Railway lines

tallaghtfornia

With the exception of the Luas have not had any mainline railways built in Ireland in over 100 years only closures - only upgrading of the Victorian ones. Why is there no political will in the country to do this ? We invested heavily in the Celtic Tiger Years in Roads but no investment in new rail lines why do we do things like this in Ireland ? When there is huge potential for rail.

punisher5112

No potential they can't run what they have and sold off a lot of land and as you said closed lines down.

Freight was also dropped which was crazy but hey it's Ireland.

Sure the original tram lines should never have been stripped up either.

savagethegoat

where do you suggest building a line given that all the main centres are already linked.?

boardsuser1

The Midleton to Youghal section of line in Cork could badly do with being reopened for passenger traffic but they seem more interested in making a greenway out of it.

savagethegoat

KC161 wrote: »

The Midleton to Youghal section of line in Cork could badly do with being reopened for passenger traffic but they seem more interested in making a greenway out of it.

Why would you think it badly needs re-opening? There doesn't seem to be a lot of potential beyond Midleton to me, and Midleton is well placed as a park and ride facility for it's hinterland.

boardsuser1

savagethegoat wrote: »

Why would you think it badly needs re-opening? There doesn't seem to be a lot of potential beyond Midleton to me, and Midleton is well placed as a park and ride facility for it's hinterland.

Population growth of Mogeely,Killeagh and Youghal being the biggest reason.

David Stanton TD also wants/wanted it re-opened.

i am friends with an Irish Rail worker of over 40 years and even he said the line would be justified today.

Think of the smount of traffic it would take off the road.

15 years ago not too many people ever had hope of seeing a train in Midleton again.

Plus in the past irish rail have refused to allow anyone to reconstruct the line even for private use.

Alot has changed there since the last train in 1988.

savagethegoat

pop Mogeely 327

pop killeagh 527

I don't think they would rate a station were the line to re-open

Youghal is only around 7000 population which is hardly major.

boardsuser1

savagethegoat wrote: »

pop Mogeely 327

pop killeagh 527

I don't think they would rate a station were the line to re-open

Youghal is only around 7000 population which is hardly major.

Is that from the census?

Del.Monte

Youghal could generate plenty of traffic as it stands and if proper development was carried out along the corridor it would be well worth reopening. It was short sightedly left off the original Cork Land Use and Transportation Study back in the 1970s which is why it did not feature in the Midleton reopening. Midleton's population is hardly enormous at about 12,000 and it has little potential for tourist/day tripper traffic in the way that Youghal does. Youghal needs the railway back whatever about the railway needing Youghal back.

Itssoeasy

I know an ex irish rail driver and he said it was a horrible decision to close the line to youghal. It wouldn't be only youghal and the other stations that would benefit from having the train near them.

savagethegoat

KC161 wrote: »

Is that from the census?

google

savagethegoat

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I know an ex irish rail driver and he said it was a horrible decision to close the line to youghal. It wouldn't be only youghal and the other stations that would benefit from having the train near them.

I spoke to a bloke in the pub who said it was a no hoper.

L1011

savagethegoat wrote: »

google

Which is probably 2006 or 2011 census results. Killeagh 656, Mogeely 604 and Youghal Town 7101 in 2016. Not larger enough to justify stations really, though.

tabbey

tallaghtfornia wrote: »

With the exception of the Luas have not had any mainline railways built in Ireland in over 100 years only closures - only upgrading of the Victorian ones. Why is there no political will in the country to do this ? We invested heavily in the Celtic Tiger Years in Roads but no investment in new rail lines why do we do things like this in Ireland ? When there is huge potential for rail.

