Railway lines

savagethegoat · 30-08-2016 08:36AM

well that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion too. You've not backed yours up with facts either.

L1011 · 30-08-2016 09:21AM

Deedsie wrote: »

How is rural housing subsidised?

Provision of services at a much higher cost than for urban housing, and at a higher cost than is recovered. This is particularly acute for one-offs.

Anyone who decides to build a one-off should effectively give up their right to even minorly complain about broadband, buses, access to schools, the tiny surcharge on their electrical costs, etc.

cgcsb · 30-08-2016 10:01AM

511 wrote: »

This is pretty much the reason many rail line across the world have been closed down. Rail used to be the most efficient and fastest way to travel across the country, but ever since cars were introduced, the lines needed to be subsidized and weren't worth keeping open anymore. Maintaining a rail track is very expensive, so with less passengers using them, they had no choice but to close them down.

There was a thread on reddit/Europe a month ago were someone posted about Ireland's declining rail network and several people posted pictures of their declining networks. Ireland was definitely one of the worst, but the rest showed a slight decline and that's because of the motorcar even though the populations have naturally grown throughout Europe's countries.

If we want to see our rail network improved, we need to reduce our rural population because subsidizing rural housing is causing a lot of problems in this country as we can't afford them anymore, it's currently at around 35% - 40% of our population, which is much higher than most European countries. I think I read on here somewhere that only the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork lines turn over a profit, the rest are subsidized.

The west Cork railway was still very busy at the time of closure by all accounts. There aren't many railways in Europe that go unsubsidized. Even the super efficient Spanish high speed system get's a subsidy. This is because the value of an efficient rail system is greater than the ticket revenue. The UK failed to realise this and now has the most expensive train tickets in the world and the state is still subsidising the service.

cgcsb · 30-08-2016 10:06AM

savagethegoat wrote: »

the railways only survive by having the hidden subsidy of free travel for the elderly
.

Have you a source for this? I'm wondering because you don't see OAPS on the 06:15 Cork-Dublin train, mostly people in suits.

In fact you don't see many oldies on Cork-Dublin at any time. How do you estimate that travel pass holders are the bulk of the revenue?

cgcsb · 30-08-2016 10:11AM

savagethegoat wrote: »

I'd say roads are very profitable given that the tax take exceeds the cost

...Road tax does not exceed the cost of Ireland's roads by any stretch of the imagination. We have 1,000 km of motorway for 4.7 million people. That's 1km for every 4,700 people, or three times as much as UK per head and we are building yet more to Tuam, New Ross, Enniscorthy, Foynes, Ringaskiddy etc.

We also have 40% of our population living in rural areas interconnected by a gigantic network of tarmaced boreens and L roads. The maintenance bill, subsidising toll companies, mopping up Donegal people up off the road etc. costs far in

Musketeer4 · 30-08-2016 10:19AM

KC161 wrote: »

The Midleton to Youghal section of line in Cork could badly do with being reopened for passenger traffic but they seem more interested in making a greenway out of it.

Would you go on out of it! Sure Midleton re-opened a few years ago and hardly anyone uses it. We don't have the population density and at the end of the day it is infinitely more flexibe and convenient for people to use the car. I know people in Midleton and they never use the train.

L1011 · 30-08-2016 11:46AM

Deedsie wrote: »

Do all of these homes not pay property charges? Most of them pay for their own water unlike the rest of the toys flying out of the pram at the mere suggestion urban residents?

I do agree with you re broadband. If you choose to live in the back of beyond its not really feasible to provide broadband.

Why would their children be denied access to schools? That seems a bizarre gripe?

They pay less than it costs to provide services - that is the point.

