Is heaven really a prison?

sbsquarepants

This is a serious question. I was in the process asking in another thread but the thread got closed before I'd finished typing!

Consider this. You've been a good boy, or girl and you've found yourself in heaven after the final whistle. So far, so good - but the days are pretty samey - it's not really a party crowd and the after life is not what you hoped it would be. Can you leave, or are you a captive? If you can leave where could you go?

Does it all basically boil down to a choice of which prison you get to serve out your sentence in?

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Did you read the replies to the other thread before posting on this one?

People aren't "good" at all by definition. Christians aren't "good" in and of themselves. Why so you think Jesus needed to die for us?

If you think that living in right relationship with God and with others as a prison that's your view. Don't expect me to share it though.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Nick Park

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is a serious question. I was in the process asking in another thread but the thread got closed before I'd finished typing!

Consider this. You've been a good boy, or girl and you've found yourself in heaven after the final whistle. So far, so good - but the days are pretty samey - it's not really a party crowd and the after life is not what you hoped it would be. Can you leave, or are you a captive? If you can leave where could you go?

Does it all basically boil down to a choice of which prison you get to serve out your sentence in?

First off, historic Christianity doesn't actually teach that people spend all eternity in some cloudy place in the sky called heaven where disembodied spirits float around. It teaches a resurrection where we receive a new, much improved, body and live together on a new, much improved, earth in the presence of God.

Second, you don't get to reach this point by being a good boy or girl. You get there by faith in Jesus Christ.

Third, the Christian view of this eternity in God's presence is that it will be the ultimate in excitement and enjoyment. It is portrayed as being like a wedding party with superb company and excellent food and wine!

So, no. No prison. No boredom. And a much better party crowd than you're ever going to meet in this life.

sbsquarepants

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Did you read the replies to the other thread before posting on this one?

People aren't "good" at all by definition. Christians aren't "good" in and of themselves. Why so you think Jesus needed to die for us?

If you think that living in right relationship with God and with others as a prison that's your view. Don't expect me to share it though.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

I don't expect you to share anything?

There are clearly good people and bad people. I mean what is the point of the whole final judgement thing if not to lump people into one camp or the other, to separate the good from the bad?

Anyway that was not my question - the question is simply can you choose to leave, should you so desire?

Nick Park wrote: »

First off, historic Christianity doesn't actually teach that people spend all eternity in some cloudy place in the sky called heaven where disembodied spirits float around. It teaches a resurrection where we receive a new, much improved, body and live together on a new, much improved, earth in the presence of God..

Be that as it may, it is for all eternity. Plenty of time to change your opinion or just fancy a change.

Nick Park wrote: »

Second, you don't get to reach this point by being a good boy or girl. You get there by faith in Jesus Christ..

Are you suggesting that Bill could be good but not get in, whereas Phil could be bad yet still get it in?

Nick Park wrote: »

Third, the Christian view of this eternity in God's presence is that it will be the ultimate in excitement and enjoyment. It is portrayed as being like a wedding party with superb company and excellent food and wine!

So, no. No prison. No boredom. And a much better party crowd than you're ever going to meet in this life.

Even the greatest parties wear thin after a while. Eternity is a long time!

The question remains - can you opt out or are you trapped?

Nick Park

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Bill could be good but not get in, whereas Phil could be bad yet still get it in?

Yes. That's what Christians call "the Gospel". It's the Good News that you don't get to share eternity with God on account of your own goodness, but rather because you accepted the free gift of salvation. The technical term for this, one I imagine you've heard before, is "grace".

I mean this in the nicest possible way, and not trying to put you down, but instead of asking about peripheral stuff like whether heaven is a 'prison', maybe you would be better off discovering the basic stuff that Christians believe?

Even the greatest parties wear thin after a while. Eternity is a long time!

No, that isn't what Christians believe. Christianity teaches that the experience of those who share God's presence in eternity is so great that it never wears thin.

So it would seem that you asking about some other 'heaven' rather than anything Christians believe in. In which case you're probably asking your question in the wrong forum.

sbsquarepants

Cheers Nick.

So the short answer is "No - you can not leave"?
The long answer is "No, you can not leave, but sure you wouldn't want to anyway"?

Nick Park

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Cheers Nick.

So the short answer is "No - you can not leave"?
The long answer is "No, you can not leave, but sure you wouldn't want to anyway"?

