Dublin is one of the most dominant cities in the developed world

Harvey Normal · 10-09-2016 10:01PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Yes indeed, but its not a dominant City on the world stage.

I know, right?

Harvey Normal · 10-09-2016 10:05PM

jd wrote: »

There is a net transfer as it is from Dublin, Cork and a couple of cities to the rest of the country. It costs more to provide services in rural areas so we should not be incentivising it.
The root of the problem is that maybe two or three other cities should have been targeted for growth. This was what was suggested in the Buchanan Report 50 years or so ago. It was binned, not because the Dubs opposed it, but because of political opposition from areas not to be targeted. Dublin then grew to its current dominant extent by default.

That's exactly right. It's countrylocalism that keeps the country from having a second sizeable city.

Most people don't really get this thread though. It's not about more money for rural areas, but growing some other city to take the pressure of Dublin.

If irelands population grows to 6M or more and most of it comes here to Dublin, it won't be pleasant. Either we spend lots of money on a new city or we spend lots of money here.

alias no.9 · 10-09-2016 10:08PM

stacybeauchamp wrote: »

One possible solution is a tax equalisation strategy. We need to incentivize a more balanced population growth throughout the country. We could do this through taxation. the higher rate of tax country be increased to 60-65% in Dublin, as well as in other congested urban settings.

Those who live in more sparse areas pay 10-20 percent tax. This system could work because people would move and could still commute.

If the 'outside Dublin' population were more concentrated in large towns and cities instead of ribboned through the countryside, there might already be a counterbalance to Dublin.

We should be encouraging development that sees people able to live affordably close to employment centres. The notion that you'd give a tax incentive to move away from employment centres and commute is bizarre, commuting is congestion.

wakka12 · 10-09-2016 10:28PM

Harvey Normal wrote: »

That's exactly right. It's countrylocalism that keeps the country from having a second sizeable city.

Most people don't really get this thread though. It's not about more money for rural areas, but growing some other city to take the pressure of Dublin.

If irelands population grows to 6M or more and most of it comes here to Dublin, it won't be pleasant. Either we spend lots of money on a new city or we spend lots of money here.

I don't know how feasible the construction of a whole new city would be

MadYaker · 10-09-2016 10:48PM

Dublin is going to be a mess in 40 or 50 years if this trend continues. It's already a mess in terms of urban planning (ie there is none) public transport is a mess and it's impossible to find accommodation.

Harry Palmr · 10-09-2016 11:06PM

wakka12 wrote: »

I don't know how feasible the construction of a whole new city would be

Can you imagine the shenanigans as counties desperately try to get it and then the NIMBY's in whichever location is selected and then the planning inquiry/s and then the massive waste as tendering takes place and the snag list that takes decades to fix and then the inquiry when it floods every winter and runs out of water every summer?!

Moo Moo Land · 10-09-2016 11:08PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A good news story for change.

More people in Dublin = more taxpayers to subsidise our extravagant culchie lifestyles.

Yes indeed and lets charge them a fcuking fortune for our Shannon water!

Moo Moo Land · 10-09-2016 11:08PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Dublin is going to be a mess in 40 or 50 years if this trend continues.

It has been a mess for quite a while.

zetalambda · 11-09-2016 03:33PM

Del2005 wrote: »

A report by country people, using Dublin's money, saying that Dublin is getting too big, yeah right.

In reality Dublin is still too small to complete internationally and needs more investment to attract money and people. Dublin isn't completing for investment against Cork or Galway it's against London, LA, Berlin etc. By making Dublin less it doesn't mean that the jobs will go to Cork it means that Ireland looses jobs.

Huh? You mean when Apple, Amazon, EMC, IBM, McAfee, SolarWinds, Siemens, VMware, Cisco, Logitech and countless other technology companies decided to set up in Ireland, they never even considered Dublin and went straight to Cork? OK

Dublin never competes with London, Berlin or LA for anything let alone jobs although it may get some scraps from the plate following the recent Brexit. Dublin competes with the likes of Manchester and Amsterdam. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Dublin is up there with London, Los Angeles, New York and Paris!

