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How do Pro Life campaigners want women who have abortions punished?

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Comments

  • #302
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Widdershins wrote: »
    PucaMama wrote: »
    I have never had a vote on abortion in Ireland and recently I found I'm not the most extreme either so I disagree

    So you're not against abortions happening in Ireland? You might not personally be preventing it but it seems that your wish is for it to continue to be farmed out to England. Is that incorrect?

    I would accept it happening here if it wasn't for just any reason. Like for the sex of the child, or it having a disability, or someone just not wanting a child. Those are not reasons for abortion those are reasons for adoption. For cases like very underage mothers, for rape, for a real risk towards the mothers life, for the cases where the child is already dead (having seen a woman pace the halls of a hospital having to carry her dead child to term) these are the times to say yes.


  • #303
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    Read back. I said I wouldn't be comfortable with anything beyond 10 or 12 weeks because that's when the process of becoming a person starts (I think the accepted average is 16 weeks but development rates vary and I have no desire to kill off anything close to a person.


  • #304
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,863 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    And we're Godwined. You are conflating two separate things.

    Morally, the woman's right to choose outweighs that of the fetus. A person doesn't become a citizen until they're born. The state doesn't issue birth certs or passports at the point of conception.


  • #305
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    PucaMama wrote: »
    I would accept it happening here if it wasn't for just any reason. Like for the sex of the child, or it having a disability, or someone just not wanting a child. Those are not reasons for abortion those are reasons for adoption. For cases like very underage mothers, for rape, for a real risk towards the mothers life, for the cases where the child is already dead (having seen a woman pace the halls of a hospital having to carry her dead child to term) these are the times to say yes.

    Then - believe it or not - you and I are VERY closely aligned, even though it would not have even remotely seemed that way earlier.


  • #306
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Tony Grumpy Mandible wrote: »
    PucaMama wrote: »
    Widdershins wrote: »
    PucaMama wrote: »
    The reasons behind it are what matters not the where. Aborting a child for having a disability is wrong in my opinion for example.

    But you can't stop it happening, all you are achieving is making a lot of people either break themselves to pay for it abroad or attempt it in some unsafe way at home.
    I'm not making anyone do anything. And break themselves? I've seen people pay more for dental treatment here.

    Having the eighth amendment creates the situation where those things happen though. And voting for the eighth amendment to remain is voting for at home and backstreet abortions, it's voting for the couples who choose to have FFA pregnancies aborted to keep having ashes delivered by courier. It's voting for teenagers and asylum seekers to keep making desperate, dangerous decisions. If I vote to maintain a ban on ambulances I don't get off the hook by saying I don't force anyone to break their legs and they should just not do that.
    But what are the consequences to voting to appeal? I havnt heard anything to assure me that it won't be to allow all abortion for whatever reason.


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  • #307
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Morally, the woman's right to choose outweighs that of the fetus.

    In your opinion


  • #308
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Decent Skin wrote: »
    PucaMama wrote: »
    I would accept it happening here if it wasn't for just any reason. Like for the sex of the child, or it having a disability, or someone just not wanting a child. Those are not reasons for abortion those are reasons for adoption. For cases like very underage mothers, for rape, for a real risk towards the mothers life, for the cases where the child is already dead (having seen a woman pace the halls of a hospital having to carry her dead child to term) these are the times to say yes.

    Then - believe it or not - you and I are VERY closely aligned, even though it would not have even remotely seemed that way earlier.

    I'm not the most unreasonable, I also supported the improved availability of the emergency contraception, but I do draw lines and I suppose I'm fairly set on those lines


  • #309
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    PucaMama wrote: »
    But what are the consequences to voting to appeal? I havnt heard anything to assure me that it won't be to allow all abortion for whatever reason.

    Not really any change until new law is passed. So it comes down to wether you trust the government to pass the law you hope for.


  • #310
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    In your opinion

    No it's pretty much fact.


  • #311
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    PucaMama wrote: »
    But what are the consequences to voting to appeal? I havnt heard anything to assure me that it won't be to allow all abortion for whatever reason.