No.

The short answer is "You wouldn't want to leave."

The long answer is "If you did want to leave, which you wouldn't, then we don't know what the answer would be. Probably because the Bible wasn't written to address hypothetical scenarios that are impossible,"

The Bishop Basher

sbsquarepants wrote: »

There are clearly good people and bad people.

Says who ?

indioblack

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is a serious question. I was in the process asking in another thread but the thread got closed before I'd finished typing!

Consider this. You've been a good boy, or girl and you've found yourself in heaven after the final whistle. So far, so good - but the days are pretty samey - it's not really a party crowd and the after life is not what you hoped it would be. Can you leave, or are you a captive? If you can leave where could you go?

Does it all basically boil down to a choice of which prison you get to serve out your sentence in?

In the Christian tradition, there's Heaven and hell.
If you go to Heaven it's reasonable to assume that that's where you should be - and that that's where you want to be.
Becoming bored with eternity in the one place is probably our response to our own perceptions.
We are limited by our earthly perceptions - once removed from this life most attributes would change - valuations might change in ways we would find hard to describe now.
I doubt if anyone could describe in detail such an existence - assuming there is one.
And on a rainy overcast day in September you'd want a bit more than this miserable Monday!

tommy2bad

Well first off, let me say heaven isn't a place, it's a state of existence. You can no more leave it than you can leave this one. In fact it's closer to getting an education, can you opt out of knowing what you learned?
Nick Park; "Second, you don't get to reach this point by being a good boy or girl. You get there by faith in Jesus Christ."
Yeah, kind of! but not realy. We know that faith in Jesus really helps, in fact we go as far as saying we know for certain faith in Jesus will guarantee a place in heaven. What we don't say is it's the only way to reach heaven.We don't know what other options He has. I would hope we are not so arrogant as to put conditions and limits on God's grace. Remember Jesus died to redeem mankind, all of it, past, present and future. Who achieves heaven is in God's gift. He left us with a set of guidelines we can trust will get us their.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

Actually I think we do say that faith in Jesus is the only way.

John 14:16 ESV wrote:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4:12 ESV wrote:

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

It isn't arrogant to say what Jesus said surely?

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Nick Park

solodeogloria wrote: »

It isn't arrogant to say what Jesus said surely?

Indeed. If Jesus said (as the Bible records Him as doing so) that He is the only way to God, then which is the arrogant response?

a) To humbly submit to the words of Jesus and to agree with Him that He is the only way to God.
b) To say, "Actually, I disagree with Jesus, I think that He is wrong and that I know better and I say there are other ways to God!"

shel64

No Heaven is not a prison,,,,,its Heaven,
No a prison is not Heaven ,its a prison,
So as a Christian I expect to go to Heaven, I do not expect not be bored as that would not be heaven, in the bible its called Heaven,
I copied this, it explains it better than me,

The Bible speaks clearly of the existence of Heaven. It describes a place in which sadness, pain and death itself end once and for all. Beyond that, it gives only hints of what humans will experience beyond death. However, the hints are sufficient to thrill us that humans should anticipate an exhilarating and beautiful experience in the magnificent presence of the Lord God.

Christians look forward to Heaven as place where people will find complete healing and everything about their identity enhanced to its full potential. In that context they will enjoy the love of God and enjoy the love of each other forever.

tommy2bad

Nick Park wrote: »

Indeed. If Jesus said (as the Bible records Him as doing so) that He is the only way to God, then which is the arrogant response?

a) To humbly submit to the words of Jesus and to agree with Him that He is the only way to God.
b) To say, "Actually, I disagree with Jesus, I think that He is wrong and that I know better and I say there are other ways to God!"

a) you'll need to tell me exactly what Jesus ment when He said that. I doubt He was saying tough cheese on all the people who never heard of me, I only died to save my particular set of followers.
b) Where did I disagree with Jesus? I think it's you who are picking and choosing and I think interpreting his words to bolster your position.

sbsquarepants

Swanner wrote: »

Says who ?

Well, me for a start and anyone with an ounce of common sense after that?

Are you telling me there aren't bad people in the world - or good ones for that matter?

