Ethics of beating the ****e outta criminals.

seamus · 25-08-2016 01:50PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

Is that a functioning criminal justice system?

You may be content with the current dysfunctional system but don't try to pretend that it works.

Can you give an example of any justice system anywhere in the world that is "working" in your definition? Apparently because the Irish system isn't perfect, it's "not working"? Best of luck, you're going to be very disappointed with everything, everywhere.

Criminal justice isn't and can never be a perfect system. All you can do is continue refining and improving.

Vigilantism is the very bottom rung of ladder; individuals doling out punishment beatings wherever and whenever they feel like it.

Even the most minimally functional system full of corruption (think Brazil) is preferable to vigilantism.

sbsquarepants · 25-08-2016 01:50PM

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

No I'm saying I'd lose my rag at the possibility of this scumbag hurting someone I love, and I'd potentially smash his head in. Thats not right of course, I'd be guilty of assault and of breaching my personal ethics or whatever. But in those sorts of situations, I would doubtless be quite enraged.

Understandable.

But think of it this way - if you did smash his head in in a fit of rage and through sheer chance you got away with it, no witnesses, cops aren't going to kill themselves investigating - would you put your hand up and confess because you believe that's the right thing to do?
Or would you say "fúck him, he deserved it" and get on with your life - because you believe that's the right thing to do?

There's zero doubt in my mind which path I'd choose.
And by definition that is condoning violence.

starshine1234 · 25-08-2016 01:56PM

I had said.

starshine1234 wrote:

Seamus, any comment to make on the Police Commissioner committing violent criminal acts and remaining unpunished?

Rakish Paddy asked

Rakish Paddy wrote: »

I must admit I'm out of the loop on that one - what act(s) of violent crime did he commit?

Section 20, Criminal Justice Act 2011.
Harrassment of employees who act as whistle blowers by employers.

Maurice McCabe, a whistleblower who exposed serious corruption within the Gardai, states that his life, his career and his family have been destroyed. Those things were destroyed by the Gardai in general, and by Martin Callinan in particular.

It's a disgrace that Martin Callinan is above the law. He remains free and at large despite the fact that he violently and thuggishly persecuted members of the Guards.

Despicable.

As I say, I have written to the Garda Press Office asking for comment on this and they refuse to reply. Cowards.

I can't explain why no journalist is asking the same questions.

The mass grave of 800 bodies is a seperate issue, as is the 45,000 penalty points, or the 100,000 untaxed tractors.

Your Face · 25-08-2016 01:58PM

Some people have it coming.

seamus · 25-08-2016 02:00PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

I had said.

Yeah you had. Why would I comment on every specific example of imperfection that you feel the need to bring up?

The system is imperfect.

Show me one that isn't.

I would also point out that your claim of Callinan committing a violent act appears to be complete nonsense, and all part of some crazy conspiracy theory in your head.

Good luck with your crusade for a perfect justice system. You will of course be horrifically disappointed, but I'm pretty sure I won't be able to convince you otherwise, you're too far gone for that.

starshine1234 · 25-08-2016 02:04PM

seamus wrote: »

...
I would also point out that your claim of Callinan committing a violent act appears to be complete nonsense, and all part of some crazy conspiracy theory in your head.

Good luck with your crusade for a perfect justice system.....

Nonsense.

I've named the specific section of the specific act.

Section 20 of the Criminal Justice Act 2011.

Callinan engaged in harassment and intimidation of whistleblowers. Those are violent acts, and they are expressly outlawed by Section 20 of the criminal code as I mention above. There are criminal penalties.

Therefore, my claim that Martin Callinan, ex Police Commissioner, committed violent criminal acts appear to be correct and true.

Why do you seek to deny the truth?

Any comment to make on the mass grave of 800 bodies?

seamus · 25-08-2016 02:11PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

Those are violent acts

Only if those acts involve the use of physical force intended to cause physical injury. The accusation is already pretty serious, you don't have to insert hysterical hyperbole to make it sound worse.

Any comment to make on the mass grave of 800 bodies?