ChikiChiki · 11-09-2016 03:49PM

Dublin lacks ambition. It will never reach its potential with some of the goons we have in power. Where are the high rise buildings, where are the good transport services and where is the affordable accommodation to keep a talented workforce in the country? It doesn't exist.

It's a shame because we have the potential to be akin to a Singapore of Europe but the ambition just isn't there hence we still have a brain drain.

It's a disaster for young people. You just don't get the same quality of life as in other global cities.

InTheTrees · 11-09-2016 04:03PM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Dublin lacks ambition. It will never reach its potential with some of the goons we have in power. Where are the high rise buildings, where are the good transport services and where is the affordable accommodation to keep a talented workforce in the country? It doesn't exist.

DUblin needs to start building up. Yes, its all very charming having the low buildings, i'm sure the tourists love it, but really its an extravagance that the city can not afford any more.

I wonder what the "density" of dublin is as regards people living per square km?

markpb · 11-09-2016 04:08PM

InTheTrees wrote:

DUblin needs to start building up. Yes, its all very charming having the low buildings, i'm sure the tourists love it, but really its an extravagance that the city can not afford any more.

There's no reason why we couldn't have both. London manages it quite well.

wakka12 · 11-09-2016 04:09PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

DUblin needs to start building up. Yes, its all very charming having the low buildings, i'm sure the tourists love it, but really its an extravagance that the city can not afford any more.

I wonder what the "density" of dublin is as regards people living per square km?

4,588/km2
Slightly less dense than Amsterdam at 4,900 per km squared.

Paris is the most dense city in europe with a density of 54,000 people per km squared

11-09-2016 04:28PM

I live in Dublin, and I love Dublin, but I agree there is too much focus on development in Dublin at the cost of development in the five smaller cities, or indeed large towns like Sligo and Carlow.

A population shift into smaller regional towns and cities seems like an excellent way of allowing many Irish people to live as we have always lived, in small, cohesive communities, and would act as a way of distributing residential-land pressures away from Dublin, and thereby help to stabilise house prices whilst providing a decent quality of life without long commutes.

One way this might be achieved may be to move the political infrastructure out of the capital (i.e. relocating the Dáil and Seanad to a regional town like Athlone or Galway), which would thereby burst the Dublin media bubble, and the media preoccupation with Dublin. It would also mitigate the close ties between commerce and politics, where business and other special-interest groups often have special access to bend the ear of a Minister through special access)

Decentralisation was one attempt to balance the civic infrastructure and population of the country, and it's a great pity that it was never seriously pursued.

RobertKK · 11-09-2016 04:30PM

Dublin could do with some tall skyscrapers.

Skyscrapers for large businesses, residential skyscrapers - not the sort Ballymun had, but something really nice in the centre of Dublin.

We can have a strong dominant Dublin and have it good for the country as a whole.

riadach · 11-09-2016 04:32PM

Isn't part of the issue that outside Dublin too many people prefer to live in isolated locations rather than taking up residence in a nearby town?

Bubbaclaus · 11-09-2016 04:34PM

I think having a large urban centre and everything else kept rural is a good thing for ireland. The west being a vast wild and rural place is part of Irelands charm and tourism draw.

ChikiChiki · 11-09-2016 04:36PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Dublin could do with some tall skyscrapers.

Skyscrapers for large businesses, residential skyscrapers - not the sort Ballymun had, but something really nice in the centre of Dublin.

We can have a strong dominant Dublin and have it good for the country as a whole.

Agree, a designated area could be set for the construction of skyscrapers out in the docklands in a type of new Dublin whilst the charm of the old city should still be retained in the current city centre. It would make for a really interesting city and moreso it's badly needed.

The urban sprawl is well into Kildare, Meath and Wicklow at this stage and trust me public transport is absolutely sh*t

11-09-2016 04:43PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Dublin could do with some tall skyscrapers.

