Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 11:08AM

Korat wrote: »

Who gave away the penalty at the end?

Fellaini, obviously. I said already that the way he started racking up frees and the penalty against towards the end of the game wasn't good enough. But even with that he has still been one of our best players so far this season and so him getting a start is not bizarre, as MD1990 called it.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 11:16AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Another big chance for some players on Thursday to stake a claim.

It's Wednesday, thankfully. Then Leicester on Saturday noon.

Nalz · 19-09-2016 11:24AM

Pro. F wrote: »

Fellaini, obviously. I said already that the way he started racking up frees and the penalty against towards the end of the game wasn't good enough. But even with that he has still been one of our best players so far this season and so him getting a start is not bizarre, as MD1990 called it.

Him, Blind, Shaw and Ibra have been the highlights this season so far.

I want more gametime for Mata and Martial & Rooney to improve.

Pogba will come good I'm sure of it

bangkok · 19-09-2016 11:26AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Fellaini. A soft penalty after Bailly made a bags of it twice, Valencia was nowhere to be seen, and I don't know what Smalling was doing.

Are you relating Fellaini giving away a penalty as a link to criticising his play? He's made an excellent start to this season

And if he is as bad or doesn't deserve his spot as people claim, then Schneiderlan and Herrera and Blind are busted flushes and shouldn't be at the club. If Fellaini is so poor, that they cannot dislodge him.

maybe because he was substituted 30mins before hand..

bangkok · 19-09-2016 11:35AM

Pro. F wrote: »

He was filling in in the back-line for Smalling who had had to go out wide once Martial had been beaten. That's what the DM should be doing. The reason there was so much space for Capoue was because too many of our front six and the left-back had committed forward before we had properly secured the ball.

there was no need for him to go in there, he was marking nobody, Bailly had igahlo, valencia had deeney, fellaini wasnt aware capoue was behind him, it was very poor from him

DM_7 · 19-09-2016 11:43AM

bangkok wrote: »

there was no need for him to go in there, he was marking nobody, Bailly had igahlo, valencia had deeney, fellaini wasnt aware capoue was behind him, it was very poor from him

You do realise Fellaini is under instruction to get back into the defensive line for headers?

Its a weakness when he is under that instruction, one other teams will exploit unless another player with defensive responsibilities is added to midfield or he is no longer assigned that task.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 11:54AM

bangkok wrote: »

there was no need for him to go in there, he was marking nobody, Bailly had igahlo, valencia had deeney, fellaini wasnt aware capoue was behind him, it was very poor from him

He doesn't need to be marking anybody. When one of the CBs goes wide and the ball is wide it is normal for the DM to drop into the line, regardless of whether there is a player to be marked or not. Fellaini is actually tracking Ighalo early in his run, but then continues into the back-line when Ighalo peals off towards the near post, as he should. If Fellaini had not dropped into the back-line then it would have been two-on-two right in front of the goal when the ball came in - that is not acceptable.

bangkok · 19-09-2016 11:57AM

Pro. F wrote: »

He doesn't need to be marking anybody. When one of the CBs goes wide and the ball is wide it is normal for the DM to drop into the line, regardless of whether there is a player to be marked or not. Fellaini is actually tracking Ighalo early in his run, but then continues into the back-line when Ighalo peals off towards the near post, as he should. If Fellaini had not dropped into the back-line then it would have been two-on-two right in front of the goal when the ball came in - that is not acceptable.

2 on 2 is better than nobody on 1 at the edge of the box. that is basic defending

Korat · 19-09-2016 12:04PM

I think Fellaini has been one of the better players this season he's a lot more effective than he been since he was signed but..

...he's still a liability. He gives away too many free kicks and though the penalty didn't decide the game he's always capable of doing something like that. He elbowed another player in the head yesterday a different ref could have sent him off for it.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 12:09PM

bangkok wrote: »

2 on 2 is better than nobody on 1 at the edge of the box. that is basic defending

Basic defending says that you get numerical superiority in the back-line and cover the front, middle and back of the goal and then the rest of the team filters back to pick up the opposition players who are standing off that.

sReq | uTeK · 19-09-2016 12:17PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I did clearly state it. When sankratz took issue with my use of the word minnows I clarified what I meant:
"The strongest team in the Eredivisie are minnows compared to where United should be at. We were gash last season too and LVG was rightly sacked because of it."