Nick Park

tommy2bad wrote: »

a) you'll need to tell me exactly what Jesus ment when He said that. I doubt He was saying tough cheese on all the people who never heard of me, I only died to save my particular set of followers.
b) Where did I disagree with Jesus? I think it's you who are picking and choosing and I think interpreting his words to bolster your position.

He certainly never meant 'bad people go to hell and good people go to heaven' - which was what I was correcting.

Nick Park

Another point worth mentioning is that the Bible tells us that, in eternity, we all become more like Jesus.

"But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

This is good news when you consider that Jesus got invited to all the best parties. So much so that his ultra-religious critics called Him a "wine-bibber and a glutton". People who kept a safe distance from religious killjoys were attracted to Jesus and wanted to spend time with Him.

Think of those occasions when you've enjoyed a really great meal and you're lingering over that extra bottle of wine with a few close friends. There's no silly tensions or resentments, and no-one's trying to put anyone else down. You listen to others sharing some of the experiences they've been through, and the room is filled with warmth and laughter.

Now multiply that experience many times over, where everybody who is at the table has had a personality turbocharge that makes them infinitely kinder, funnier and more interesting.

Prison? I think not.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

tommy2bad:
This is why I would recommend you read the whole of John's gospel through. Jesus explains throughout that it is those who believe who are His. Those who hear His voice and come to Him.

Jesus claims that there are no other ways to God repeatedly throughout the gospels. He seems pretty clear about what that means also.

I understand that that is offensive. But it is largely only offensive to a world that refuses to listen to God's Son.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

The Bishop Basher

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Are you telling me there aren't bad people in the world - or good ones for that matter?

Yes.

People are just people. There are certainly people who do things that we judge to be bad and likewise people who do things that we judge to be good but these judgments are subjective and based on ethical and cultural norms of our time..

Remember we're looking at this from a divine perspective so we have to look outside cultural boundaries, geography, age we live in etc..

So while there are certainly people who the majority of us might collectively judge as bad people, that doesn't actually mean they're bad. It just means we've collectively judged them as so.

It's a subtle but important difference especially in context of this topic.

sbsquarepants

Swanner wrote: »

Yes.

People are just people. There are certainly people who do things that we judge to be bad and likewise people who do things that we judge to be good but these judgments are subjective and based on ethical and cultural norms of our time..

Remember we're looking at this from a divine perspective so we have to look outside cultural boundaries, geography, age we live in etc..

So while there are certainly people who the majority of us might collectively judge as bad people, that doesn't actually mean they're bad. It just means we've collectively judged them as so.

It's a subtle but important difference especially in context of this topic.

Sorry swanner, it's neither subtle nor important - it's nonsense.

Larry Murphy for example - is he just bad from the ethical and cultural norms of our time?
What about Ian Huntley - outside what cultural boundary exactly could he be viewed as anything other that a bad person?
What about Charles Manson, Ted Bundy or lets really ramp it up - Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot for gods sake.

Only god can judge? No, sorry swanner - I claim that right also!

The Bishop Basher

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Only god can judge? No, sorry swanner - I claim that right also!

I never said only God can judge, And I never suggested you can't. Of course you can. We all can.

But in the context of discussing who goes to which "prison" on passing from this life, your judgements, my judgements and our collective judgements are all utterly irrelevant.

sbsquarepants

I know you never said it - I assumed that was what you were getting at. A silly assumption to make in fairness.

I do think you're point that there aren't bad people is ridiculous though. There quite obviously are plenty of people who are bad full stop, not bad when judged against the days norms or societies preferences - just bad, through and through no matter what way you look at them.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

I think they key question is bad in comparison to what?

Christians don't compare themselves to other people. We might well be good or bad in comparison to other people but that is a defective yardstick for morality. Saying I'm good because I'm not as bad as a murderer is silly.

Rather the Christian compares themselves to the holy standards that God has set before us in His word. We all come our guilty because all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. (Romans 3:23)

In other words we haven't lived as we ought to and we've not loved God and others as we should.

We're all guilty. We all deserve God's judgement but He sent His Son instead.

This is the logical core of Christianity and why Jesus had to come. To forgive wretched sinners like you and I. I'm only good in so far as Jesus stood in my place on the cross.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

uck51js9zml2yt

If you want to leave, you wouldn't want to be there in the first place. Being "a good boy" doesn't cut it either.
I'm sorry, I just can't take this thread seriously

The Bishop Basher

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I do think you're point that there aren't bad people is ridiculous though. There quite obviously are plenty of people who are bad full stop, not bad when judged against the days norms or societies preferences - just bad, through and through no matter what way you look at them.