In the last fifty years or so, there were a number of minor new lines constructed, mostly related to industrial plants, for example drogheda cement factory (1938), Limerick cement factory (1957), Ballinacourty (1970-1982. There were a couple of direct curves, at Limerick Junction (1967) and Kilkenny avoiding line about fifteen years ago.
The two direct curves were built on the cheap, sharply curved,with slow speed limits. The Junction direct curve, if a little longer, but straighter, would allow 70mph running, with time saving by direct Dublin - Limerick trains. Similarly the one near Kilkenny could have been built a little further out with less severe curve, suitable for Waterford express passenger trains. At present the Dublin - Waterford time is so slow, that it has lost market share to road. Four or five trains stopping at Carlow only, would be a significant improvement. Instead the curve is used mostly for freight, trundling at 20 mph.

tabbey

KC161 wrote: »

The Midleton to Youghal section of line in Cork could badly do with being reopened for passenger traffic but they seem more interested in making a greenway out of it.

It would be nice to see trains return to Youghal, but it probably is not justified at present for a number of reasons;
The station is too far from most of the inhabitants of the town.
The Cork people who used to visit Youghal by train in the 1960s & 70s, now mostly have cars, and live farther from Glanmire Road, so the numbers of seaside day trippers would be much less if the line reopened.
The adjacent main road is less congested, given that N25 trunk traffic now bypasses Youghal.

Nevertheless, there is potential for future development justifying reopening at some stage. It is essential that the route be properly preserved for the future, not like the sham that was the Harcourt Street line.

When the time comes, it could be a very useful line, given the direct and almost straight route, facilitating fast running, providing it is not ruined like the WRC, with halts at every hamlet, delaying longer distance passengers.

Jamie2k9

The two direct curves were built on the cheap, sharply curved,with slow speed limits. The Junction direct curve, if a little longer, but straighter, would allow 70mph running, with time saving by direct Dublin - Limerick trains. Similarly the one near Kilkenny could have been built a little further out with less severe curve, suitable for Waterford express passenger trains. At present the Dublin - Waterford time is so slow, that it has lost market share to road. Four or five trains stopping at Carlow only, would be a significant improvement. Instead the curve is used mostly for freight, trundling at 20 mph.

TBH we don't know how much actual testing IE would of done with speeds particularly on the Limerick curve, the 25mph comes across as a default speed. It doesn't strike more a a priority that IE would have an I suppose it's fair enough.

I can't really remember but the 16.50 to Galway (express) used to take the up line into Portarlington and then cross to the Galway route but I really don't think it was as slow as 25mph back in Mark III days. The ICR's don't do sharp bends very well.

As for Lavistown, drivers actually been able to drive 25mph would be a start, they get two signal checks and they don't clear in advance for the train so the train is more less at the signal and stopped before the are cleared.

Losty Dublin

tabbey wrote: »

The two direct curves were built on the cheap, sharply curved,with slow speed limits. The Junction direct curve, if a little longer, but straighter, would allow 70mph running, with time saving by direct Dublin - Limerick trains. Similarly the one near Kilkenny could have been built a little further out with less severe curve, suitable for Waterford express passenger trains. At present the Dublin - Waterford time is so slow, that it has lost market share to road. Four or five trains stopping at Carlow only, would be a significant improvement. Instead the curve is used mostly for freight, trundling at 20 mph.

Limerick Junction curve was laid purely to eliminate the reversal and run around at the junction for direct trains. There was no gain in laying it any longer; trains approaching the junction had to slow down anyway. Also, an oft used long layover siding on the Limerick branch meant that it could be no longer than was it is.

Laviston Loop on the Kilkenny line was funded by Bell Ferries so it was their call as to how much was spent on it. There is a large farmhouse on the down side; doubtless this affected the location as well.

MrMorooka

savagethegoat wrote: »

where do you suggest building a line given that all the main centres are already linked.?

DART Underground. Airport spur maybe.

cgcsb

Good thread. DARTunderground is most likely to be Ireland's first new(i.e. not a renovated victorian) rail line since independence. I could think of several instances where a new line would be useful:

A new line between Navan road Parkway and Dunboyne stopping at Connolly Hospital, Blanch Centre and Abbotstown, electrified of course.

A new line from Drogheda, through the airport, under Ballymun, onto the PPT line at liffey junction and into Heuston(pl. 10). This would allow for direct Belfast-Dub Airport-Dub Heuston-Limrick Jnct-Cork services. Then the existing Connolly-Drogheda Line can be DART only, completely separating DART from intercities.