That is not true. The only players (positions actually) that I specifically mentioned were the defence and the wide midfielders.

Fair enough point 1 my bad.

Point two you're side stepping, if you still believe that Rooney should be starting on present form and past form as you like to point out then thats just delusional

bangkok · 19-09-2016 12:20PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Basic defending says that you get numerical superiority in the back-line and cover the front, middle and back of the goal and then the rest of the team filters back to pick up the opposition players who are standing off that.

but in the situation yesterday where martial was fouled in the build up, fellaini should have been on capoue and goal would have been avoided. numerical superiority yes in normal play but when you are caught out like we were yesterday fellaini should have been on capoue and he left him free 18 yards out in front of our goal

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 12:21PM

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Point two you're side stepping, if you still believe that Rooney should be starting on present form and past form as you like to point out then thats just delusional

You claimed that I did the rounds on every player omitting Rooney. That was not true. There is no side stepping here. You made a claim about what I had said which was untrue.

sReq | uTeK · 19-09-2016 12:22PM

Pro. F wrote: »

He was filling in in the back-line for Smalling who had had to go out wide once Martial had been beaten. That's what the DM should be doing. The reason there was so much space for Capoue was because too many of our front six and the left-back had committed forward before we had properly secured the ball.

Yup 100% correct, the moment Martial got the ball there was about 5 players BOMBING forward before we secured the possession. If anything Fellani was the only one with the guile to hold back a little and see how the play developed, it showed his experience, not lack of it.

I do still believe that the way forward in the game is for quick, mobile players who can get around the pitch quickly and still play the correct forward pass when needed. aka Kante.

I honestly believe that Herreria and Fellani/Morgan would be significantly better with Pogba in Rooneys roll or a little bit deeper and let loose.

sReq | uTeK · 19-09-2016 12:24PM

Pro. F wrote: »

You claimed that I did the rounds on every player omitting Rooney. That was not true. There is no side stepping here. You made a claim about what I had said which was untrue.

Okay, fair point, I'll admit you're right on that.

However, care to elaborate on how you feel Rooney is doing in this team and if we have the potential to be better with him out of it.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 12:32PM

bangkok wrote: »

but in the situation yesterday where martial was fouled in the build up, fellaini should have been on capoue and goal would have been avoided. numerical superiority yes in normal play but when you are caught out like we were yesterday fellaini should have been on capoue and he left him free 18 yards out in front of our goal

It was four on four including Capou and Janmaat (who crossed it). As you say we were caught out (it just being after a set-piece and too many of the front six having broken forward) - given that, there was no reason that Fellaini should have been on Capoue any more than any of the other four defenders. Smalling had gone to try and stop the cross. Valencia was at the back trying to stop Deeney from scoring. Bailly and Fellaini were near the front post. Ighalo made a run off the pair of them that drew both of their eyes, and goal face still needed a defender in it.

Blaming Fell for that goal, instead of the overall defencesive organisation, is wrong.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 12:58PM

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Okay, fair point, I'll admit you're right on that.

However, care to elaborate on how you feel Rooney is doing in this team and if we have the potential to be better with him out of it.

Fair play.

I think he tanked early in the second half yesterday and I would have subbed him then. Although, to be fair to Jose, he had already been forced into a sub with Martial and, in the second half, he only subbed attackers on for defenders. So you can see his logic.

Up until that second half yesterday I think Rooney has very much been a net positive and - along with Ibra, Fell and Pogba - has been one of our best players. I think the wide players have been a huge problem (Rashford might well be the fix for one side) in that front six.

Would we do better without Rooney? I think if Herrera came in (or maybe Carrick) to that CM and Pogba pushed up to number 10, that might work. We would maybe get a better base of possession and defensive shape and Pogba might play well in that #10 role. Pogba didn't play at #10 behind a single striker at Juve, and Hererra and Fellaini are relatively untested as a pair, so we'd have to see how it all worked out.

Overall, I think that could work, but I'm not overly convinced by it. And I think the overall problems in the team run a good bit deeper than that proposed fix would address.

TitianGerm · 19-09-2016 01:15PM

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Perhaps you should clearly state it then. On current and past 3 year form you wouldn't put United much ahead of them.

I know you mentioned form over the last three years but in fairness he is right. Feynoord are minnows compared to United.

If they were in the PL they would be a bottom half club at best.