They gripe about not having access to specific types of schools when they have deliberately isolated themselves to an unsustainable, unserviceable location. If they were provided the level of service they're actually paying for they'd probably have a postal delivery one a fortnight, gravel roads, no street lighting, etc, etc. The ongoing costs of one off housing are huge and borne by those of us who don't live in them.

dowlingm · 30-08-2016 02:11PM

In North America you don't see much of the Irish practice of leaving rails and sleepers rot in the ground on closed lines, because if they have rails the local authorities they pass by can levy property tax!

end of the road · 30-08-2016 02:36PM

L1011 wrote: »

Provision of services at a much higher cost than for urban housing, and at a higher cost than is recovered. This is particularly acute for one-offs.

Anyone who decides to build a one-off should effectively give up their right to even minorly complain about broadband, buses, access to schools, the tiny surcharge on their electrical costs, etc.

not at all they have every right to complain and should do so. the people building weren't the only ones in this, the councils who gave the permission are the other half of the equation.

Deedsie wrote: »

Do all of these homes not pay property charges? Most of them pay for their own water unlike the rest of the toys flying out of the pram at the mere suggestion urban residents?

I do agree with you re broadband. If you choose to live in the back of beyond its not really feasible to provide broadband.

Why would their children be denied access to schools? That seems a bizarre gripe?

broadband is absolutely vital in this day and age, they're should be a legal requirement for everyone to have access whether it to be wireless or cable. they're is no excuse for people in the most rural of areas not to be able to have access to wireless broadband. cable is a different story but wireless can be just as good.

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Would you go on out of it! Sure Midleton re-opened a few years ago and hardly anyone uses it. We don't have the population density and at the end of the day it is infinitely more flexibe and convenient for people to use the car. I know people in Midleton and they never use the train.

nonsense the Midleton line is very well used, all though i understand they're are some issues with fare evasion. it very much has the population density for rail and a toal should be put on the road to encourage more usage of the line. those who really need to use the road will pay.

dowlingm wrote: »

In North America you don't see much of the Irish practice of leaving rails and sleepers rot in the ground on closed lines, because if they have rails the local authorities they pass by can levy property tax!

i would have thought the opposite, and they were happily left to rot with the route being protected.
the whole thing in relation to ireland and britain around how certain lines were left but others not is an interesting thing to ponder tbh.

Musketeer4 · 30-08-2016 02:41PM

nonsense the Midleton line is very well used, all though i understand they're are some issues with fare evasion. it very much has the population density for rail and a toal should be put on the road to encourage more usage of the line. those who really need to use the road will pay.

lol. You are so disconnected from reality. Yeah the train goes from Midleton to Cork but you must realise that only a tiny minority of people would find that convenient. Unless you work in the city/town centres its a complete non runner. No-one has the time or appetite for the hassle of getting connected busses and all that.

In any case, there lots of votes in roads and very few votes in rail. For that reason, tarmac is king.

Musketeer4 · 30-08-2016 02:41PM

nonsense the Midleton line is very well used, all though i understand they're are some issues with fare evasion. it very much has the population density for rail and a toal should be put on the road to encourage more usage of the line. those who really need to use the road will pay.

lol. You are so disconnected from reality. Yeah the train goes from Midleton to Cork but you must realise that only a tiny minority of people would find that convenient. Unless you work in the city/town centres its a complete non runner. No-one has the time or appetite for the hassle of getting connected busses and all that.

In any case, there lots of votes in roads and very few votes in rail. For that reason, tarmac is king.

end of the road · 30-08-2016 02:59PM

Musketeer4 wrote: »

lol. You are so disconnected from reality.

i'm very connected with reality. except it and move on.

Musketeer4 wrote: »

In any case, there lots of votes in roads and very few votes in rail. For that reason, tarmac is king.

oh absolutely, and that's the problem. constant road building with no alternatives is not sustainible or cost effective either in the short or long term, and doing things for votes rather then they're being a need, means things that are needed or the infrastructure that needs improving don't get done. tarmac won't be king forever, we will either wake up or be forced to wake up to the reality that we need both tarmac and something else. it's a question of when, but it will happen, you heard it here first.

tabbey · 30-08-2016 09:19PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how many of Ireland's roads "make a profit" in reality either...