A new double tracker alongside the proposed M20 between Charleville and Patrickswell and a new line across Carey's road in Limerick to provide more direct access to Colbert.

The WRC between Ennis and Galway should have been built on a new modern alignment instead of the windy victorian detour via Athenry that was never going to deliver good journey times

With all the above you could have a decent Cork-Galway via Limerick service in about 2h30.

Also, if we're re-opening lines, surely the West Cork railway is a prime candidate. Cork's coastal towns are destroyed with traffic in the summer and all the buses seem to be wedged.

savagethegoat

MrMorooka wrote: »

DART Underground. Airport spur maybe.

and where else? Those have been on the stocks for years

end of the road

cgcsb wrote: »

surely the West Cork railway is a prime candidate. Cork's coastal towns are destroyed with traffic in the summer and all the buses seem to be wedged.

absolutely. it would be rather difficult to do though. you would need some way of getting the line to cork station, probably on a viaduct spanning the city or a tunnel (not cheep) . won't happen sadly.

savagethegoat

well if you are intent on discussing pie in the sky, I may as well add my twopennorth.

There is a viaduct planned to span the river valley outside Ballincollig to carry the North Ring . Now is the time to lobby for a rail line to be added to this to carry the line from West Cork clear of Cork City and a junction station on the main line in the vicinity of Kileens/Rathpeacon where there is a huge estate planned, connecting into Dublin trains and running down into Kent

roundymac

They'v been talking about that estate for the last 20 years. Best and only route was the one they had and they pulled it up as fast as they could. Whats left is now a greenway.

savagethegoat

the best and only route? Threading the streets of Cork? Buried under a major road? That really is pie in the sky

511

tabbey wrote: »

The Cork people who used to visit Youghal by train in the 1960s & 70s, now mostly have cars, and live farther from Glanmire Road, so the numbers of seaside day trippers would be much less if the line reopened.

This is pretty much the reason many rail line across the world have been closed down. Rail used to be the most efficient and fastest way to travel across the country, but ever since cars were introduced, the lines needed to be subsidized and weren't worth keeping open anymore. Maintaining a rail track is very expensive, so with less passengers using them, they had no choice but to close them down.

There was a thread on reddit/Europe a month ago were someone posted about Ireland's declining rail network and several people posted pictures of their declining networks. Ireland was definitely one of the worst, but the rest showed a slight decline and that's because of the motorcar even though the populations have naturally grown throughout Europe's countries.

If we want to see our rail network improved, we need to reduce our rural population because subsidizing rural housing is causing a lot of problems in this country as we can't afford them anymore, it's currently at around 35% - 40% of our population, which is much higher than most European countries. I think I read on here somewhere that only the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork lines turn over a profit, the rest are subsidized.

tabbey

511 wrote: »

only the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork lines turn over a profit, the rest are subsidized.

No railway line in Ireland makes a profit. They are all subsidised.

Some lines may make a small operating profit, but they do not cover capital costs.

If we want railways, we need to pay for them. Nobody expects roads to make a profit, especially when we add in the cost of policing and those of the health services after accidents.

end of the road

511 wrote: »

This is pretty much the reason many rail line across the world have been closed down. Rail used to be the most efficient and fastest way to travel across the country, but ever since cars were introduced, the lines needed to be subsidized and weren't worth keeping open anymore.

well actually, it was about trying to get the railway to turn a proffit. a couple of lines closed in this country were certainly worth keeping open but were shut and ripped up with haste and the land sold off to insure they couldn't reopen and send a message to their objectors that CIE will do as they please. but what's done is done.

511 wrote: »

Maintaining a rail track is very expensive

actually it's not. it looks expensive because the money to it can't be well hidden like it can with roads. it also can't be shared by multiple types of single vehicle, so therefore it doesn't have access to the amount of income a road would be able to bring in.