But as long as you consider these people bad, then you are judging them against the days norms or societies preferences.

There's nothing wrong with doing that by the way, but to be bad, they must be bad in relation to some sort of set of rules or ethical code..

Take away the norms and preferences and all your left with are people doing things.. they can only become bad when we judge them to be so..

tommy2bad

Nick Park wrote: »

He certainly never meant 'bad people go to hell and good people go to heaven' - which was what I was correcting.

Ahh OK. It's important to not loose sight of the fact that it is god who saves, we cannot save ourselves. Which kinda contradicts the notion that God can't save the people He chooses to because they didn't " find Jesus" .

tommy2bad

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

tommy2bad:
This is why I would recommend you read the whole of John's gospel through. Jesus explains throughout that it is those who believe who are His. Those who hear His voice and come to Him.

Jesus claims that there are no other ways to God repeatedly throughout the gospels. He seems pretty clear about what that means also.

I understand that that is offensive. But it is largely only offensive to a world that refuses to listen to God's Son.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Yes and He ment that to mean throes who hear my voice as preached by some self selecting few.?
I'm not saying you can get to heaven without Jesus. It's the whole point of the incarnation. Jesus was the only one who could redeem us. He did, it's done, say thanks! Stop telling Jesus how it worked, I sincerely doubt you know any better than anyone else.
Damn right it's offensive, bordering on blasphemous.
May you walk in the grace and favour of the Lord.
A lapsed heathen.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

I'm not telling Jesus anything. He has spoken Himself.
I'm simply listening to what He has said to us in His Word

I don't accept the view that Jesus was a blasphemer for saying what He said. That He is the only way to God.

We have two choices. Either we can hear what Jesus says about Himself or we can ignore Him.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Stealthfins

I'll settle for a dreamless sleep myself.
Basically that's what it probably is until the day we supposedly are raised from the dead by the aliens using our DNA to replicate us 😉

manonboard

Op, It's interesting how you seem very inclined to want to believe there are good people and bad people. They are very black and white judgments. Even if you do believe such things, it makes alot more sense to qualify it to say that everyone starts out a blank canvas and most of their behavior is based on their conditioning/upbringing. This conditioning and upbringing is based large on their environmental context, which in a way shows that it couldn't be innate to a person, and is simply a matter of cultural norms being imposed on them.
To view something and inherently good and bad is quite flawed, but very common. The mind likes to categorize things quickly and in a definite form.

For instance, this conversation. You may judge me bad because I won't think anyone is bad (many consequences from this), and i may judge you bad because you label people with your own projections of good and bad(lots of negatives from that, lots of shoulds get imposed by emotions if you think that way). This very exchange shows we have different cultural norms within our own society leading to different "judgement" of good and bad, which although it doesn't invalidate them, it does show them to be not absolute but quite subjective.

Something I noticed with people who think this way, I'd like to ask you about if your interested in replying. For your views to be held true, they also must be applicable to you. So do you think you are possibly a bad person? Or you could one day be a bad person if you fail to do certain good things? Does this lead to a problem where you self esteem must dip down from time to time since your actions can bring you closer to being a 'bad' person?

tommy2bad

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm not telling Jesus anything. He has spoken Himself.
I'm simply listening to what He has said to us in His Word

No.
You are not listening to what He said, you are insisting He said something and then telling everyone else what you think it means. You are wrong for the simple reason that if you are right then no jew, hindu, sikh, muslim or non sola scriptura christian will get to heaven. Which keeps about 90% of all humanity out of the plan. You really think God gave his only son for such a low return?
"As, by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom. 5:18)

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't accept the view that Jesus was a blasphemer for saying what He said. That He is the only way to God.

No Im accusing you of blasphemy but you knew that ;-)

solodeogloria wrote: »

We have two choices. Either we can hear what Jesus says about Himself or we can ignore Him.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

We have a third choice. We can read the bible and the gospels in the context of the entire text, in the light of tradition and with the guidance of the spirit. A strong dolop of reason helps too.
May the force be with you.
tommy

Nick Park

tommy2bad wrote: »

We have a third choice. We can read the bible and the gospels in the context of the entire text, in the light of tradition and with the guidance of the spirit. A strong dolop of reason helps too.
May the force be with you.
tommy

Well actually you should read all communications in context.

So, Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father. The New Testament says on numerous that salvation is by faith in Christ.

Now, you say that should be read in context. That Jesus was not referring to someone on a deserted island who has never heard the Gospel. That he was talking to Jews who had heard his message. Fair enough.

But .....

I say to spongebobsquarepants that spending eternity with God is not about whether you are good or bad, and is through faith in Jesus. The context is that I am talking to someone on an Irish discussion board where we have both heard about Jesus. Obviously I am not referring to someone on a desert island who has never heard of Jesus.

Yet you proceed to pick holes in what I'm saying, ignoring the context. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it when it comes to context or using a dollop of reason.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

I don't think that we should be so hasty about calling others blasphemers. I'm simply reading what Jesus has said.

If you read Romans as a whole you will see that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus. For example - why did Paul write this a few verses before in Romans?

Romans 4:22-5:2 ESV wrote:

That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness”. But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Why does chapter 5 begin with therefore, referring to the faith in Jesus that leads to justification in 4:25?

And this in chapter 3:

Romans 3:21-26 ESV wrote:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Similarly if you read John as a whole you will see that Jesus says that it is those who trust in Him who have eternal life.
I agree that these truths are offensive but Jesus did say these things. Let's look together at what He's said about Himself in John:

John 3:16-18 ESV wrote:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

And again in chapter 3:

John 3:34-36 ESV wrote:

For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 5:22-24 ESV wrote:

The Father judges no one, but has given all judgement to the Son, that all may honour the Son, just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life.

John 8:23-25 ESV wrote:

He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.

This is a small selection, you could go on and on and on from the gospels.

They are hard. My life would be much easier if these things weren't true. I could spend more of my time for myself instead of helping others understand Jesus better at church and vice versa. I could keep my head down and avoid telling friends about Jesus.

But Jesus died for a reason. If we didn't need Him for our salvation His death was well and truly for nothing.

I understand that you mean well, but it isn't true that Jesus said that any religion is OK. He didn't.

He is our Lord and He offers life to this world if they come to trust in Him because He is the only name under heaven by which man can be saved. Not Allah, not Buddha, not Krishna but Jesus. As we saw Peter say in Acts 4:12.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

tommy2bad

Nick Park wrote: »

Well actually you should read all communications in context.

So, Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father. The New Testament says on numerous that salvation is by faith in Christ.

Now, you say that should be read in context. That Jesus was not referring to someone on a deserted island who has never heard the Gospel. That he was talking to Jews who had heard his message. Fair enough.

But .....

I say to spongebobsquarepants that spending eternity with God is not about whether you are good or bad, and is through faith in Jesus. The context is that I am talking to someone on an Irish discussion board where we have both heard about Jesus. Obviously I am not referring to someone on a desert island who has never heard of Jesus.

Yet you proceed to pick holes in what I'm saying, ignoring the context. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it when it comes to context or using a dollop of reason.

Having my cake and sharing it Nick.
It's an interesting concept, that the rules would situation specific, it might even be right but when I recomend reading within a context I don't mean the context you exist in. I mean the context the writers exist in. But you knew that
Heaven is not a prison, it's not even a place. Getting there depends on God not us. The gospels help guide us to that 'place' but to insist that faith in Jesus is the only way is a half truth. It's the only way we are certain of. If spongebobsquarepants wants to take his or her chances with God's mercy then that's up to them. Though rejecting the gospel isn't a sign it's going to end well, I'm not going to tell anyone they are destined for Hell. They probably don't believe in it anyway.

tommy2bad

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!

I don't think that we should be so hasty about calling others blasphemers. I'm simply reading what Jesus has said.

If you read Romans as a whole you will see that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus. For example - why did Paul write this a few verses before in Romans?


Why does chapter 5 begin with therefore, referring to the faith in Jesus that leads to justification in 4:25?

And this in chapter 3:


Similarly if you read John as a whole you will see that Jesus says that it is those who trust in Him who have eternal life.
I agree that these truths are offensive but Jesus did say these things. Let's look together at what He's said about Himself in John:

And again in chapter 3:




This is a small selection, you could go on and on and on from the gospels.

