Argument for gender neutral clothes is wearing thin

Calahonda52 · 27-08-2016 03:38PM #1

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/argument-for-gender-neutral-clothes-is-wearing-thin-418009.html

INTO head, Peter Mullan, has asked that primary schools adopt uni-sex or non-gendered uniforms, along with non-gendered toilets, so that transgender children are protected.

Have we lost the plot completely here: so if there is an emergency in the head with a child, will it need three teachers, one male and one female and one spare or will they be gender neutral as well.
eg:
Norway man rescued after climbing into public toilet
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37196629

Mullen would be better off getting his lot to teach basic maths in National school so as we don't have remedial classes in first year in both secondary school and Uni.
It just does not add up.

RobertKK · 27-08-2016 03:45PM

When I was going to school, there were no gender neutral children to discriminate.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 27-08-2016 03:57PM

I don't like how this is being pushed on children, putting a child through gender realignment treatment is tantamount to child abuse imo. How can a kid whose mind is not fully developed consent to this?

Parents need to allow their children to mature into adulthood and make their own decision on the matter if the feelings are still present.

Junkyard Tom · 27-08-2016 03:59PM

Can you summarise the issue here?

biko · 27-08-2016 03:59PM

Kilts for everyone!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 27-08-2016 04:24PM

I don't understand why boys and girls have to wear different uniforms at school anyway. Especially when girls have to wear skirts down to their ankles, it's like something out of the nineteenth century.

Grayson · 27-08-2016 05:07PM

RobertKK wrote: »

When I was going to school, there were no gender neutral children to discriminate.

When I was in school there were no gay kids either............ because they would have gotten a kicking.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I don't like how this is being pushed on children, putting a child through gender realignment treatment is tantamount to child abuse imo. How can a kid whose mind is not fully developed consent to this?

Parents need to allow their children to mature into adulthood and make their own decision on the matter if the feelings are still present.

At the same time if there is a child with a gender issue, and the best path is to start early on gender realignment, it could be considered abuse to ignore it.

Honestly, I know very little about these things. All I know is that for a child to start these procedures they have to go through a load of assessments because as you said , to give it to a child (who doesn't need it) would be abuse.

ceadaoin. · 27-08-2016 05:15PM

Grayson wrote: »

When I was in school there were no gay kids either............ because they would have gotten a kicking.

At the same time if there is a child with a gender issue, and the best path is to start early on gender realignment, it could be considered abuse to ignore it.

Honestly, I know very little about these things. All I know is that for a child to start these procedures they have to go through a load of assessments because as you said , to give it to a child (who doesn't need it) would be abuse.

As far as I know, kids aren't given hormones but puberty blockers. These will leave them sterile if they never go through puberty. Once they have been started down that path it's virtually impossible to back out. Given that studies have shown that 60-90% of 'trans' kids do not identify as trans as adults, I predict a lot of messed up people as a result of this current trend.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 27-08-2016 05:17PM

This absolutely should not be pushed on children.
I don't really care if someone identifies with being a transgender person, but if other kids are not comfortable sharing unisex bathrooms then this should not be pushed on them for fear of offending a tiny minority. Transgender feelings are not the only feelings that need to be catered for

RobertKK · 27-08-2016 05:18PM

Grayson wrote: »

When I was in school there were no gay kids either............ because they would have gotten a kicking.

In primary school didn't even know what gay was. I remember in secondary school, there was this new student and some of the ones who were bullies started calling him gay. I remember feeling sorry for how he was being treated, it didn't matter to me what he was or wasn't, he wasn't gay for the record but you are right, it would have made a person a target.

_Kaiser_ · 27-08-2016 05:31PM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

This absolutely should not be pushed on children.
I don't really care if someone identifies with being a transgender person, but if other kids are not comfortable sharing unisex bathrooms then this should not be pushed on them for fear of offending a tiny minority. Transgender feelings are not the only feelings that need to be catered for

I'd have to agree with this... the current trend of facilitating every minority's "needs" regardless of the impact to the majority is getting out of hand. It used to be confined to the likes of Twitter and Facebook and US College Campuses, but now we have a guy who really SHOULD know better.

Kids have enough to be dealing with in school and puberty without having to also be pushed into uncomfortable situations to accommodate something that may or may not even be an issue in that school.

My opinion personally is that this whole topic shouldn't even be an issue until someone matures into adulthood. At that point they can do whatever they want, identify however they want - but until then who they "are" changes regularly anyway.

No doubt I'll be told I'm wrong by our resident experts on the subject but to me this is yet another example of those rushing to show how "enlightened" they are by pushing their agenda on everyone else - even those who at that age will have no concept of what they're on about!

