Argument for gender neutral clothes is wearing thin

Calahonda52

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/argument-for-gender-neutral-clothes-is-wearing-thin-418009.html

INTO head, Peter Mullan, has asked that primary schools adopt uni-sex or non-gendered uniforms, along with non-gendered toilets, so that transgender children are protected.

Have we lost the plot completely here: so if there is an emergency in the head with a child, will it need three teachers, one male and one female and one spare or will they be gender neutral as well.
eg:
Norway man rescued after climbing into public toilet
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37196629

Mullen would be better off getting his lot to teach basic maths in National school so as we don't have remedial classes in first year in both secondary school and Uni.
It just does not add up.

RobertKK

When I was going to school, there were no gender neutral children to discriminate.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I don't like how this is being pushed on children, putting a child through gender realignment treatment is tantamount to child abuse imo. How can a kid whose mind is not fully developed consent to this?

Parents need to allow their children to mature into adulthood and make their own decision on the matter if the feelings are still present.

Junkyard Tom

Can you summarise the issue here?

biko

Kilts for everyone!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I don't understand why boys and girls have to wear different uniforms at school anyway. Especially when girls have to wear skirts down to their ankles, it's like something out of the nineteenth century.

Grayson

RobertKK wrote: »

When I was going to school, there were no gender neutral children to discriminate.

When I was in school there were no gay kids either............ because they would have gotten a kicking.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I don't like how this is being pushed on children, putting a child through gender realignment treatment is tantamount to child abuse imo. How can a kid whose mind is not fully developed consent to this?

Parents need to allow their children to mature into adulthood and make their own decision on the matter if the feelings are still present.

At the same time if there is a child with a gender issue, and the best path is to start early on gender realignment, it could be considered abuse to ignore it.

Honestly, I know very little about these things. All I know is that for a child to start these procedures they have to go through a load of assessments because as you said , to give it to a child (who doesn't need it) would be abuse.

ceadaoin.

Grayson wrote: »

When I was in school there were no gay kids either............ because they would have gotten a kicking.



At the same time if there is a child with a gender issue, and the best path is to start early on gender realignment, it could be considered abuse to ignore it.

Honestly, I know very little about these things. All I know is that for a child to start these procedures they have to go through a load of assessments because as you said , to give it to a child (who doesn't need it) would be abuse.

As far as I know, kids aren't given hormones but puberty blockers. These will leave them sterile if they never go through puberty. Once they have been started down that path it's virtually impossible to back out. Given that studies have shown that 60-90% of 'trans' kids do not identify as trans as adults, I predict a lot of messed up people as a result of this current trend.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

This absolutely should not be pushed on children.
I don't really care if someone identifies with being a transgender person, but if other kids are not comfortable sharing unisex bathrooms then this should not be pushed on them for fear of offending a tiny minority. Transgender feelings are not the only feelings that need to be catered for

RobertKK

Grayson wrote: »

When I was in school there were no gay kids either............ because they would have gotten a kicking.

In primary school didn't even know what gay was. I remember in secondary school, there was this new student and some of the ones who were bullies started calling him gay. I remember feeling sorry for how he was being treated, it didn't matter to me what he was or wasn't, he wasn't gay for the record but you are right, it would have made a person a target.

_Kaiser_

LexieOnRale wrote: »

This absolutely should not be pushed on children.
I don't really care if someone identifies with being a transgender person, but if other kids are not comfortable sharing unisex bathrooms then this should not be pushed on them for fear of offending a tiny minority. Transgender feelings are not the only feelings that need to be catered for

I'd have to agree with this... the current trend of facilitating every minority's "needs" regardless of the impact to the majority is getting out of hand. It used to be confined to the likes of Twitter and Facebook and US College Campuses, but now we have a guy who really SHOULD know better.

Kids have enough to be dealing with in school and puberty without having to also be pushed into uncomfortable situations to accommodate something that may or may not even be an issue in that school.

My opinion personally is that this whole topic shouldn't even be an issue until someone matures into adulthood. At that point they can do whatever they want, identify however they want - but until then who they "are" changes regularly anyway.

No doubt I'll be told I'm wrong by our resident experts on the subject but to me this is yet another example of those rushing to show how "enlightened" they are by pushing their agenda on everyone else - even those who at that age will have no concept of what they're on about!