Any comment to make on which country you think has a working justice system that would be guaranteed to address these issues?

You'll find similar examples of apparent horrendous policing in every single country in the world. Where is this perfectly working justice system you appear to think exists?

starshine1234 · 25-08-2016 02:19PM

Harassment and intimidation are violent acts even if no physical violence has occurred.

starshine1234 · 25-08-2016 02:41PM

seamus wrote: »

... Where is this perfectly working justice system you appear to think exists?

Ok.

So no perfect criminal justice system exists. I concede that point, as a prefect justice system would require infallible actors within the system.

That's an argument for vigilantism, not against vigilantism.

If the state cannot secure justice, and you admit that no system is perfect, then it would seem the only way to ensure justice in some cases is for people to take it into their own hands.

That is what has happened in this case. The law failed to secure justice and so someone took it into their own hands.

My question is; is Martin Callinan a legitimate target for vigilantes?

The justice system has not only failed to secure justice for Maurice McCabe in this case; the justice system actually refuses to investigate.

Martin was police commissioner and his crimes should be taken seriously.

Vigilantism would serve a public interest here. It might force policitians to reconsider their policy of unjustly protecting their friends.

Can vigilantism be justified on the grounds that it serves a public function?

ThinkProgress · 25-08-2016 03:19PM

The key is not to hit them in the head too much... work the body a fair bit.

You don't want to kill them - even if they are total scum that deserve death - you just want them to spend the rest of their life in a great deal of pain and fear!

seamus · 25-08-2016 04:58PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

Ok.

So no perfect criminal justice system exists. I concede that point, as a prefect justice system would require infallible actors within the system.

That's an argument for vigilantism, not against vigilantism.

If the state cannot secure justice, and you admit that no system is perfect, then it would seem the only way to ensure justice in some cases is for people to take it into their own hands.

That makes absolutely no sense. Because perfection is not functionally achieveable, then any kind of chaos is perfectly fine?

For example, perfectly safe roads are impossible to achieve. People will always die. According to your logic, since perfection is not achievable we should just abandon all traffic laws and make it a free-for-all. Let people decide for themselves.

Of course that's insanity. Perfection should be the goal. A drive towards continuous improvement.

Vigilantism is a retrograde step, a disimprovement in any justice system. It does not serve a public function since its purpose is private revenge for alleged crimes, revenge which may or may not be proportionate to the crime. Vigilantism does not seek fair and just punishment for proven crimes. Quite the opposite.

If you consider vigilantism appropriate, what would be the appropriate "punishment" for Callinan? Would he even get a fair trial first?

starshine1234 · 25-08-2016 05:04PM

If the state systematically refuses to prosecute certain types of crime then vigilantism is the only answer.

People shouldn't be ashamed to stand up for themselves. People who refuse to act and who accept systematically negative outcomes are cowards.

Martin Callinan is a criminal and he should be punished. The fact that he's above the law devalues the entire system of law and order in this country. Therefore, it is reckless not to prosecute Martin as people may eventually take matters into their own hands.

MilesMorales1 · 25-08-2016 05:18PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Understandable.

But think of it this way - if you did smash his head in in a fit of rage and through sheer chance you got away with it, no witnesses, cops aren't going to kill themselves investigating - would you put your hand up and confess because you believe that's the right thing to do?
Or would you say "fúck him, he deserved it" and get on with your life - because you believe that's the right thing to do?

There's zero doubt in my mind which path I'd choose.
And by definition that is condoning violence.

Well my conscience is over active as it is when I haven't committed any crimes, I can't imagine what I'd be like if I committed a crime

Summer wind · 26-08-2016 01:06AM

He got less than what he deserved. A few thumps and hopefully a few boots in the hole. It's not like they went all reservoir dogs on him.

end of the road · 26-08-2016 01:50AM

livedadream wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-of-irelands-mostfeared-predators-is-beaten-up-in-vigilante-attack-34991008.html

One of Ireland's most-feared predators is beaten up in vigilante attack

is it wrong that i read this and was like, ah well...