Shenshen · 27-08-2016 05:42PM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

This absolutely should not be pushed on children.
I don't really care if someone identifies with being a transgender person, but if other kids are not comfortable sharing unisex bathrooms then this should not be pushed on them for fear of offending a tiny minority. Transgender feelings are not the only feelings that need to be catered for

Why would they feel uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with someone of the other sex? Surely they don't have a loo for mommy and a separate one for dad at home?

I suspect, personally, that most primary school kids couldn't give a flying toot who they go to the loo with. The people uncomfortable about this are most likely adults.

rainbow kirby · 27-08-2016 05:55PM

Tracksuit, t-shirt, runners. Bought in a supermarket. Probably all a primary uniform needs to consist of anyway regardless of gender.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 27-08-2016 05:56PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would they feel uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with someone of the other sex? Surely they don't have a loo for mommy and a separate one for dad at home?

I suspect, personally, that most primary school kids couldn't give a flying toot who they go to the loo with. The people uncomfortable about this are most likely adults.

Secondary school?
I hit puberty in primary school too, starting my period at 11 and becoming aware of what was going on in regards to different bodies

Fleawuss · 27-08-2016 06:04PM

Lots of stuff pushed at kids in national school that doesn't make sense. You can't bite Mary Anne in the playground but you can buy a nice dress and eat Jesus in first communion.

But but but......

Maybe we should get rid of all the guff out of school and concentrate on teaching reality.

Shenshen · 27-08-2016 07:10PM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Secondary school?
I hit puberty in primary school too, starting my period at 11 and becoming aware of what was going on in regards to different bodies

So did I, and I still had to share the bathroom with my two younger (and, frankly, remarkably cruel) brothers.

Olishi4 · 27-08-2016 07:19PM

Other than the reference to the Burkini and male swimwear having to change, making the uniform gender neutral is just not allowing the girls to wear a skirt because I can't see any other real gender difference in most school uniforms? I guess shoes. Most of the "gender neutral" clothing that I see is fairly masculine looking to me. Sometimes they change the colour or a pattern but most schools have a fairly neutral plain colours anyway.

In my secondary school, the girls had a choice to wear trousers or a skirt. I can only recall one or two that wore trousers. It wasn't an issue that they did but the point is that most of the girls chose to wear a skirt because they wanted to.

andekwarhola · 27-08-2016 08:18PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I don't understand why boys and girls have to wear different uniforms at school anyway. Especially when girls have to wear skirts down to their ankles, it's like something out of the nineteenth century.

Do most schools not let girls opt for uniform trousers these days?

failinis · 27-08-2016 08:38PM

andekwarhola wrote: »

Do most schools not let girls opt for uniform trousers these days?

Mine didn't, and it was an all female school and I know we had student votes to allow the option of trousers, which were rebuked.
I know a lot of us would have liked a choice.

27-08-2016 08:57PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Tracksuit, t-shirt, runners. Bought in a supermarket. Probably all a primary uniform needs to consist of anyway regardless of gender.

I honestly can't remember seeing any primary schoolkids going to school in anything but a tracksuit in the UK anyway.

I think I had a choice of a skirt and sweatshirt or full tracksuit at my primary in South Co. Dublin, so of course I went for the tracksuit and I can't really remember anyone going for a skirt.

Secondary was different as it was an all girls school and we all wore skirts, but I had friends who wore trousers to school the same as the boys for secondary.

So gender-neutral clothing has been with us a very long time, I'm 29. It's nothing new, just the terminology and the fuss around it.

Presumably the toilets in everybodys houses are gender-neutral, so I don't see why that has to be a huge issue either.

The_Valeyard · 27-08-2016 09:21PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Lots of stuff pushed at kids in national school that doesn't make sense. You can't bite Mary Anne in the playground but you can buy a nice dress and eat Jesus in first communion.

But but but......

Maybe we should get rid of all the guff out of school and concentrate on teaching reality.

Fair play, interesting attempt to derail a thread.

osarusan · 27-08-2016 09:24PM

Am I the only one who hasn't a notion why the story about the Norwegian lad stuck in the toilet has been shoehorned into the OP?

Grayson · 27-08-2016 10:27PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

As far as I know, kids aren't given hormones but puberty blockers. These will leave them sterile if they never go through puberty. Once they have been started down that path it's virtually impossible to back out. Given that studies have shown that 60-90% of 'trans' kids do not identify as trans as adults, I predict a lot of messed up people as a result of this current trend.

Have you got stats for the 60-90%? I googled and found this

https://gendermom.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/80-percent-change-back/

At last year’s Gender Odyssey conference, where families with kids like mine gather from all corners of the country, I attended a talk given by Dr. Johanna Olson. She works with transgender kids in Los Angeles. She’s a smart and outspoken advocate for these children, and she’s been featured on national TV talking about her work.