Rayne Wooney · 19-09-2016 01:19PM

Seems to be a case of Murphy's law with us, everything seems to be going wrong.

The players even look unfit two months into the season.

markc91 · 19-09-2016 01:21PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Seems to be a case of Murphy's law with us, everything seems to be going wrong.

The players even look unfit two months into the season.

Speaking of looking unfit...http://www.joe.co.uk/sport/manchester-united-have-covered-less-ground-than-any-other-premier-league-team-this-season/86911

TheDoc · 19-09-2016 01:32PM

bangkok wrote: »

maybe because he was substituted 30mins before hand..

haha, nice one!

Ashley Young then who was playing right back. We didn't move to a flat back three as far as I recall.

Separately I see that whilst headlines indicated Mourinho singled out Luke Shaw (he singled out that scenario, which could have applied to Shaw, but also anyone near that side of the pitch) "senior players are said to be baffled and annoyed" at the treatment of Shaw.

Who now seemingly gets therapy session to help cope with playing for Manchester United.......

Either Rooney is off early this season seeing the writing on the wall, or we are already witnessing a the dreaded Jose effect.

I'm going to take it as Rooeny off early and/or wild speculation, but really need to put some performances and wins together to move out of this narrative building

TheDoc · 19-09-2016 01:36PM

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Seems to be a case of Murphy's law with us, everything seems to be going wrong.

The players even look unfit two months into the season.

Yeah whats the story with the teams general lead in their legs. We have fast players, we have slick passers. The team seems to be operating at 1mph. It's incredible when you look at the speed of other teams.

Surely can't be a fitness thing. Maybe just confidence low or lack of mental strength, but like there was times yesterday with Smalling or Bailly strolling with the ball out.

Can I blame Rooney?

I think whats more concerning is you say Mourinho giving those instructions. The clenched fist pumping down, the universal "lift it". Pogba said it a few times, Zlatan was giving lashings when he was back defending set pieces. So clearly people on the pitch are recognizing it, the manager recognizes it, but its not changing?

I think in all of this I have to remember Mourinho is a world class coach. He's brilliant. Sure he might be affected after Chelsea MKII, but we won't know until the season is over. This is a brilliant manager. I simply HAVe to believe everything I see wrong, he does also. Everything we all see wrong, he sees also. I have to believe, that a guy who seems to plan for everything, knows what the story is. He knows what needs doing, and his method or plan just isn't obvious to us yet.

I simply can't believe he is unsure or confused about this situation. A team he watched meticulously for six months. A team he seemed to outline to Woodward needed to do this and that, had this and that problem, needed this and that player.

I'm sincerely hoping things become more obvious in the weeks to come.

KH25 · 19-09-2016 02:09PM

I think the team needs to be changed. Rooney isn't a midfielder: keep him away from there. If he's out of form at 10, then either drop him or play him as the striker (unlikely with Zlatan I know).

Play Pogba in his natural position and (IMO) stick Hererra in there too with one of Carrick, Morgan or Fellaini.

At the back I would still say we need a proper RB if Darmian is not going to get played. Valencia just isn't good enough against the bigger sides IMO.

TheDoc · 19-09-2016 02:13PM

Like at what expense are some of the squad getting pissed off. I'm thinking of Carrick, Hererra and Schneiderlan. Manager comes in and makes a big statement that Rooney is not a midfielder, and correctly so. Then to showhorn him in, Rooney starts in midfield. I thought Hererra showed more then enough against Feyenoord to show he has a role to play in this team should be midfield three be used. Same for Schneiderlan.

I'd be fuming if I was them, Hererra moreso. And whatever about Rooney being a senior player taking grievances to management, if I was Hererra I'd be into Mourinhos office today asking whats the ****ing story.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 02:18PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Like at what expense are some of the squad getting pissed off. I'm thinking of Carrick, Hererra and Schneiderlan. Manager comes in and makes a big statement that Rooney is not a midfielder, and correctly so. Then to showhorn him in, Rooney starts in midfield. I thought Hererra showed more then enough against Feyenoord to show he has a role to play in this team should be midfield three be used. Same for Schneiderlan.

I'd be fuming if I was them, Hererra moreso. And whatever about Rooney being a senior player taking grievances to management, if I was Hererra I'd be into Mourinhos office today asking whats the ****ing story.