.

i know i should be all, assault is wrong and he served his time but theres a small part of me saying, well like, maybe it was her brothers and i dont blame them.

General consensus?

all 5 of them are scum and should be locked up indefinitely.

Johngoose wrote: »

The only thing about this guy is that he is 100% a dispicable human being,there is no question of his innocence.He diserves to get a beating and to leave his area.The locals are only protecting women in their area.I know it might drive him into other areas,but we should be able to check up online what convicted sex attackers are in our areas, like in other countries.

these criminals aren't protecting anyone. they were simply looking for trouble for likes on social media. throw the lot of them in jail including sending him back to jail where he should be.

starshine1234 wrote: »

This incident represents a failure of the justice system, a failure of politics and a failure of the Gardai.

There is no justice in this country.

Serious criminals get off with very light sentences.

I find it very easy to understand why this has happened. Fair play to the vigilantes. They are not pussies and they stand up for themselves. If more people did then this country would be much better off.

The Gardai are corrupt and should be disbanded and reformed. Martin Callinan, the previous Garda Commissioner, was a violent criminal and yet he remains un-prosecuted.

Why is Martin above the law?
Is he a legitimate target for vigilantes?

Martin Callinan commited violent criminal acts in contravention of Section 20 of the Criminal Justice Act 2011. The fact he wasn't investigated or prosecuted shows what a farce this country is.
And yes, I have written to the Gardai Press Office asking for comment and they refuse to provide one.

There's a mass grave in Tuam, Galway with approx 800 bodies in it, and incredibly, the Gardai refuse to investigate.
Is it correct and proper that the Gardai refuse to investigate serious crime?
Is the person who made the decision not to investigate a legitimate target for vigilantes?

The hand wringers saying vigilante-ism is a crime should suggest a solution to our failed justice system.
They should also acknowledge that by not punishing criminals they are creating an environment where vigilantism can take hold, and become normalised.

not fair play to these criminals, they were looking for potential likes on social media who commited criminality. if these people actually abided by the law themselves and bothered to spend time trying to actually change things via proper means rather then behaving like wild animals for likes we would go a long way. even if we had life sentences for every single criminal the vigilantes would look for someone else to attack, it's what they do.

starshine1234 wrote: »

Do you concede that the system doesn't work full stop?

Are you happy not to have a functioning criminal justice system in this country?

Why do you describe people who are interested in justice as 'eejits'?
They have respect for themselves. They shouldn't be mocked for it.

because they have no interest in justice. commiting violent crime means one has no self respect, or respect for anyone else tbh. i'm unhappy about a lot of things in relation to the justice system but i'd rather it then gangs of violent ferrel thugs roming around beating for likes.

ShooterSF · 26-08-2016 03:11AM

https://youtu.be/eUNuvOZPmzE?t=1m

26-08-2016 07:30AM

seamus wrote: »

That's all subjective. Some people believe that if you break into someone's house and steal their TV you deserve to be shot dead.

If you break into someone's house you deserve absolutely everything that comes your way. You've zero business there. Same goes for anyone who steals a car. When I ever I hear of a robbed car crashing and killing the occupants, it's the owners of said car I feel sorry for mostly. They're the forgotten ones. I don't feel an ounce of sympathy for the thieving f*cks and frankly if they break themselves up or worse, then that's on them and nobody else. Same for any intruders. If you break and enter into someones family home, their sanctuary, and they give you an unmerciful hiding then you deserve it and aything else coming your way. Don't break into people's homes. Don't steal their cars.

AudreyHepburn · 26-08-2016 08:23AM

As much as I can understand why violence may seem like the only answer in some situations, the idea of a vigilante society really doesn't sit well with me.

If we start dragging every individual who as ever done us any kind of wrong into the streets and beating them to within an inch of their lives we become no better than mindless thugs ourselves. Why should violence be ok for some and not for others?

And it would be all too easy for innocent people to be wrongly targeted.

starshine1234 · 26-08-2016 11:00AM

end of the road wrote: »

all 5 of them are scum and should be locked up indefinitely.

great virtue signalling there.

end of the road wrote: »

these criminals aren't protecting anyone. they were simply looking for trouble for likes on social media.