    Not really any change until new law is passed. So it comes down to wether you trust the government to pass the law you hope for.
    It's a hard thing to trust them with


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  • #312
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    PucaMama wrote: »
    But what are the consequences to voting to appeal? I havnt heard anything to assure me that it won't be to allow all abortion for whatever reason.

    Given the reticence to even allow a vote, I would suspect that the chances of it being "unlimited" would be impossible to push through.

    I would even go so far as to say that your full list of scenarios in which to say yes wouldn't be catered for


  • #313
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,863 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Yes, a child needs care to survive, that isn't what is meant by viability
    As you know. It is a question of whether it is biologically capable of surviving.

    Pain is a response to external stimulus. Tumors would experience pain, should we force people to leave them to grow too?


  • #314
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Decent Skin wrote: »
    Given the choice I'd play safe and have it 0-10 or maybe 0-12 weeks

    So you're partly pro-life then?


  • #315
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Functioning human adult vs collection of cells.


  • #316
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Not really any change until new law is passed. So it comes down to wether you trust the government to pass the law you hope for.

    Wouldn't trust a government in a million years, but that won't stop me voting the way I believe is right.


  • #317
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    feargale wrote: »
    So you're partly pro-life then?

    If you like labels then yes. I don't know anyone who's "anti-life" though.


  • #318
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    One thing that irritates me is some people thing pro life people don't care what happens to them once they are born. Far from it for me. There needs to be a lot of work done here to improve the life of people with disabilities and other difficulties. And not to forget the huge lack of support for parents. My mother got us to Dublin for every appointment I needed as a child often by herself and we hadn't it near as bad as other families.


  • #319
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,863 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    One is a person, the other is developing fetus.


  • #320
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    PucaMama wrote: »
    There needs to be a lot of work done here to improve the life of people with disabilities and other difficulties. And not to forget the huge lack of support for parents. My mother got us to Dublin for every appointment I needed as a child often by herself and we hadn't it near as bad as other families.

    I think everyone, wherever their views lie on other issues, can agree on that one.


  • #321
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    Blue_Bear wrote: »
    A 26 week old fetus is more than a collection of cells.

    Why the fixation on 26 weeks ? Have you asked anyone else where their comfort zone ends and where they might start to align with your view ? It's the best way to discuss things, as PucaMama and myself found out.


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  • #322
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,863 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    A tumor would experience the same reactions to stimuli as any other collection of cells.


  • #323
    PucaMama
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Decent Skin wrote: »

    Why the fixation on 26 weeks ? Have you asked anyone else where their comfort zone ends and where they might start to align with your view ? It's the best way to discuss things, as PucaMama and myself found out.
    I know a couple with a child born earlier than 26 weeks and she's fine now.


  • #324
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,863 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Life is not person-hood.


  • #325
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Citizens have rights. A fetus is not a citizen.

    I must remember that the next time I see my two Nigerian non-citizen neighbours. I could do with a pair of slaves.


  • #326
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    Because the mother is a LIVING FUNCTIONING ADULT. A fetus is a collection of cells that may or may not reach full term or be born alive. What part of this are you failing to grasp?


  • #327
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    WHAT would the FETU..... (turns down volume - sorry folks) .... What would the foetus choose ?

    And show the little lad some respect by spelling him or her properly, will ya ? Not being all grammar nazi but apparently he can't speak for himself and it's up to us living adults to do so :P


  • #328
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Widdershins wrote: »
    How did you deduce that? I said nothing of the sort

    You said:
    wrote:
    all you are achieving is making a lot of people either break themselves to pay for it abroad or attempt it in some unsafe way at home.

    implying that women must get abortions, which is clearly not true.


  • #329
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,863 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    PucaMama wrote: »
    I know a couple with a child born earlier than 26 weeks and she's fine now.

    As was stated before, I don't know what the medical standard for fetal viability would be.

    The ability to survive independent of a mother that would not want it, seems a fairly obvious place to put the cut off point.


  • #330
    Decent Skin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭Decent Skin


    That 25 week old one is going to be really pissed off with you for excluding him.

    The 10 or 12 week old one should be grand though - no consciousness or feelings there yet.


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  • #331
    The Specialist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭The Specialist


    I think your overblown emotionalism is getting the better of your logical thinking.


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