Argument for gender neutral clothes is wearing thin

_Kaiser_ · 30-08-2016 04:03PM

Grayson wrote: »

It's not really. He has a little kid who is normal. I don't mean normal in a bad way or anything I just mean that if you took a photo of the kid, except for clothes etc he would look like a kid that went to school here 20, 30, or even 60 years ago. Pretty much me when I was a kid. Probably you too.

The poster said that the kid would be told to embrace and advocate diversity and that would be wrong. So lets look at what would be "right" then. If embracing diversity is wrong then it must be ok to be against it.

The fact is that, especially in schools, we should be embracing diversity. Kids should not be told that they are better than another kid. They shouldn't be told that another kid is strange or not normal. Kids should be allowed to be whoever they are without the judgement of their peers.

The bolded part above highlights exactly what I referred to previously - this ridiculous fear and overcompensation for the notion that someone might be possibly offended by the most innocent of statements such as the one you made there.

I've a very simple approach to this stuff.. believe whatever you want so long as it doesn't adversely impact me. Equally recognize that not everyone will feel the same way you do and there's nothing wrong with that either - learning how to deal with different opinions, conflict and setbacks in a constructive way are key life skills that this "everyone is special" nonsense would do away with - hence reports now coming out from employers about new entrants with wholly unrealistic expectations of the world outside school and college.

My son is a normal boy (and I for one won't be apologising for that) and is respectful of others and his parents/family. Your idea that no-one he meets in school will be "different" (from the established norm) is not grounded in reality - and yet it's also not a problem so long as he respects their right to that "difference". Schools are filled with different groups - the cool kids, the nerds, the goths - and so what? I certainly don't recall any riots between the different groups when I was in school so I don't foresee an issue now.

And therein lies the problem.. Where you (and indeed others) seem to have an issue is the idea that recognizing but not advocating for "differences" = being against them and that just is not the case - live and let live is wholly appropriate here - but more than that, you seek to impose your "solution" on a problem that doesn't even necessarily exist.

Thankfully however his parents are a bit more "old school" than that and I will be encouraging him to make his own mind up about everything according to HIS values and beliefs - not whatever the latest social media "crusade" has decided he should believe.

_Kaiser_ · 30-08-2016 04:16PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

As this insidious social engineering gains momentum I have no doubt the end product is going to be dysfunctional and depressed adults. Leave children be children, this gender bending rubbish would never cross their minds if it wasn't forced into their consciousness by fanatical social engineers.

Spot on.

We have an entire generation that has spent so much time navel-gazing and coming up with solutions for problems that don't even exist, that many of them are now incapable of dealing with the realities and setbacks of life beyond social media.

Now that they've convinced their peers and marginalised many of their elders (thanks to the echo chamber effect of Twitter/Facebook and bored 24x7 news outlets repeating this stuff as if it was gospel/mainstream), it seems the new target are kids who haven't the ability to critically judge what they're being told.

Ireland is of course a prime target for this given our instinctive "need" to be liked and validated anyway and our ready absorption of US (and to a lesser extent UK) culture and media since the age of satellite TV and the Web.

Fuzzytrooper · 30-08-2016 04:34PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

The especially young boy who identifies as Camille in Theroux's documentary rocking out to a pop song with extremely suggestive sexual moves gave me a strong impression of a child who had been influenced by the hyper-sexual world that is now ubiquitous in children's lives. I think this is an issue that should be addressed.

As a father this worries me greatly. I don't think young children should be exposed half as much to sexual content as they are now.

Grayson · 30-08-2016 04:42PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

The bolded part above highlights exactly what I referred to previously - this ridiculous fear and overcompensation for the notion that someone might be possibly offended by the most innocent of statements such as the one you made there.

I've a very simple approach to this stuff.. believe whatever you want so long as it doesn't adversely impact me. Equally recognize that not everyone will feel the same way you do and there's nothing wrong with that either - learning how to deal with different opinions, conflict and setbacks in a constructive way are key life skills that this "everyone is special" nonsense would do away with - hence reports now coming out from employers about new entrants with wholly unrealistic expectations of the world outside school and college.