Shenshen

LexieOnRale wrote: »

This absolutely should not be pushed on children.
I don't really care if someone identifies with being a transgender person, but if other kids are not comfortable sharing unisex bathrooms then this should not be pushed on them for fear of offending a tiny minority. Transgender feelings are not the only feelings that need to be catered for

Why would they feel uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with someone of the other sex? Surely they don't have a loo for mommy and a separate one for dad at home?

I suspect, personally, that most primary school kids couldn't give a flying toot who they go to the loo with. The people uncomfortable about this are most likely adults.

rainbow kirby

Tracksuit, t-shirt, runners. Bought in a supermarket. Probably all a primary uniform needs to consist of anyway regardless of gender.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would they feel uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with someone of the other sex? Surely they don't have a loo for mommy and a separate one for dad at home?

I suspect, personally, that most primary school kids couldn't give a flying toot who they go to the loo with. The people uncomfortable about this are most likely adults.

Secondary school?
I hit puberty in primary school too, starting my period at 11 and becoming aware of what was going on in regards to different bodies

Fleawuss

Lots of stuff pushed at kids in national school that doesn't make sense. You can't bite Mary Anne in the playground but you can buy a nice dress and eat Jesus in first communion.

But but but......

Maybe we should get rid of all the guff out of school and concentrate on teaching reality.

Shenshen

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Secondary school?
I hit puberty in primary school too, starting my period at 11 and becoming aware of what was going on in regards to different bodies

So did I, and I still had to share the bathroom with my two younger (and, frankly, remarkably cruel) brothers.

Olishi4

Other than the reference to the Burkini and male swimwear having to change, making the uniform gender neutral is just not allowing the girls to wear a skirt because I can't see any other real gender difference in most school uniforms? I guess shoes. Most of the "gender neutral" clothing that I see is fairly masculine looking to me. Sometimes they change the colour or a pattern but most schools have a fairly neutral plain colours anyway.

In my secondary school, the girls had a choice to wear trousers or a skirt. I can only recall one or two that wore trousers. It wasn't an issue that they did but the point is that most of the girls chose to wear a skirt because they wanted to.

andekwarhola

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I don't understand why boys and girls have to wear different uniforms at school anyway. Especially when girls have to wear skirts down to their ankles, it's like something out of the nineteenth century.

Do most schools not let girls opt for uniform trousers these days?

failinis

andekwarhola wrote: »

Do most schools not let girls opt for uniform trousers these days?

Mine didn't, and it was an all female school and I know we had student votes to allow the option of trousers, which were rebuked.
I know a lot of us would have liked a choice.

rainbow kirby

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Tracksuit, t-shirt, runners. Bought in a supermarket. Probably all a primary uniform needs to consist of anyway regardless of gender.

I honestly can't remember seeing any primary schoolkids going to school in anything but a tracksuit in the UK anyway.

I think I had a choice of a skirt and sweatshirt or full tracksuit at my primary in South Co. Dublin, so of course I went for the tracksuit and I can't really remember anyone going for a skirt.

Secondary was different as it was an all girls school and we all wore skirts, but I had friends who wore trousers to school the same as the boys for secondary.

So gender-neutral clothing has been with us a very long time, I'm 29. It's nothing new, just the terminology and the fuss around it.

Presumably the toilets in everybodys houses are gender-neutral, so I don't see why that has to be a huge issue either.

The_Valeyard

Fleawuss wrote: »

Lots of stuff pushed at kids in national school that doesn't make sense. You can't bite Mary Anne in the playground but you can buy a nice dress and eat Jesus in first communion.

But but but......

Maybe we should get rid of all the guff out of school and concentrate on teaching reality.

Fair play, interesting attempt to derail a thread.

osarusan

Am I the only one who hasn't a notion why the story about the Norwegian lad stuck in the toilet has been shoehorned into the OP?

Grayson

ceadaoin. wrote: »

As far as I know, kids aren't given hormones but puberty blockers. These will leave them sterile if they never go through puberty. Once they have been started down that path it's virtually impossible to back out. Given that studies have shown that 60-90% of 'trans' kids do not identify as trans as adults, I predict a lot of messed up people as a result of this current trend.