Hasn't happened. In the summer Jose said he saw Rooney as a 9, 9-and-a-half or a 10. He played him at 10. Not in midfield.

Nalz · 19-09-2016 02:29PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Hasn't happened. In the summer Jose said he saw Rooney as a 9, 9-and-a-half or a 10. He played him at 10. Not in midfield.

Some people call an AM who likes to drop back and play the QB hollywood overhit by 10 yards passes a midfield position.

Pro. F · 19-09-2016 03:07PM

Nalz wrote: »

Some people call an AM who likes to drop back and play the QB hollywood overhit by 10 yards passes a midfield position.

Rooney has played as a #10. If some people think of #10s as midfielders that's fair enough. But Doc specifically referred to what Mourinho had said about Rooney's position in the summer (the "big statement," as Doc put it) and was portraying it as Jose having gone back on what he had said in the summer by playing Rooney in midfield. But Jose made the distinction between 10 and midfield in the summer and referred to Rooney as a #10 (as well as a 9) in that context. So Jose is doing what he said.

19-09-2016 03:09PM

Pro. F wrote: »

There is no reason for me not to talk about where United should be at. United should be beating minnows like Feyenoord (even taking into consideration the squad rotation). The current reality is that United are struggling, even against minnows like Feyenoord. If that keeps up for a few months then Jose will, rightly, be sacked. Because everybody expects that United should handle minnows like Feyenoord comfortably.

We should be beating them out the gate. And just because our current form is gash, that doesn't stop them being minnows compared to a club like United. We dwarf them in terms of spending power, cost of squad, cost of manager and expectation.

That's grand in terms of club history, prestige, past success, future potential, where the club 'should' be at. Comparing them on that scale, United dwarf Feyenoord. If that is the metric for measuring minnows though, then most teams we face are minnows. What about the minnows who put 3 past us yesterday or the ones who Mike Phelan is in charge of and nearly held us to a scoreless draw a few weeks ago?

In current footballing ability context, which I have to believe was the context used since you were talking about goals conceded in recent games in your OP, 'minnows' is the wrong word to use to describe Feyenoord. You probably still don't agree with me, but I would have thought that 'minnows' would be better reserved for teams like Midtjylland and MK Dons who really should never be beating us, ever. A team which is topping the Eredivisie with 6/6 wins, beating everyone they face including PSV who comprehensively beat us last year (no matter which manager was in charge*) belong in a different bracket I feel.

For the record, I've never typed the word 'minnows' so much in my life, cheers Pro :pac:

*It doesn't matter which manager was in charge. And I say this as someone who believed that LVG was harnessing the players ability and instinct, and that any good manager installed, never mind a Jose, would see a noticeable improvement in the players' form. As we've seen though, even with Jose in charge, that hasn't happened yet. If it did, then I could look back at some (maybe a lot) of those shít results from last season and think that it was all LVG's fault and 'We would have beaten PSV with X as manager'. As you said, we were gash last season and our current form is gash.

TheDoc · 19-09-2016 03:13PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Hasn't happened. In the summer Jose said he saw Rooney as a 9, 9-and-a-half or a 10. He played him at 10. Not in midfield.

Looked to me like he was forming part of a midfield 3 with Fellaini at the base. The entire first half he appeared way too deep. There was a noticeable change in his position for the first 20 mins of the second half, assumingly when Mourinho got his hands on him.

I know the commentary was indicating that also, but considering the general Bt commentary I shouldn't trust them for anything.

I missed the initial kick off by a few mins, but some tweets indicated they showed a 4-2-3-1, but some of the journos mentioned their sheets outlined a 4-3-3

bangkok · 19-09-2016 03:19PM

Pro. F wrote: »

It was four on four including Capou and Janmaat (who crossed it). As you say we were caught out (it just being after a set-piece and too many of the front six having broken forward) - given that, there was no reason that Fellaini should have been on Capoue any more than any of the other four defenders. Smalling had gone to try and stop the cross. Valencia was at the back trying to stop Deeney from scoring. Bailly and Fellaini were near the front post. Ighalo made a run off the pair of them that drew both of their eyes, and goal face still needed a defender in it.

Blaming Fell for that goal, instead of the overall defencesive organisation, is wrong.

There was no need for both Fellaini and Bailly to be near front post especially since smelling went out to the man. It was up to Fellaini to go out to Capone and not any of the defenders. He was the defensive midfielder marking nobody in the box

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

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