If you bothered to read the post, you would have seen that I said the roads don't make a profit.

whisky_galore · 01-09-2016 08:56PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Youghal could generate plenty of traffic as it stands and if proper development was carried out along the corridor it would be well worth reopening. It was short sightedly left off the original Cork Land Use and Transportation Study back in the 1970s which is why it did not feature in the Midleton reopening. Midleton's population is hardly enormous at about 12,000 and it has little potential for tourist/day tripper traffic in the way that Youghal does. Youghal needs the railway back whatever about the railway needing Youghal back.

Youghal is a faded, partly derelict shadow of its former self.

It has lost its Blue Flag status and Red Barn strand was a litter strewn mess when I saw it last. The only industry worth talking about, Youghal Carpets closed years ago. True it still attracts holiday makers, but not the masses of days of yore.

L1011 · 01-09-2016 10:05PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Youghal is a faded, partly derelict shadow of its former self.

It has lost its Blue Flag status and Red Barn strand was a litter strewn mess when I saw it last. The only industry worth talking about, Youghal Carpets closed years ago. True it still attracts holiday makers, but not the masses of days of yore.

There was also Seafield Technical Textiles, Arteysn (which was a modern high-tech industry) and Kodak - which was seen as high tech even though it was making CDRs. 2,500 manufacturing jobs gone from 01 to 09. Cinema is closed, department store closed, etc, etc.

Del.Monte · 01-09-2016 10:49PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Youghal could generate plenty of traffic as it stands and if proper development was carried out along the corridor it would be well worth reopening. It was short sightedly left off the original Cork Land Use and Transportation Study back in the 1970s which is why it did not feature in the Midleton reopening. Midleton's population is hardly enormous at about 12,000 and it has little potential for tourist/day tripper traffic in the way that Youghal does. Youghal needs the railway back whatever about the railway needing Youghal back.

I'm well aware that Youghal has gone downhill, but the return of the railway could be the making of the place as well as improving the passenger loadings over the Cobh Jn./Midleton section. What would I know though if as one poster here stated that nobody uses the Midleton train...

man98 · 02-09-2016 12:00PM

To be fair to Youghal traffic there is always a lot of people getting off the bus there, and I only see this at off peak services. If IÉ could take some of the existing bus traffic, take some of the commuters out of their cars and onto the train, factoring in the other villages along the way I feel the railway could see moderate success were it to return. That said, Youghal is a shadow of its former self. From passing through regularly, there's derelict factories; hotels; apartments; shops. Youghal needs something to improve its fortunes for the railway to do even better.

savagethegoat · 02-09-2016 01:46PM

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

end of the road · 02-09-2016 02:06PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

that is being done. slowly but surely.

cgcsb · 02-09-2016 02:45PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

Work is underway on the Hazelhatch-Portlaoise section. Presumably another section will be done further down the line next year.

whisky_galore · 02-09-2016 02:54PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm well aware that Youghal has gone downhill, but the return of the railway could be the making of the place as well as improving the passenger loadings over the Cobh Jn./Midleton section. What would I know though if as one poster here stated that nobody uses the Midleton train...

Kinsale, a similar down-at-heel coastal town, turned itself around without any railway. A railway being a panacea for all ills smacks of the monorail episode of the Simpsons.
Youghal has plenty of things other towns would kill for.

cgcsb · 02-09-2016 03:00PM

Kinsale would benefit from a rail connection taking in Cork airport mind. It'd be a commuter style service. The town is choked with traffic, arrangements should be made to eliminate cars from the centre.

man98 · 02-09-2016 03:04PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

I sincerely doubt that a rail line to Youghal would damage the profitability of the Cork - Waterford Expressway service. Indeed, urban buses from Cork via Midleton are also quite full in general, even with the line.