Have you got stats for the 60-90%? I googled and found this

https://gendermom.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/80-percent-change-back/

At last year’s Gender Odyssey conference, where families with kids like mine gather from all corners of the country, I attended a talk given by Dr. Johanna Olson. She works with transgender kids in Los Angeles. She’s a smart and outspoken advocate for these children, and she’s been featured on national TV talking about her work.

Here’s what she said: “The ‘80 percent’ statistic is based on a flawed 2008 study done in the Netherlands.” She then described the study, explaining that the researchers looked at young children who were initially identified as transgender. It then checked back on them after a year or so. But it lost track of a bunch of those kids. For some reason, these kids didn’t come back for the follow-up research. So the researchers made the assumption that these kids had reverted back to their original gender. These kids were simply assumed to be not transgender, and these kids created the “80 percent.”

This article cites a number of studies that claim the 80% number is wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'm not saying that kids should automatically get their gender reassigned. I think it's something that should be done after a rake of tests and therapy. However I also think that if, after all that, a load of experts agree that it's a smart move, then it should be considered.

noaddedsugar

Candie wrote: »

I honestly can't remember seeing any primary schoolkids going to school in anything but a tracksuit in the UK anyway.

I think I had a choice of a skirt and sweatshirt or full tracksuit at my primary in South Co. Dublin, so of course I went for the tracksuit and I can't really remember anyone going for a skirt.

Secondary was different as it was an all girls school and we all wore skirts, but I had friends who wore trousers to school the same as the boys for secondary.

So gender-neutral clothing has been with us a very long time, I'm 29. It's nothing new, just the terminology and the fuss around it.

Presumably the toilets in everybodys houses are gender-neutral, so I don't see why that has to be a huge issue either.

I'm surprised people don't seem to see the difference between the loo in your house which you family, you know those closest to you share and a public loo which in a school could be used by 100s of people a day, some you don't know at all. There are loads of things I do at home surrounded by my family that I wouldn't do/wand to do in public.

strandroad

Grayson wrote: »

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'd be classified as transgender in this "study" based on my love for Lego Technic? :O

Burial.

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would they feel uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with someone of the other sex? Surely they don't have a loo for mommy and a separate one for dad at home?

I suspect, personally, that most primary school kids couldn't give a flying toot who they go to the loo with. The people uncomfortable about this are most likely adults.

This just isn't true. Kids up until the late stages of primary school are fearful of the opposite sex in general. It's certainly improving but it's not like secondary school where boys and girls can't stay away from each other. It's easy to forget this as adults but boys and girls are quite shy and reserved around each other. Sharing a toilet would be a frightening experience for the majority. What's more is that when it comes to going to the toilet and what's more a lot of children are fearful of sharing a toilet with the same sex, especially in the lower classes.

gordongekko

When clothes start wearing thin, Its time to get new clothes.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Grayson wrote: »

Have you got stats for the 60-90%? I googled and found this

https://gendermom.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/80-percent-change-back/




This article cites a number of studies that claim the 80% number is wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'm not saying that kids should automatically get their gender reassigned. I think it's something that should be done after a rake of tests and therapy. However I also think that if, after all that, a load of experts agree that it's a smart move, then it should be considered.

Surely kids as young as primary school age are not either mature or informed enough to even understand the concept of gender identification.

fatknacker

Why can't we just dress all kids up in skirts and burkinis and be done with it.

Grayson

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Surely kids as young as primary school age are not either mature or informed enough to even understand the concept of gender identification.

They understand gender identification. I knew the difference between boys and girls. Sexual orientation they probably wouldn't have a clue about but gender identification is a lot easier.

That's not to say that a boy who wants to wear a dress is gender dysmorphic. They could change their mind next week. It's persistent behaviour over years. And it should be dealt with by a professional over years.

ceadaoin.

Grayson wrote: »

Have you got stats for the 60-90%? I googled and found this

https://gendermom.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/80-percent-change-back/




This article cites a number of studies that claim the 80% number is wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'm not saying that kids should automatically get their gender reassigned. I think it's something that should be done after a rake of tests and therapy. However I also think that if, after all that, a load of experts agree that it's a smart move, then it should be considered.