How can you possibly know that?
How can you know what their motivations were?

end of the road wrote: »

...they were looking for potential likes on social media who commited criminality.

Again, why are you making things up?
Unless you are one of the vigilantes you cannot know why they did it?

Were you one of the vigilantes?

Vigilantism is perfectly fine when you live in a country like Ireland, where serious crimes are ignored, and serious criminals aren't punished.

Only a coward would accept this situation.

Ireland is full of big talkers who complain about everything but who do nothing to change anything.

Taking revenge is acceptable as punishment is a purpose of the criminal justice system. If the criminal justice system fails to act then someone else can step in to take over the states role.

It's the same as other charities. Who solve the states education problems, or solve the states health problems, or homeless problems. We need a charity who will take over the states role in punishing criminals.
So, in summary, vigilantes should be respected for the valuable social role they play.

starshine1234 · 26-08-2016 11:04AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

As much as I can understand why violence may seem like the only answer in some situations, the idea of a vigilante society really doesn't sit well with me.

If we start dragging every individual who as ever done us any kind of wrong into the streets and beating them to within an inch of their lives we become no better than mindless thugs ourselves. Why should violence be ok for some and not for others?

And it would be all too easy for innocent people to be wrongly targeted.

The difference is in the reason the violence is perpertrated.

If the state fails to ensure justice then either someone else steps in, or we all have to livein a unjust country.

I would prefer vigilantism to an unjust country.

I would prefer if the justice system could do its job and prosecute all criminals, not just those the government doesn't like and doesn't share a dinner table with.

seamus · 26-08-2016 11:13AM

starshine1234 wrote: »

I would prefer vigilantism to an unjust country.

Vigilantism is by definition unjust.

If a complaint was made against you, you would rather that a gang dragged you out of your house and beat you to within an inch of your life than have Gardai investigate it?

Whatever the personal vendetta is that you appear to have against the Gardai, your position on the wonders of vigilantes contains no logic or realism.

starshine1234 · 26-08-2016 11:20AM

My position on vigilantism is based on logic.

The state is required to provide education. It fails to do so. A charity steps in to provide education. Everybody says this is great.

The state is required to provide housing. It fails to do so. A charity steps in to provide housing. Everybody says this is great.

The state is required to provide healthcare. It fails to do so. A charity steps in to provide healthcare. Everybody says this is great.

The state is required to provide JUSTICE. It fails to do so. A charity steps in to provide JUSTICE.
The internet explodes.

My position is based on logic.

If the state cowardly refuses to act then ordinary people must step in to fill the breach.

I have no personal vendetta against the Gardai. The Gardai are corrupt and I'd prefer a proper, non corrupt, police force.

Are you telling me that's too much to ask for?

scdublin · 26-08-2016 12:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here you go, woman abducted and murdered, man confesses, family catch him and beat him to death, partially castrating him with a shovel...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/profiles/40-years-waiting-to-clear-his-name-199954.html

Sadly, 40 years later one of his co-accused had his conviction overturned as it was accepted that the "confessions" were not sound...

This is such a sad case, wow.

I know justice isn't always served in the courts and people think they need to take things into their own hands but I personally think wrong is wrong. You're breaking the law, end of story.

starshine1234 · 26-08-2016 12:16PM

scdublin wrote: »

This is such a sad case, wow.

I know justice isn't always served in the courts and people think they need to take things into their own hands but I personally think wrong is wrong. You're breaking the law, end of story.

Do you have a solution to the problem of the state refusing to prosecute all crimes and all criminals?

If you have no solution I feel it is unfair for you to criticise the only solution that exists.

The courts don't even get to see all criminals. The state prevents certain crimes from even being investigated.

scdublin · 26-08-2016 12:35PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

scdublin wrote: »

This is such a sad case, wow.

I know justice isn't always served in the courts and people think they need to take things into their own hands but I personally think wrong is wrong. You're breaking the law, end of story.