My son is a normal boy (and I for one won't be apologising for that) and is respectful of others and his parents/family. Your idea that no-one he meets in school will be "different" (from the established norm) is not grounded in reality - and yet it's also not a problem so long as he respects their right to that "difference". Schools are filled with different groups - the cool kids, the nerds, the goths - and so what? I certainly don't recall any riots between the different groups when I was in school so I don't foresee an issue now.

And therein lies the problem.. Where you (and indeed others) seem to have an issue is the idea that recognizing but not advocating for "differences" = being against them and that just is not the case - live and let live is wholly appropriate here - but more than that, you seek to impose your "solution" on a problem that doesn't even necessarily exist.

Thankfully however his parents are a bit more "old school" than that and I will be encouraging him to make his own mind up about everything according to HIS values and beliefs - not whatever the latest social media "crusade" has decided he should believe.

The bolded bit is the bit I'm focusing on because it's the crux of your argument.

Firstly, there might not be wars, but there is bullying. If you don't remember it then either you were the bully or you were lucky.
Secondly you're talking about choices. People choose to be interested in nerdy things. They don't choose to be trans. Just like they don't choose to be male or female, black or white or what ethnic or religious group they're born into.

We should teach kids to accept others and accept diversity. It's fair enough if your 5 (at that point) year old comes home and says "I don't like billy because he thinks that turtles are better than transformers". It's not right if he says "I don't like billy because he's black/jewish/trans or whatever".
You don't teach a kid that they have to love everyone no matter what. You just teach them that it's wrong to reject a person over something that person has no control over. You say it's his values but your his parent, at that age you give him his values. You tell him what's right and wrong and teach him how to figure it out.

It's not some new SJW crusade to say that we should teach kids to be tolerant of others and try to accept them for who they are. It's just basic human decency.

mdwexford · 30-08-2016 04:47PM

2RockMountain wrote: »

Watch the documentary and you'll get it. I guess the kids picked it up from the world they live in, seeing parents, siblings and other people of different genders. They didn't live in a hermetically sealed container. And I'm not sure that any of them were the result of some kind of psychological test with 'gender neutral' everything. They're just ordinary kids in ordinary families, who managed to work out that their gender doesn't match their bodies.

Yeah, of course they did.

What a load of rubbish.

Special Circumstances · 30-08-2016 05:53PM

Grayson wrote: »

They don't choose to be trans. Just like they don't choose to be male or female, black or white or what ethnic or religious group they're born into.

You're on thin ice!! Suggesting that one can choose to be a different race, or be born into a race you don't feel you belong to, is COMPLETELY verboten on boards.ie

Transgender is grand though. Fire away there. Transracial = NEIN!

To even point out that there may be a logical inconsistency here is tempting fate.

Ooooops!

Grayson · 30-08-2016 06:39PM

Special Circumstances wrote: »

You're on thin ice!! Suggesting that one can choose to be a different race, or be born into a race you don't feel you belong to, is COMPLETELY verboten on boards.ie

Transgender is grand though. Fire away there. Transracial = NEIN!

To even point out that there may be a logical inconsistency here is tempting fate.

Ooooops!

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Nobody can chose the family they are born into. No-one chooses the colour of their skin (well, except for a few who choose orange). No-one chooses their sexuality or their gender.
Children have even less choice. An adult can choose a religion but children belong to the religion of their parents.

Special Circumstances · 30-08-2016 07:46PM

Grayson wrote: »

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Nobody can chose the family they are born into. No-one chooses the colour of their skin (well, except for a few who choose orange). No-one chooses their sexuality or their gender.
Children have even less choice. An adult can choose a religion but children belong to the religion of their parents.

Grand grand you're on message so! Just the way you juxtaposed sex/gender/race there I thought you were gonna get yourself in bother.

You ain't never seen a modstorm like when somebody equates transracial with transABC!

Jimmy Garlic · 30-08-2016 08:36PM

Guys, we really need big cots, playpens and nappy changing areas in the the workplace. Think of all the adults who identify as babies who are being discriminated against! Time to raise awareness about this issue.

2RockMountain · 30-08-2016 08:55PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Guys, we really need big cots, playpens and nappy changing areas in the the workplace. Think of all the adults who identify as babies who are being discriminated against! Time to raise awareness about this issue.

Do you really need to make up stuff to try to bolster your position in the argument?

Argument for gender neutral clothes is wearing thin

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