Here’s what she said: “The ‘80 percent’ statistic is based on a flawed 2008 study done in the Netherlands.” She then described the study, explaining that the researchers looked at young children who were initially identified as transgender. It then checked back on them after a year or so. But it lost track of a bunch of those kids. For some reason, these kids didn’t come back for the follow-up research. So the researchers made the assumption that these kids had reverted back to their original gender. These kids were simply assumed to be not transgender, and these kids created the “80 percent.”

This article cites a number of studies that claim the 80% number is wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'm not saying that kids should automatically get their gender reassigned. I think it's something that should be done after a rake of tests and therapy. However I also think that if, after all that, a load of experts agree that it's a smart move, then it should be considered.

noaddedsugar · 27-08-2016 10:39PM

Candie wrote: »

I honestly can't remember seeing any primary schoolkids going to school in anything but a tracksuit in the UK anyway.

I think I had a choice of a skirt and sweatshirt or full tracksuit at my primary in South Co. Dublin, so of course I went for the tracksuit and I can't really remember anyone going for a skirt.

Secondary was different as it was an all girls school and we all wore skirts, but I had friends who wore trousers to school the same as the boys for secondary.

So gender-neutral clothing has been with us a very long time, I'm 29. It's nothing new, just the terminology and the fuss around it.

Presumably the toilets in everybodys houses are gender-neutral, so I don't see why that has to be a huge issue either.

I'm surprised people don't seem to see the difference between the loo in your house which you family, you know those closest to you share and a public loo which in a school could be used by 100s of people a day, some you don't know at all. There are loads of things I do at home surrounded by my family that I wouldn't do/wand to do in public.

strandroad · 27-08-2016 10:47PM

Grayson wrote: »

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'd be classified as transgender in this "study" based on my love for Lego Technic? :O

Burial. · 27-08-2016 10:59PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Why would they feel uncomfortable about sharing a bathroom with someone of the other sex? Surely they don't have a loo for mommy and a separate one for dad at home?

I suspect, personally, that most primary school kids couldn't give a flying toot who they go to the loo with. The people uncomfortable about this are most likely adults.

This just isn't true. Kids up until the late stages of primary school are fearful of the opposite sex in general. It's certainly improving but it's not like secondary school where boys and girls can't stay away from each other. It's easy to forget this as adults but boys and girls are quite shy and reserved around each other. Sharing a toilet would be a frightening experience for the majority. What's more is that when it comes to going to the toilet and what's more a lot of children are fearful of sharing a toilet with the same sex, especially in the lower classes.

gordongekko · 27-08-2016 11:02PM

When clothes start wearing thin, Its time to get new clothes.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 27-08-2016 11:22PM

Grayson wrote: »

Have you got stats for the 60-90%? I googled and found this

https://gendermom.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/80-percent-change-back/

This article cites a number of studies that claim the 80% number is wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'm not saying that kids should automatically get their gender reassigned. I think it's something that should be done after a rake of tests and therapy. However I also think that if, after all that, a load of experts agree that it's a smart move, then it should be considered.

Surely kids as young as primary school age are not either mature or informed enough to even understand the concept of gender identification.

fatknacker · 27-08-2016 11:32PM

Why can't we just dress all kids up in skirts and burkinis and be done with it.

Grayson · 28-08-2016 02:05AM

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Surely kids as young as primary school age are not either mature or informed enough to even understand the concept of gender identification.

They understand gender identification. I knew the difference between boys and girls. Sexual orientation they probably wouldn't have a clue about but gender identification is a lot easier.

That's not to say that a boy who wants to wear a dress is gender dysmorphic. They could change their mind next week. It's persistent behaviour over years. And it should be dealt with by a professional over years.

ceadaoin. · 28-08-2016 04:15AM

Grayson wrote: »

Have you got stats for the 60-90%? I googled and found this

https://gendermom.wordpress.com/2014/06/13/80-percent-change-back/

This article cites a number of studies that claim the 80% number is wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/01/14/what_alarmist_articles_about_transgender_children_get_wrong.html

They say that if a girl says she like playing with boys toys then she was classified as transgender for the studies. It didn't matter if the child identified as a boy or as a girl. So the studies weren't actually looking at transgendered kids, that is kids with gender dysmorphia.

I'm not saying that kids should automatically get their gender reassigned. I think it's something that should be done after a rake of tests and therapy. However I also think that if, after all that, a load of experts agree that it's a smart move, then it should be considered.

The following page lists 11 studies of varying sizes which have all reached similar conclusions

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1

The mom in that blog says herself that the signs her 3 year old child is transgender were

The insistence on wearing only pink, the passion for dolls

Maybe if gendered toys and clothes weren't so rigidly enforced there wouldn't be a record number of children seeking to transition

Argument for gender neutral clothes is wearing thin

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