Do you have a solution to the problem of the state refusing to prosecute all crimes and all criminals?

If you have no solution I feel it is unfair for you to criticise the only solution that exists.

The courts don't even get to see all criminals. The state prevents certain crimes from even being investigated.

We need to try and sort out the issues with the courts and the state first before using these issues as an excuse to beat the crap out of people. I don't see how it helps the situation in the long term. You're committing a criminal act in retaliation to someone else committing a criminal act. Someone then seeks revenge for your criminal act and so on - where does it end?

I'm simply giving my opinion that ethically I don't believe in the "eye for an eye" mentality. I of course understand why people would feel they want to get justice if the legal system has failed them and in some cases don't blame them when they lose it and do something about it. It's still legally wrong though at the end of the day.

starshine1234 · 26-08-2016 01:05PM

The Gardai and the legal system has been dysfunctional for decades.

It is long past the point where it is reasonable to expect change.

The only way change can be accomplished would appear to be by using violence. The state ignores every other type of attempt.

The corruption and violence extends to the top of the Gardai. When the very people supposed to uphold moral codes and the rule of law are themselves corrupt we have major problems.

I don't appreciate that genuine and honest guards should have their lives destroyed by violent criminals and that those criminals are then protected by the state. That is obscene and wrong.

FunGoose · 26-08-2016 01:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Here you go, woman abducted and murdered, man confesses, family catch him and beat him to death, partially castrating him with a shovel...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/profiles/40-years-waiting-to-clear-his-name-199954.html

Sadly, 40 years later one of his co-accused had his conviction overturned as it was accepted that the "confessions" were not sound...

Thanks for the link, very interesting.

Great point too.

Musketeer4 · 26-08-2016 01:22PM

This is a regular occurence.
Remember early on this summer a paedophile was found to be living in the same locality as a school and he was set upon and beated black and blue by local parents and apparently was lucky to escape alive after Gardai intervened to save him from the lynch mob.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/convicted-paedophile-anthony-luckwill-hiding-7965255

Also, the Paedophile rapist Danny Ward has, on numerous occasions, been tracked in the streets and subjected to black eyes, bloody noses and beatings.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/child-rapist-danny-ward-tracked-6104697

Generally I don't support vigilante street justice and whatever about other criminals, I would support the punishment beating of paedophile suspects. They have no-one to blame but themselves and news of beatings helps to spread public awareness of these people.

What happens in those african lynching videos on LiveLeak is too good for anyone accused of paedophilia.

end of the road · 26-08-2016 02:30PM

starshine1234 wrote: »

How can you possibly know that?
How can you know what their motivations were?
Again, why are you making things up?
Unless you are one of the vigilantes you cannot know why they did it?
Were you one of the vigilantes?

i'm not making anything up. one can easily know the mentality of certain people.

starshine1234 wrote: »

Vigilantism is perfectly fine when you live in a country like Ireland, where serious crimes are ignored, and serious criminals aren't punished.

no, no it isn't.

starshine1234 wrote: »

Only a coward would accept this situation.

no just a proper law abiding citizen.

starshine1234 wrote: »

Ireland is full of big talkers who complain about everything but who do nothing to change anything.

i agree but better that then being a violent thug.

starshine1234 wrote: »

Taking revenge is acceptable as punishment is a purpose of the criminal justice system. If the criminal justice system fails to act then someone else can step in to take over the states role.

no, they can't. only the state has the power to punish criminals. anyone else who "steps in" is a threat to the state also and must be locked up to prevent them from further criminality.

starshine1234 wrote: »

It's the same as other charities. Who solve the states education problems, or solve the states health problems, or homeless problems. We need a charity who will take over the states role in punishing criminals. So, in summary, vigilantes should be respected for the valuable social role they play.

comparing violent thugs to charities. well done. vigilantes don't play any valuable roll to society.

Letree · 26-08-2016 02:43PM

I would like to see a secret police taking out the scumbags. They could be used against the gangland criminals, the roaming robber gangs etc.

Ethics of beating the ****e outta criminals.

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