The following page lists 11 studies of varying sizes which have all reached similar conclusions

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1

The mom in that blog says herself that the signs her 3 year old child is transgender were

The insistence on wearing only pink, the passion for dolls

Maybe if gendered toys and clothes weren't so rigidly enforced there wouldn't be a record number of children seeking to transition

Autonomous Cowherd

This whole transgendered children thing is getting way out of line. Of course children are gender fluid, of course young people are ambivalent about which gender they prefer, this is very natural and will settle in time to an authentic orientation. To give children hormones to hold back puberty is outrageous. To interfere to such an extent with a child's destiny. I find these parents raising very young kids as a gender other than the one they present with genitally as being loathsome attention seekers. Just eff off with yourself. My youngest son wore dresses by choice until he was 4 or 5, way back in the years when transgender was not even a word, and it never once crossed my mind to ''identify'' him as anything except my darling child. I swear I never once wondered about his ''gender identification''. Cheesus, just let the children be! All this political correctness is making my head spin.

Autonomous Cowherd

And I have no idea about the political ideology of this researcher, or any agendas being pushed so I may be misrepresenting, but a report recently published by Dr. Lawrence S Mayer reviews a huge amount of data and finds....

“There is little scientific evidence for the therapeutic value of interventions that delay puberty or modify the secondary sex characteristics of adolescents, although some children may have improved psychological well-being if they are encouraged and supported in their cross-gender identification.There is no evidence that all children who express gender-atypical thoughts or behavior should be encouraged to become transgender.”

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/preface-sexuality-and-gender

padd b1975

The terms sissy and tomboy were more than adequate in my day.
Everyone knew or were told what they were and nobody really made much of a fuss either way.

But of course as fairy cakes inexplicably became cup cakes, over-analysis by insufferable label merchants who are unable to mind their own business kicked in and we're well on the way to totally and needlessly ****ing up a generation before they've even got out into the real world.

Well done everyone.

Shenshen

Burial. wrote: »

This just isn't true. Kids up until the late stages of primary school are fearful of the opposite sex in general. It's certainly improving but it's not like secondary school where boys and girls can't stay away from each other. It's easy to forget this as adults but boys and girls are quite shy and reserved around each other. Sharing a toilet would be a frightening experience for the majority. What's more is that when it comes to going to the toilet and what's more a lot of children are fearful of sharing a toilet with the same sex, especially in the lower classes.

Interesting - that's exactly the opposite to the way I remember my own childhood. I remember there being little to no difference between playing with boys or playing with girls while we were small, but distance and fear kicking in with puberty.
We never had gendered toilets in kindergarden, and I remember teachers in primary school telling us to go to the other toilet if all the stalls in our own were taken.

But then, that was the 70s in Germany. People seemed to be a bit more practical-minded and not as concerned about making sure boys and girls behaved the way society would expect them to.

2RockMountain

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

My youngest son wore dresses by choice until he was 4 or 5, way back in the years when transgender was not even a word, and it never once crossed my mind to ''identify'' him as anything except my darling child. I swear I never once wondered about his ''gender identification''. Cheesus, just let the children be! All this political correctness is making my head spin.

Do yourself a favour and watch this documentary, or any serious documentary on this issue;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRzE6cpZGVU

You might be able to find a better quality version of the documentary if you dig around a bit.

Here's some reaction to the broadcast;
http://www.irishexaminer.com/examviral/real-life/is-5-too-young-to-know-louis-therouxs-transgender-kids-has-boggled-minds-322404.html

This is not a 'dressing up' issue. It is in a slightly different league to the situation you described.

Irish Guitarist

I'm glad I'm not a child in this day and age. When I was two years old my favourite toy was a doll. When I was about ten I went through a phase of reading Care Bears comics (mainly because they were published by Marvel, the same company that published Transformers). If I did this now (and if my parents were complete idiots) I'd end up being carted off to have my knob lobbed off.

2RockMountain

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I'm glad I'm not a child in this day and age. When I was two years old my favourite toy was a doll. When I was about ten I went through a phase of reading Care Bears comics (mainly because they were published by Marvel, the same company that published Transformers). If I did this now (and if my parents were complete idiots) I'd end up being carted off to have my knob lobbed off.