511 wrote: »

with less passengers using them, they had no choice but to close them down.

well actually they did have a choice but they chose to close them. that was perfectly fine for most that were shut, but they're were a couple of routes which could have had a future and yet they chose to ripp them up and dispose of the land to insure they couldn't reopen to send a message to those who objected to their closure and who saw they would actually be needed that CIE didn't want them whatever the cost later on.

511 wrote: »

If we want to see our rail network improved, we need to reduce our rural population

if we want our network to survive we must invest in it, see it as a public asset, and make it attractive to users. the vast vast majority of the network is not "rural" . you aren't going to get a workable railway by doing it on the cheep, it's the same for any public service.

511 wrote: »

I think I read on here somewhere that only the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork lines turn over a profit, the rest are subsidized.

and that is likely how it is going to remain. they're will be no proffitable railway. not going to happen. public services rarely if ever make a proffit. it would be good if they did but they usually don't.

savagethegoat

the railways only survive by having the hidden subsidy of free travel for the elderly

Persuade people with time on their hands to travel just because it's free (most wouldn't if they had to pay) and pay a grant to the railways to cover the cost of that free travel.

it's a masterstroke.

Cookie_Monster

tabbey wrote: »

No railway line in Ireland makes a profit. They are all subsidised.

Some lines may make a small operating profit, but they do not cover capital costs.

how many of Ireland's roads "make a profit" in reality either...

savagethegoat

I'd say roads are very profitable given that the tax take exceeds the cost

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

I'd say roads are very profitable given that the tax take exceeds the cost

That's the trouble with many of your posts here 'I'd say' rather than any facts. What about if you take into account the hidden costs of roads - cost of oil imports, environmental pollution (greenhouse gas emissions - it's not just farting cows no matter how certain groups spin it), cost of accidents, cost of repairs......'I'd say that roads are far from profitable.

savagethegoat

well that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion too. You've not backed yours up with facts either.

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

How is rural housing subsidised?

Provision of services at a much higher cost than for urban housing, and at a higher cost than is recovered. This is particularly acute for one-offs.

Anyone who decides to build a one-off should effectively give up their right to even minorly complain about broadband, buses, access to schools, the tiny surcharge on their electrical costs, etc.

cgcsb

511 wrote: »

This is pretty much the reason many rail line across the world have been closed down. Rail used to be the most efficient and fastest way to travel across the country, but ever since cars were introduced, the lines needed to be subsidized and weren't worth keeping open anymore. Maintaining a rail track is very expensive, so with less passengers using them, they had no choice but to close them down.

There was a thread on reddit/Europe a month ago were someone posted about Ireland's declining rail network and several people posted pictures of their declining networks. Ireland was definitely one of the worst, but the rest showed a slight decline and that's because of the motorcar even though the populations have naturally grown throughout Europe's countries.

If we want to see our rail network improved, we need to reduce our rural population because subsidizing rural housing is causing a lot of problems in this country as we can't afford them anymore, it's currently at around 35% - 40% of our population, which is much higher than most European countries. I think I read on here somewhere that only the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork lines turn over a profit, the rest are subsidized.

The west Cork railway was still very busy at the time of closure by all accounts. There aren't many railways in Europe that go unsubsidized. Even the super efficient Spanish high speed system get's a subsidy. This is because the value of an efficient rail system is greater than the ticket revenue. The UK failed to realise this and now has the most expensive train tickets in the world and the state is still subsidising the service.

cgcsb

savagethegoat wrote: »

the railways only survive by having the hidden subsidy of free travel for the elderly
.

Have you a source for this? I'm wondering because you don't see OAPS on the 06:15 Cork-Dublin train, mostly people in suits.

In fact you don't see many oldies on Cork-Dublin at any time. How do you estimate that travel pass holders are the bulk of the revenue?

cgcsb

savagethegoat wrote: »

I'd say roads are very profitable given that the tax take exceeds the cost

...Road tax does not exceed the cost of Ireland's roads by any stretch of the imagination. We have 1,000 km of motorway for 4.7 million people. That's 1km for every 4,700 people, or three times as much as UK per head and we are building yet more to Tuam, New Ross, Enniscorthy, Foynes, Ringaskiddy etc.

