphemer for saying what He said. That He is the only way to God.

We have two choices. Either we can hear what Jesus says about Himself or we can ignore Him.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Stealthfins · 20-09-2016 03:20PM

I'll settle for a dreamless sleep myself.
Basically that's what it probably is until the day we supposedly are raised from the dead by the aliens using our DNA to replicate us ðŸ˜‰

manonboard · 20-09-2016 03:35PM

Op, It's interesting how you seem very inclined to want to believe there are good people and bad people. They are very black and white judgments. Even if you do believe such things, it makes alot more sense to qualify it to say that everyone starts out a blank canvas and most of their behavior is based on their conditioning/upbringing. This conditioning and upbringing is based large on their environmental context, which in a way shows that it couldn't be innate to a person, and is simply a matter of cultural norms being imposed on them.
To view something and inherently good and bad is quite flawed, but very common. The mind likes to categorize things quickly and in a definite form.

For instance, this conversation. You may judge me bad because I won't think anyone is bad (many consequences from this), and i may judge you bad because you label people with your own projections of good and bad(lots of negatives from that, lots of shoulds get imposed by emotions if you think that way). This very exchange shows we have different cultural norms within our own society leading to different "judgement" of good and bad, which although it doesn't invalidate them, it does show them to be not absolute but quite subjective.

Something I noticed with people who think this way, I'd like to ask you about if your interested in replying. For your views to be held true, they also must be applicable to you. So do you think you are possibly a bad person? Or you could one day be a bad person if you fail to do certain good things? Does this lead to a problem where you self esteem must dip down from time to time since your actions can bring you closer to being a 'bad' person?

tommy2bad · 20-09-2016 06:19PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm not telling Jesus anything. He has spoken Himself.
I'm simply listening to what He has said to us in His Word

No.
You are not listening to what He said, you are insisting He said something and then telling everyone else what you think it means. You are wrong for the simple reason that if you are right then no jew, hindu, sikh, muslim or non sola scriptura christian will get to heaven. Which keeps about 90% of all humanity out of the plan. You really think God gave his only son for such a low return?
"As, by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom. 5:18)

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't accept the view that Jesus was a blasphemer for saying what He said. That He is the only way to God.

No Im accusing you of blasphemy but you knew that ;-)

solodeogloria wrote: »

We have two choices. Either we can hear what Jesus says about Himself or we can ignore Him.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

We have a third choice. We can read the bible and the gospels in the context of the entire text, in the light of tradition and with the guidance of the spirit. A strong dolop of reason helps too.
May the force be with you.
tommy

Is heaven really a prison?

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