They are hard. My life would be much easier if these things weren't true. I could spend more of my time for myself instead of helping others understand Jesus better at church and vice versa. I could keep my head down and avoid telling friends about Jesus.

But Jesus died for a reason. If we didn't need Him for our salvation His death was well and truly for nothing.

I understand that you mean well, but it isn't true that Jesus said that any religion is OK. He didn't.

He is our Lord and He offers life to this world if they come to trust in Him because He is the only name under heaven by which man can be saved. Not Allah, not Buddha, not Krishna but Jesus. As we saw Peter say in Acts 4:12.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Just the bit in bold as I'm not getting into a text battle, those things lead nowhere and usually end up with the much quoted line "the devil can quote scripture......" Nor am I interested in restarting the reformation battle over faith versus works.
What I am interested in is the notion that Christ's death only works with conditions and only form a single point and direction on time's arrow. This I find odd as it sets limits on God's redemption. It traps grace in a time bound world and strikes me as an attempt to box god into some human construct.

Still working this out in my head but the notion that God would not only abandon but condemn most of his creation for no reason other than capriciousness. If God is that needy and vindictive then? Well would you offer worship to it? I would burn its temples and tear down it's idols. A god who has no criterion other than obedience to him isn't a God, it's a tyrant.
May the road rise to meet you etc...
tommy

solodeogloria

Good morning!

So I guess we both agree that Jesus and Paul did say and write these things? This isn't me doing anything. It is what God has said in His Word.

It seems that it is that you don't like what they said about belief in Christ. Not liking something isn't the same as it not being true.

It seems that instead of hearing what God is saying that you are deciding what He has said yourself. But God gets to define who He is and He has spoken in these last days through His Son (Hebrews 1:1)

I agree that God has shown immense mercy towards those who repent. It is an incredible offer but it must be received.

It isn't arrogant to believe in God's Word. It is arrogant to ignore what God has said and say I like to think of God as ... in it's place.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

looksee

It isn't arrogant to believe in God's Word. It is arrogant to ignore what God has said and say I like to think of God as ... in it's place.

If, for the sake of this discussion, I accept the existence of God, and accept that he acts and thinks in a human way (...made man in his own image), and I accept that he came to earth in the human form of Jesus, then I have the basis for belief. All the above is supernatural and if I believe it happened, then it did/does.

However the Bible is a man made object. It is a collection of ancient writings and those writings were by men, fallible men. There are omissions and contradictions in the gospels, minor things but still, the kind of errors that men might make. If it is the word of God, then why include errors, however minor? Any of us can read any history or biography ever written and say, but it didn't happen exactly like that, the author is putting a slight slant on it to prove the point he wants to make.

None of this would matter, except that the writings have been read and translated and rewritten over two thousand years, and yet fine shades of meaning are taken from them to state categorically that this is what God meant. This is where belief comes in, for a second time.

You can believe in God, which does not need any bible structure, it is simply belief in something you feel is true. But then, to be a Christian, you have to believe in the bible - which is a much more fragile belief as it involves human input and interpretation, and the bible is used to put words in God's mouth and bestow human emotions, opinions and frailties on him.

Is it not the case that the human mind is not - usually - capable of grasping the immensity of God, and has to put human limits on him in order to be able to cope with the idea. Different people through history have put their own limitations on him and then tied themselves in knots trying to account for every shade of opinion, contradiction and desire that occurs to them. These are individuals who have come to their conclusions; who is to say that an individual's wish to do his own interpretation is not just as valid as those of the 'experts' who have gone before.

Solodegloria chooses to accept one if those interpretations, and in order to validate his views requires that numbers of other people agree with him. He follows one belief; how much simpler, and more honest, life would be if everyone was allowed to have their own belief without others insisting that their way is right?

Nick Park

looksee wrote: »

Solodegloria chooses to accept one if those interpretations, and in order to validate his views requires that numbers of other people agree with him. He follows one belief; how much simpler, and more honest, life would be if everyone was allowed to have their own belief without others insisting that their way is right?

Really? I don't see solodeogloria requiring anyone else to agree with him. I see him as stating his beliefs, while another poster counters by stating his beliefs.

That's what happens on an internet discussion forum.

And now here you come along, apparently with no sense of irony, insisting that your view of the reliability of the Bible is right?