We also have 40% of our population living in rural areas interconnected by a gigantic network of tarmaced boreens and L roads. The maintenance bill, subsidising toll companies, mopping up Donegal people up off the road etc. costs far in

Musketeer4

KC161 wrote: »

The Midleton to Youghal section of line in Cork could badly do with being reopened for passenger traffic but they seem more interested in making a greenway out of it.

Would you go on out of it! Sure Midleton re-opened a few years ago and hardly anyone uses it. We don't have the population density and at the end of the day it is infinitely more flexibe and convenient for people to use the car. I know people in Midleton and they never use the train.

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

Do all of these homes not pay property charges? Most of them pay for their own water unlike the rest of the toys flying out of the pram at the mere suggestion urban residents?

I do agree with you re broadband. If you choose to live in the back of beyond its not really feasible to provide broadband.

Why would their children be denied access to schools? That seems a bizarre gripe?

They pay less than it costs to provide services - that is the point.

They gripe about not having access to specific types of schools when they have deliberately isolated themselves to an unsustainable, unserviceable location. If they were provided the level of service they're actually paying for they'd probably have a postal delivery one a fortnight, gravel roads, no street lighting, etc, etc. The ongoing costs of one off housing are huge and borne by those of us who don't live in them.

dowlingm

In North America you don't see much of the Irish practice of leaving rails and sleepers rot in the ground on closed lines, because if they have rails the local authorities they pass by can levy property tax!

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Provision of services at a much higher cost than for urban housing, and at a higher cost than is recovered. This is particularly acute for one-offs.

Anyone who decides to build a one-off should effectively give up their right to even minorly complain about broadband, buses, access to schools, the tiny surcharge on their electrical costs, etc.

not at all they have every right to complain and should do so. the people building weren't the only ones in this, the councils who gave the permission are the other half of the equation.

Deedsie wrote: »

Do all of these homes not pay property charges? Most of them pay for their own water unlike the rest of the toys flying out of the pram at the mere suggestion urban residents?

I do agree with you re broadband. If you choose to live in the back of beyond its not really feasible to provide broadband.

Why would their children be denied access to schools? That seems a bizarre gripe?

broadband is absolutely vital in this day and age, they're should be a legal requirement for everyone to have access whether it to be wireless or cable. they're is no excuse for people in the most rural of areas not to be able to have access to wireless broadband. cable is a different story but wireless can be just as good.

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Would you go on out of it! Sure Midleton re-opened a few years ago and hardly anyone uses it. We don't have the population density and at the end of the day it is infinitely more flexibe and convenient for people to use the car. I know people in Midleton and they never use the train.

nonsense the Midleton line is very well used, all though i understand they're are some issues with fare evasion. it very much has the population density for rail and a toal should be put on the road to encourage more usage of the line. those who really need to use the road will pay.

dowlingm wrote: »

In North America you don't see much of the Irish practice of leaving rails and sleepers rot in the ground on closed lines, because if they have rails the local authorities they pass by can levy property tax!

i would have thought the opposite, and they were happily left to rot with the route being protected.
the whole thing in relation to ireland and britain around how certain lines were left but others not is an interesting thing to ponder tbh.

Musketeer4

nonsense the Midleton line is very well used, all though i understand they're are some issues with fare evasion. it very much has the population density for rail and a toal should be put on the road to encourage more usage of the line. those who really need to use the road will pay.

lol. You are so disconnected from reality. Yeah the train goes from Midleton to Cork but you must realise that only a tiny minority of people would find that convenient. Unless you work in the city/town centres its a complete non runner. No-one has the time or appetite for the hassle of getting connected busses and all that.

In any case, there lots of votes in roads and very few votes in rail. For that reason, tarmac is king.