Skyscrapers for large businesses, residential skyscrapers - not the sort Ballymun had, but something really nice in the centre of Dublin.

There's such a thing as vertical sprawl, too.

I don't think skyscrapers reflect the kind of community that most irish people want to be part of. As I type this, someone is probably putting down their International New York Times to choke on their gluten-free ciambelle, but I don't want to live in an Irish Paris, or an Irish Manhattan. I chose to live in Ireland because it is Ireland, and we are a different society, not some continental knock-off.

take a walk around Spencer Dock on a day like today. It's full of comfortable, middle class apartments, surrounded by plenty of cafés and restaurants (not many pubs) and it's also one of the most grim areas of Dublin. Any time I visit my friends in that area in the evenings, I feel like I'm walking around a deserted Manhattan, in some type of I-am-Legend movie. And that's not even very high rise. Imagine if those buildings were skyscrapers.

What I'm saying is, I don't think we have the cultural infrastructure and the enthusiasm to live in a skyscraper society. We shouldn't try to imitate other places all the time. We are intelligent people, capable of distributing our population wisely, and living within our own community traditions.

Dyr · 11-09-2016 04:50PM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

I think having a large urban centre and everything else kept rural is a good thing for ireland. The west being a vast wild and rural place is part of Irelands charm and tourism draw.

If there were less red faced spud gobblers running around the vast wildness of the wesht it would be even better for tourists

round em all up into towns say I

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I live in Dublin, and I love Dublin, but I agree there is too much focus on development in Dublin at the cost of development in the five smaller cities, or indeed large towns like Sligo and Carlow.

And lets face it the only way you're going to develop carlow is to round people up and build a wall around it

11-09-2016 04:52PM

I am suggesting we do incentivise the regional economy, for example, how about giving tax-breaks for those relocating to rural Ireland, or buying a first property in a special areas of investment (one of the regional cities), or tax rebates for companies establishing/relocating in those regions. This would distribute our population more sensibly, and strengthen rural Ireland. We already have the housing in many of those regions, especially in the midlands and north-west (Athlone, Sligo, Letterkenny)

It's getting to the point in Dublin where we need to build up or build out, and neither of those solutions are very attractive. The population of Dublin is probably as large as its central infrastructure can take, yet there seems to be no will to manage it.

RobertKK · 11-09-2016 04:58PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

There's such a thing as vertical sprawl, too.

I don't think skyscrapers reflect the kind of community that most irish people want to be part of. As I type this, someone is probably putting down their International New York Times to choke on their gluten-free ciambelle, but I don't want to live in an Irish Paris, or an Irish Manhattan. I chose to live in Ireland because it is Ireland, and we are a different society, not some continental knock-off.

take a walk around Spencer Dock on a day like today. It's full of comfortable, middle class apartments, surrounded by plenty of cafés and restaurants (not many pubs) and it's also one of the most grim areas of Dublin. Any time I visit my friends in that area in the evenings, I feel like I'm walking around a deserted Manhattan, in some type of I-am-Legend movie. And that's not even very high rise. Imagine if those buildings were skyscrapers.

What I'm saying is, I don't think we have the cultural infrastructure and the enthusiasm to live in a skyscraper society. We shouldn't try to imitate other places all the time. We are intelligent people, capable of distributing our population wisely, and living within our own community traditions.

I was in Dublin for a weekend back in July, and I was on my own. I use to slag off Dublin city, but it had been years since I walked around the city. I was open minded and wanted to give it a chance, I have to say Dublin looked great, it was a nice day, temperatures in the low to mid 20s.
I did walk from O'Connell bridge over to the 3Arena, as I only ever used the Luas before to get there before and wanted to see that area.
You are right, if I had been back in Kilkenny I would probably have seen more people as Spencer Dock was very quiet, even the traffic was very light.
One can argue that was good or bad.