Are you aware of any cases where 'idiot' parents have made decisions like this?

darkpagandeath

Trousers are a modern invention anyway. Back to stocking/Leg wraps/kilts/smocks ?? And if people are going to argue on colour... That's Retar*ed

Arcade_Tryer

Uniforms are the problem here.

No need for them whatsoever in state funded schools.

The argument about some kids being able to afford nicer clothes causing other kids to cry is the only argument that has worn thin over the last decade or so.

darkpagandeath

2RockMountain wrote: »

Are you aware of any cases where 'idiot' parents have made decisions like this?

If you have gender neutral clothes toys etc, How will the child decide what Gender it is ?

johnty56

I am currently having bits of toaster and old microwaves grafted onto my 5 year old as they have insisted on being identified as a robot for the last few weeks.

Which toilet should it use?

2RockMountain

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If you have gender neutral clothes toys etc, How will the child decide what Gender it is ?

Same as any other child. If I change your gender and toys, will you know what your gender is?

darkpagandeath

2RockMountain wrote: »

Same as any other child. If I change your gender and toys, will you know what your gender is?

We are told Gender is a social construct and genitalia does not mean Gender. So again how will they decide with no frame of reference ?

2RockMountain

darkpagandeath wrote: »

We are told Gender is a social construct and genitalia does not mean Gender. So again how will they decide with no frame of reference ?

I've no idea who told you what, and I'm not responsible for what others may have told you. But if you want to know what gender a child is, ask them. Listen to the kids that Louis Theroux met up telling him and their parents from very early ages that their gender does not match their body.

darkpagandeath

2RockMountain wrote: »

I've no idea who told you what, and I'm not responsible for what others may have told you. But if you want to know what gender a child is, ask them. Listen to the kids that Louis Theroux met up telling him and their parents from very early ages that their gender does not match their body.

Really, Who explained gender to the child ?

2RockMountain

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really, Who explained gender to the child ?

Watch the documentary and you'll get it. I guess the kids picked it up from the world they live in, seeing parents, siblings and other people of different genders. They didn't live in a hermetically sealed container. And I'm not sure that any of them were the result of some kind of psychological test with 'gender neutral' everything. They're just ordinary kids in ordinary families, who managed to work out that their gender doesn't match their bodies.

Grayson

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The following page lists 11 studies of varying sizes which have all reached similar conclusions

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1

The mom in that blog says herself that the signs her 3 year old child is transgender were



Maybe if gendered toys and clothes weren't so rigidly enforced there wouldn't be a record number of children seeking to transition

I haven't gone through each of the studies yet (I will). I've read three of them so far, they're quite interesting.
A few things have struck me so far.
The criteria used vary from study to study. For example the Zucker study uses the following criteria. You just have to meet one to be considered gender dysmorphic.
(1) identity statements,
(2) dress-up play/cross dressing,
(3) toy play,
(4) roles in fantasy play,
(5) peer relations,
(6) motoric and speech characteristics,
(7) involvement in rough-and-tumble play,
(8) statements about sexual anatomy.

It's not hard to see how this can't be used to determine who is gender dysmorphic.

There's a similar range of behaviours described in Zucker & Bradley (1995), Zucker & Cohen-Kettenis (2008) and Cohen-Kettenis & Pfäfflin, (2003).

There are flawed methodologies in a lot of these studies. And studies like Singh are meta studies. They use the previous work as the basis of their own work. Singh especially states in his intro that he's against realignment at a younger age because he believes it will reinforce false perceptions. Now he may be right but he's working on the assumption that there are false perceptions. He even states later that societal pressures (bullying etc) can cause a child to deny any desire to be a different gender in public and even when being interviewed for the study but that they express different feelings when in therapy.

Either way nothing I've read has changed my mind that realignment at a younger age, after a long period of study and therapy, is a bad thing.

Autonomous Cowherd

2RockMountain wrote: »

Listen to the kids that Louis Theroux met up telling him and their parents from very early ages that their gender does not match their body.

I will watch the documentary you have linked when my gigabytes recover from a recent youtube binge Thank you for the link.