Musketeer4

nonsense the Midleton line is very well used, all though i understand they're are some issues with fare evasion. it very much has the population density for rail and a toal should be put on the road to encourage more usage of the line. those who really need to use the road will pay.

lol. You are so disconnected from reality. Yeah the train goes from Midleton to Cork but you must realise that only a tiny minority of people would find that convenient. Unless you work in the city/town centres its a complete non runner. No-one has the time or appetite for the hassle of getting connected busses and all that.

In any case, there lots of votes in roads and very few votes in rail. For that reason, tarmac is king.

end of the road

Musketeer4 wrote: »

lol. You are so disconnected from reality.

i'm very connected with reality. except it and move on.

Musketeer4 wrote: »

In any case, there lots of votes in roads and very few votes in rail. For that reason, tarmac is king.

oh absolutely, and that's the problem. constant road building with no alternatives is not sustainible or cost effective either in the short or long term, and doing things for votes rather then they're being a need, means things that are needed or the infrastructure that needs improving don't get done. tarmac won't be king forever, we will either wake up or be forced to wake up to the reality that we need both tarmac and something else. it's a question of when, but it will happen, you heard it here first.

tabbey

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how many of Ireland's roads "make a profit" in reality either...

If you bothered to read the post, you would have seen that I said the roads don't make a profit.

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

Youghal could generate plenty of traffic as it stands and if proper development was carried out along the corridor it would be well worth reopening. It was short sightedly left off the original Cork Land Use and Transportation Study back in the 1970s which is why it did not feature in the Midleton reopening. Midleton's population is hardly enormous at about 12,000 and it has little potential for tourist/day tripper traffic in the way that Youghal does. Youghal needs the railway back whatever about the railway needing Youghal back.

Youghal is a faded, partly derelict shadow of its former self.

It has lost its Blue Flag status and Red Barn strand was a litter strewn mess when I saw it last. The only industry worth talking about, Youghal Carpets closed years ago. True it still attracts holiday makers, but not the masses of days of yore.

L1011

whisky_galore wrote: »

Youghal is a faded, partly derelict shadow of its former self.

It has lost its Blue Flag status and Red Barn strand was a litter strewn mess when I saw it last. The only industry worth talking about, Youghal Carpets closed years ago. True it still attracts holiday makers, but not the masses of days of yore.

There was also Seafield Technical Textiles, Arteysn (which was a modern high-tech industry) and Kodak - which was seen as high tech even though it was making CDRs. 2,500 manufacturing jobs gone from 01 to 09. Cinema is closed, department store closed, etc, etc.

Del.Monte

Del.Monte wrote: »

Youghal could generate plenty of traffic as it stands and if proper development was carried out along the corridor it would be well worth reopening. It was short sightedly left off the original Cork Land Use and Transportation Study back in the 1970s which is why it did not feature in the Midleton reopening. Midleton's population is hardly enormous at about 12,000 and it has little potential for tourist/day tripper traffic in the way that Youghal does. Youghal needs the railway back whatever about the railway needing Youghal back.

I'm well aware that Youghal has gone downhill, but the return of the railway could be the making of the place as well as improving the passenger loadings over the Cobh Jn./Midleton section. What would I know though if as one poster here stated that nobody uses the Midleton train...

man98

To be fair to Youghal traffic there is always a lot of people getting off the bus there, and I only see this at off peak services. If IÉ could take some of the existing bus traffic, take some of the commuters out of their cars and onto the train, factoring in the other villages along the way I feel the railway could see moderate success were it to return. That said, Youghal is a shadow of its former self. From passing through regularly, there's derelict factories; hotels; apartments; shops. Youghal needs something to improve its fortunes for the railway to do even better.

savagethegoat

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

end of the road

savagethegoat wrote: »

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

that is being done. slowly but surely.

cgcsb

savagethegoat wrote: »

so you'd have a train service that was marginal and a bus service that had lost any profitability it might have?

If there is any investment money to be had, it should be channelled into areas where it might make a difference...speeding up the Cork to Dublin line for instance that has been promised so many times.

Work is underway on the Hazelhatch-Portlaoise section. Presumably another section will be done further down the line next year.