Of course solodeogloria insists that his way is right. So do the vast majority of people who post on boards.ie. They would hardly be arguing for a position if they thought that their position was actually wrong, would they?

In fact, if everyone followed your prescription for going through life without insisting that one's way is right, then this forum would have a lot less traffic, bearing in mind that a large proportion of the posts here are from atheists telling Christians how wrong they are to believe what they do.

looksee

And now here you come along, apparently with no sense of irony, insisting that your view of the reliability of the Bible is right?

I have not insisted on anything, I have put forward a question I was hoping to get some sort of answer to, rather than your diversion.

solodeogloria

Good morning looksee!

I disagree with the second paragraph. Christians believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Jesus Himself understood the Scriptures to be inerrant and He Himself understood that the Holy Spirit would guide the Apostles according to what He had already told them.

I also disagree with the third paragraph. There is no evidence that the Bible was rewritten. Scholarship proves the opposite. Translation is also a red herring. We've got more copies of the New Testament than any other ancient text. You can even see some for yourself at the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin.

I don't share your assumptions about the Bible, and they are merely assumptions.

I also don't really require numbers. There's not many conservative evangelicals where I am. I only require the Bible to say what it says. As I said already in many ways my life would be easier if I wasn't convinced this was true.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

sbsquarepants

manonboard wrote: »

Op, It's interesting how you seem very inclined to want to believe there are good people and bad people. They are very black and white judgments. Even if you do believe such things, it makes alot more sense to qualify it to say that everyone starts out a blank canvas and most of their behavior is based on their conditioning/upbringing. This conditioning and upbringing is based large on their environmental context, which in a way shows that it couldn't be innate to a person, and is simply a matter of cultural norms being imposed on them.
To view something and inherently good and bad is quite flawed, but very common. The mind likes to categorize things quickly and in a definite form. ?

I don't "want" to believe anymore than I want to believe there are short people and tall people, or rich people and poor people. There is no exact definition of being short or being tall but common sense will tell you some people are tall and some are short.

manonboard wrote: »

For instance, this conversation. You may judge me bad because I won't think anyone is bad (many consequences from this), and i may judge you bad because you label people with your own projections of good and bad(lots of negatives from that, lots of shoulds get imposed by emotions if you think that way). This very exchange shows we have different cultural norms within our own society leading to different "judgement" of good and bad, which although it doesn't invalidate them, it does show them to be not absolute but quite subjective.?

I wouldn't judge you as bad or good based on the above - I'd judge you as being a little naïve maybe, but good and bad are entirely different concepts.

manonboard wrote: »

Something I noticed with people who think this way, I'd like to ask you about if your interested in replying. For your views to be held true, they also must be applicable to you. So do you think you are possibly a bad person? Or you could one day be a bad person if you fail to do certain good things? Does this lead to a problem where you self esteem must dip down from time to time since your actions can bring you closer to being a 'bad' person?

I do of course think this applies to me as much as to anyone else.
Am I a bad person? Not particularly.
Am I a good person? Not particularly.
I'm one of the vast majority who are pretty average, neither exclusively good, nor bad more a mixture of both.
If you picture it as like a bell curve I'm firmly in the middle, the good and bad people are the ones towards either edge, they are more pronounced but less common, until you hit the almost horizontal part of the curve where the real exceptions live, the outliers. On one side you have the people who donate kidneys to strangers, and spend their lives working in Guatemalan slums for the benefit of poor kids and stuff like that, on the other you have the ones who abduct kids to rape and torture, or spark genocides and so on.
These are the ones who are OBJECTIVELY good and bad, not when viewed through any cultural or societal prism.

I find it quite bizarre that people doubt their existence.

recedite

Nick Park wrote: »

Third, the Christian view of this eternity in God's presence is that it will be the ultimate in excitement and enjoyment. It is portrayed as being like a wedding party with superb company and excellent food and wine!

OK, I'm in.
Who do I make the cheque out to? There seems to be couple of different ticket offices, all claiming to be the official one.

Nick Park

recedite wrote: »

OK, I'm in.
Who do I make the cheque out to? There seems to be couple of different ticket offices, all claiming to be the official one.

Probably safer to cut out the touts and go straight to the Man Himself.

recedite

But its like McDonalds*, its very hard to get in direct contact with Ronald at head office.