I'm talking about a Youghal line in a 'what if' narrative. I don't see anything happening in the next 20 years, if at all. In my ideal world, there would be enough investment to pursue projects like this and to make Cork - Dublin even more competitive with the motorways.

whisky_galore · 02-09-2016 03:06PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Kinsale would benefit from a rail connection taking in Cork airport mind. It'd be a commuter style service. The town is choked with traffic, arrangements should be made to eliminate cars from the centre.

Rail to Kinsale is about as likely as a snowball fight in Hell.

cgcsb · 02-09-2016 03:21PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Rail to Kinsale is about as likely as a snowball fight in Hell.

I'm aware of that, infrastructure spending in Ireland remains truley pathetic so we're unlikely to see anything other than applying chewing gum and duct tape to the existing lot. This is a thread about hypotheticals though not about likely scenarios.

end of the road · 02-09-2016 03:21PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Rail to Kinsale is about as likely as a snowball fight in Hell.

it's still a reasonable suggestion. just because it won't be delivered doesn't mean the suggestion in itself is flaud.

MGWR · 02-09-2016 04:00PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

What "profitability"? Anything the government owns and subsidises is not profitable.

Any state-owned bus line was set up to siphon people off the railways in the first place, while they degraded the quality of the trains. That was when both buses and trains were owned by the government, especially in a de jure sense.

savagethegoat wrote: »

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

What, an average speed of 73.5 mph (118 km/h) for the non-stops and 60 mph (96.7 km/h) for the direct Heuston-Kent trains with the most stops is not fast enough? That beats the motorway quite handily. What sort of "speeding up" is needed now (which, frankly, would benefit every intercity line)? Yes, it'd be nice to get up to the level achieved in the 1970s, when most trains did a top speed of 125 mph (hello HST, Voyager et al), but what average speed will that result in and will it attract more passengers ultimately?

Also, government does not "invest". It subsidises. Privately-owned companies and private individuals invest.

savagethegoat · 02-09-2016 04:44PM

MGWR wrote: »

What "profitability"? Anything the government owns and subsidises is not profitable.

Any state-owned bus line was set up to siphon people off the railways in the first place, while they degraded the quality of the trains. That was when both buses and trains were owned by the government, especially in a de jure sense.What, an average speed of 73.5 mph (118 km/h) for the non-stops and 60 mph (96.7 km/h) for the direct Heuston-Kent trains with the most stops is not fast enough? That beats the motorway quite handily. What sort of "speeding up" is needed now (which, frankly, would benefit every intercity line)? Yes, it'd be nice to get up to the level achieved in the 1970s, when most trains did a top speed of 125 mph (hello HST, Voyager et al), but what average speed will that result in and will it attract more passengers ultimately?

Also, government does not "invest". It subsidises. Privately-owned companies and private individuals invest.

It only beats the Motorway if someone happened to want to drive their car from the vicinity of the rail station to the ditto of another one. If you factor in the door to door travel, a 60 mph average is pants. No train in Ireland ever did 125 mph or averaged anything like the HST has done for the past 40 odd years.

savagethegoat · 02-09-2016 04:47PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Kinsale, a similar down-at-heel coastal town, turned itself around without any railway. A railway being a panacea for all ills smacks of the monorail episode of the Simpsons.
Youghal has plenty of things other towns would kill for.

I don't think Kinsale was ever down at heel. It's always been a popular spot for the hoi polloi! The rail line closed in the thirties I believe.

tabbey · 02-09-2016 09:24PM

savagethegoat wrote: »

I don't think Kinsale was ever down at heel. It's always been a popular spot for the hoi polloi! The rail line closed in the thirties I believe.

The line to Kinsale was a branch off the West Cork line, Cork to Kinsale by rail was about twice the road distance, taking several times what could be achieved by car off peak.
A direct route would involve gradients more severe than most railways would care for, or would need expensive tunnels and viaducts.
I cannot see it happening this century!

Railway lines

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