I don't think stylish skyscrapers would harm Dublin if placed in the right location.

markpb · 11-09-2016 05:14PM

RobertKK wrote:

You are right, if I had been back in Kilkenny I would probably have seen more people as Spencer Dock was very quiet, even the traffic was very light. One can argue that was good or bad.

Spencer Dock may be close to the city centre but it's still primarily an office and residential area. Would you walk around suburban housing estates in Dublin and expect to see much sign of life? I'm parked on mine right now and it's dead as a funeral parlor, just like it is most of the time.

Comparing it to Grafton st or Ranelagh or any any other busy pedestrian traffic area is silly because it's not those places and not meant to be.

RobertKK · 11-09-2016 05:18PM

markpb wrote: »

Spencer Dock may be close to the city centre but it's still primarily an office and residential area. Would you walk around suburban housing estates in Dublin and expect to see much sign of life? I'm parked on mine right now and it's dead as a funeral parlor, just like it is most of the time.

Comparing it to Grafton st or Ranelagh or any any other busy pedestrian traffic area is silly because it's not those places and not meant to be.

That would be silly, I was responding to a post about Spencer Dock. I actually liked the diversity there was between there and the busier areas and all in walking distance.

KeyCode · 11-09-2016 05:18PM

And Cork generates more money per capita than the rest of the country (including Dublin).

There's a genuine argument for creating decent hubs to allow sustainable development. Dublin isn't actually coping infrastructurally. Clogged transport.

The usual Irish approach is actually to undermine the other cities by equating them to country villages - if Cork gets X Ballymcbendintheroad must get X too.

Cities are resources for their whole regions. They're not actually competing with rural areas.

We need to have an urbanism strategy and start to see cities as a good thing.

Ireland's got an overly nostalgic view of rural living that's resulted in ultra low density and totally unsustainable rural-ish development patterns - that's why so much of infrastructure here doesn't work : rural is one thing but scattering what should be town and citypopulations at random causes them to be very hard to connect to sewerage, water, broadband, public transport etc etc etc

11-09-2016 05:21PM

markpb wrote: »

Comparing it to Grafton st or Ranelagh or any any other busy pedestrian traffic area is silly because it's not those places and not meant to be.

But It's Dublin 1, not outer Lucan. I think you would expect to see more activity in a high-density area of the city centre. There's no community life there at all. Everybody lives in their own shoebox, there are no schools, sports clubs, community resources at all, almost no bars, and very little nightlife.

I find it strange that a place which is a short walk from O'Connell Street could be so godforsaken grim and isolated after 6pm. If that's our template for a an apartment-living society, the future is bleak.

XR3i · 11-09-2016 05:22PM

everyone from cork should move up to dublin and everyone from dublin should move down to cork

ps and everyone from galway should get free beer

Galwayguy35 · 11-09-2016 06:07PM

Bambi wrote: »

If there were less red faced spud gobblers running around the vast wildness of the wesht it would be even better for tourists

round em all up into towns say I

And lets face it the only way you're going to develop carlow is to round people up and build a wall around it

At least us red faced spud gobblers in the "wesht" know what a full stop is at the end of a sentence.

meeeeh · 11-09-2016 06:34PM

wakka12 wrote: »

4,588/km2
Slightly less dense than Amsterdam at 4,900 per km squared.

Paris is the most dense city in europe with a density of 54,000 people per km squared

Yeah but half of Amsterdam is water.

I think problem is a bit more complicated. Dublin is (or possibly was considering the current housing mess) great for multinationals but they are extremely mobile. Regional centres would need mix of some big corporate employers and homegrown businesses that is less likely to leave if they don't agree with the tax rate. For that you need a bit better planning, educational policies and so on. Just building and hoping some multinational will grace the area is a bit dumb. But more balanced development would beneficial and more secure in long term.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-09-2016 06:54PM

Remember that decentralisation where civil servants were bribed to move out of Dublin and how well that went ?

As for Scotland not having a big city the distance between Bray and Balbriggan is 67m, the same as between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Dublin is one of the most dominant cities in the developed world

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