*except the food and drink is going to be better, apparently.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

OK, I'm in.
Who do I make the cheque out to? There seems to be couple of different ticket offices, all claiming to be the official one.

You might want to check that the goods are as advertised before signing that cheque. Equating wedding parties with the ultimate in excitement seems rather dubious to this punter

looksee

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning looksee!

I disagree with the second paragraph. Christians believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Jesus Himself understood the Scriptures to be inerrant and He Himself understood that the Holy Spirit would guide the Apostles according to what He had already told them.

You know this because it is written in the bible? Isn't that a circular argument? The gospels were not written until after Jesus' death. 'He himself understood' - how is it known what Jesus understood?

I also disagree with the third paragraph. There is no evidence that the Bible was rewritten. Scholarship proves the opposite. Translation is also a red herring. We've got more copies of the New Testament than any other ancient text. You can even see some for yourself at the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin.

I agree, I was in error referring to 'rewritten', I should have said copied or or transcribed.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-versions/ And these are only the recent ones.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

looksee wrote: »

You know this because it is written in the bible? Isn't that a circular argument? The gospels were not written until after Jesus' death. 'He himself understood' - how is it known what Jesus understood?

The gospel accounts were written within a life time of Jesus. They offer specific times, places, and people who were present when He was with us. Anyone who was in any way sceptical of these events could have openly discredited them if they were untrue. In other words the New Testament makes itself totally verifiable.

I suspect this isn't tommy2bad's objection. His claim was that Jesus didn't say these things. According to the best eyewitness testimony He did. tommy2bad also quoted Romans and I showed him that it doesn't teach universal salvation.

looksee wrote: »

I agree, I was in error referring to 'rewritten', I should have said copied or or transcribed.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-versions/ And these are only the recent ones.

This point only seems meaningful if you can demonstrate that different Bible translations teach different things. I doubt this was his objection either.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

sbsquarepants

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good evening!



The gospel accounts were written within a life time of Jesus. They offer specific times, places, and people who were present when He was with us. Anyone who was in any way sceptical of these events could have openly discredited them if they were untrue. In other words the New Testament makes itself totally verifiable.

Even in extremely recent history there are wildly different versions of events. Pick up any even reputable newspaper today and what you get is spin, not facts - add 20, 30 years of Chinese whispers and you're on very shaky ground.

Leroy42

Isn't the problem with the OP the understanding of eternal.

They are looking at it as an infinite passage of time and wondering how they could possibly be satisfied with 'groundhog day'.

But surely God, and therefore heaven, exists outside of time. On the basis that God created the universe, and with it time itself, it stands to reason that God exists outside of time. So time, at least as we understand it in the physical universe, is not operating in heaven.

Boredom, as implied by the OP, is a result of the passage of time, and since no time passes in heaven no boredom can happen.

sbsquarepants

Leroy42 wrote: »

Isn't the problem with the OP the understanding of eternal.

They are looking at it as an infinite passage of time and wondering how they could possibly be satisfied with 'groundhog day'.

But surely God, and therefore heaven, exists outside of time. On the basis that God created the universe, and with it time itself, it stands to reason that God exists outside of time. So time, at least as we understand it in the physical universe, is not operating in heaven.

Boredom, as implied by the OP, is a result of the passage of time, and since no time passes in heaven no boredom can happen.

If no time passes nothing can happen, the passage of time is the difference between a photo and a video.

To be honest, the more I hear about this heaven place - the less appealing, more like a prison it sounds. I'm genuinely baffled by a lot of peoples desire to get there

Leroy42

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If no time passes nothing can happen, the passage of time is the difference between a photo and a video.

To be honest, the more I hear about this heaven place - the less appealing, more like a prison it sounds. I'm genuinely baffled by a lot of peoples desire to get there

You are still taking time as we currently understand it. Now, I don't understand it either, but based on God being outside time etc then it stands to reason that Heaven exists outside of time.

You seem also to be thinking that heaven is just a replacement Earth, that you will be playing soccer or pool etc up there. But Heaven is more a state of grace, a oneness with God. It's not about doing anything, its about being with God.

The reason why is sounds so unappealing is that you are putting physical conditions that you understand (time, things to do etc) onto heaven. But surely you can see that if heaven does exist then it exists outside of our universe and as such is not constrained by our laws.