My take is that people have felt gender fluid from the year dot, some more so than others. I do not perceive this (at the moment) as necessarily requiring radical surgical intervention which some studies have shown to be ineffective at changing psychological discomfort, and certainly I do not support hormones pre-puberty, as gender identification is too unstable early in life.
It is a cultural problem more than anything, a problem of comfortable acceptance in society of difference. Several cultures have accommodated people who live as third sex or intersex or such like for centuries, without the need for any kind of gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia a or radical physical adjustment.
All operations carry serious risks and the remodeling of genitalia must pose problems. I do not understand why the surgery option is kept front and centre. To me, it is far deeper than this. But especially with respect to children, the body adjustment option via hormones seems to me to be rash and extreme.

My understanding of humanity is that at a profound level we all carry male and female energies within us, one of which generally dominates, though this may alternate, and we just happen to have sex organs that generally match our predominant gender identification. Or not. In either case why be too worried? Love and Sex are possible without surgical adjustment. Living as a happy social being is possible without radical surgery.
Making gender identification so focused on body above all else in these times seems to me to be an extension of the body obsessiveness of modern culture. It parallels a wider societal obsession with psychological happiness being dependent upon physical appearance.
IMO, the issue of living, however one prefers, begins and ends with how one thinks and feels, not with how one appears.
Okay fine for adults to make a choice for reassignment, if they feel it necessary to support them, but I do not think children should be encouraged in this way. Rather all children should be encouraged to feel confident however they appear.
Perhaps the transgender movement could move beyond this body dysphoria focus, which seems very limited and unduly hyped in my view, and explore how humans can comfortably feel female or male-identified regardless of physical presentation. The deeper work of being essentially happy during a brief life as a human being, in other words.

_Kaiser_

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I'm glad I'm not a child in this day and age. When I was two years old my favourite toy was a doll. When I was about ten I went through a phase of reading Care Bears comics (mainly because they were published by Marvel, the same company that published Transformers). If I did this now (and if my parents were complete idiots) I'd end up being carted off to have my knob lobbed off.

I have a 4 year old boy myself and I genuinely worry about what he's going to face in school over the next decade if threads like this (and the many more Americanised "right on" topics that fill this forum these days) are any indication - not because he's "gender fluid" or whatever PC nonsense is in vogue at the moment, but because he'll be told (directly or or otherwise) that everything he currently accepts as normal and natural isn't in fact the case and he must embrace and advocate that diversity.

Projecting adult-oriented concepts and agendas onto young children who haven't the capability to fully process it is wrong and something I will never support.

When he inevitably comes to me about it I'll probably just tell him the same thing I'll be telling him about religion (something he won't be doing if I have any say in it ) - that some people feel/believe different things and that's perfectly fine as long as they don't force it on you or pressure you to change who you are. Never be afraid to question things and make your own mind up, even if it might be unpopular at the time.

Autonomous Cowherd

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I

Projecting adult-oriented concepts and agendas onto young children who haven't the capability to fully process it is wrong and something I will never support.

I watched the Louis Theroux documentary. It was informative but did not fundamentally change my point of view. I watched a few other better ones, addressing the transgender children issue from a POV other than an American one - those docs were better. It is persuasive in many ways to see children speak so clearly...
BUT...
and following in the spirit of Kaiser's quote...
in those documentaries I also saw a great degree of extremely early sexualisation of children, never mind their gender issues. The especially young boy who identifies as Camille in Theroux's documentary rocking out to a pop song with extremely suggestive sexual moves gave me a strong impression of a child who had been influenced by the hyper-sexual world that is now ubiquitous in children's lives. I think this is an issue that should be addressed.
I saw a fair amount of children being influenced by information they had picked up from Google. As we know google is self-selecting as an information source, generally reinforcing cognitive dissonance.
I also saw a fair amount of mother's with borderline Munchausen's by proxy in the documentaries, and emasculated fathers, and attention starved children. Not all, by no means, but it is there.
I also saw physicians, surgeons, psychiatrists, and social workers protecting a new lucrative corner of a market they are carving out. Yeah, I am cynical.

I learned that many transgender identifying children do not experience dysphoria about their genitals. They feel fine in general with their penis or vagina, they just wish to live as the opposite gender.
So overall I feel there is not as much need for surgical or hormonal intervention to be so front and centre of this movement....better to embrace people's differences in a more general way.