Ethics of beating the ****e outta criminals.

livedadream

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/one-of-irelands-mostfeared-predators-is-beaten-up-in-vigilante-attack-34991008.html

One of Ireland's most-feared predators is beaten up in vigilante attack

is it wrong that i read this and was like, ah well...

Gardai are investigating the brutal assault on convicted kidnapper Philip Murphy (35), who was set upon after he left a shop in the Parkgate Street area of the city. He even ran behind the counter of a shop to try to escape the savage beating.

Clondalkin criminal Murphy has been under threat since he was released from Arbour Hill Prison in February where he served a 10-year sentence for kidnapping a woman in 2008.
The assault took place shortly after 6pm on Sunday when four men jumped out of a car and attacked Murphy as he walked on Montpelier Hill, close to the Phoenix Park.

.

i know i should be all, assault is wrong and he served his time but theres a small part of me saying, well like, maybe it was her brothers and i dont blame them.

General consensus?

Atlantic Dawn

livedadream wrote: »

Since his release from jail, Murphy has been arrested and questioned about the alleged attempted false imprisonment of two women in the Drumcondra area of Dublin.
It also previously emerged that he is a suspect for a failed abduction in Navan, Co Meath, in February.

While he may be a dodgy character one would have to ask why Gardaí would only question him in relation to the false imprisonment of two women in Drumcondra, if there was any real evidence there's no way he would be walking the streets with a previous criminal record like that.

Here you go, woman abducted and murdered, man confesses, family catch him and beat him to death, partially castrating him with a shovel...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/profiles/40-years-waiting-to-clear-his-name-199954.html

Sadly, 40 years later one of his co-accused had his conviction overturned as it was accepted that the "confessions" were not sound...

pickarooney

I can't say I care too much what happens to him but a group of lads getting their jollies out of assaulting a scummer is not exactly reassuring.

RustyNut

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

While he may be a dodgy character one would have to ask why Gardaí would only question him in relation to the false imprisonment of two women in Drumcondra, if there was any real evidence there's no way he would be walking the streets with a previous criminal record like that.

I think he is more limping the streets these days.

McDermotX

'Ethics of beating the ****e outta criminals.'


If it's good enough for Batman, it's good enough for me.

Pkiernan

10 year sentence from 2008 ....gotta love left wing liberal douchebags and their caring attitude towards prison time...

biko

I disagree with this beating, as with most beatings.

First of all he did his time.
Secondly it's far too easy to make mistakes about identity and some innocent person get "vigilante justice".

Lux23

It is clearly ethically wrong, but I wouldn't sit on a jury and send someone down for something like that.

livedadream

cant help but think that of the girls that brought the issue to the Gardai to look into might have had a quiet word with their brothers about it, seems the Gards didnt do much...

i dunno i agree with biko but theres something about it that i kinda feel it if was me, id go all Liam Neeson as well.

Deise Vu

It's hard to have sympathy for someone who had no qualms about putting someone through a terrifying ordeal for his own gratification but there is no way a civilised society can condone self appointed vigilantes administering their own version of justice like this. I don't know what it achieves other than driving this guy further underground and possibly giving him a revenge motive to add to his perverted impulsions. All vigilantes achieve is driving the guy out of their area to visit his charms in a totally unsuspecting new neighbourhood. Maybe they see that as a result.

That said, it is also unacceptable that he can walk the streets freely at a very young age. Unless people like him and Larry Murphy can absolutely demonstrate they have been rehabilitated (and I don't know how you can rehabilitate what appears to me to be a mental illness) then they should have every second of every day monitored via GPS systems and maybe signing on at Garda stations on a regular basis. If we don't, people are just going to take the law into their own hands in the manner described.

seamus

"An eye for an eye makes everyone blind".

While understandable, there's no ethical justification for revenge beatings or vigilante justice. Society defers justice and punishment to a central authority to ensure that all persons are treated equally and fairly when it comes to both the analysis of crimes and accusations, as well as the determination of an appropriate punishment.

One can say, "if it was your sister you'd feel the same", and you'd be right. But if I was on the other side of the coin and accused of the crime I wouldn't shrug and say, "ah sure who can blame them for being angry, I'll just take my beating like a good lad".

Snickers Man

Would you do it to Mr Hutch or Kinihan if you were with a bunch of mates and saw him on the street?

Acid test.

Mr. Incognito

Makes you no better than the Criminal.

Should the criminals family then retaliate?

That's what we are seeing with the Hutch Kinnehan feud.

You either have the rule of law or you have anarchy. Take a pick.

livedadream

Snickers Man wrote: »

Would you do it to Mr Hutch or Kinihan if you were with a bunch of mates and saw him on the street?

Acid test.

had he kidnapped and threatened my sister with a knife?

does he know my face/family or am i a stranger.

can i pay someone else to do it for me?

can i just accidentally on purpose knock him down or push him in front of a luas?

all depends really, while im totally on the side of justice and the courts vice and you do you time etc i dunno i cant say id take the high road all the time. im flawed, go figure.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Here you go, woman abducted and murdered, man confesses, family catch him and beat him to death, partially castrating him with a shovel...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/profiles/40-years-waiting-to-clear-his-name-199954.html

Sadly, 40 years later one of his co-accused had his conviction overturned as it was accepted that the "confessions" were not sound...

I'd reckon Philip Murphy is guilty as sin and a sick fncker too, it's wrong, in a civilised, democratic society to beat the sh1t out of such an individual but I'd have no sympathy for him.

My sister was bullied at work some years ago to the point of a breakdown, she's never quite recovered. I can fully understand how people take the violent option at times. It might not be "right" for Philip Murphy to feel terrified for his safety and be beaten to a pulp but he fully deserves it imo.

Snickers Man

livedadream wrote: »

had he kidnapped and threatened my sister with a knife?

So crimes against your women folk are the only crimes you recognise as being worthy of physical retribution? Whereas sending gangs of strung out junkies with heroin debts to bump off rivals, frequently getting the wrong person, are to be tolerated?

I believe sex attackers get a really hard time in prison from the other inmates. Morally superior, you know. I think that says it all: if you accept beating the crap out of sex attackers/harassers your moral compass is pointing the same way as some of the most ruthless hard men in the Joy.

livedadream wrote: »

does he know my face/family or am i a stranger.

can i pay someone else to do it for me?

can i just accidentally on purpose knock him down or push him in front of a luas?

Sounds like these three answers are each a long-winded way of saying "no" to my question.

The flying mouse

The law if the land is the law of the land.And were I have no sympathy for the man assaulted,It's up to the garda and courts to punish him,vigilante groups going around never ends good for society in thewhole picture.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

.............I think that says it all: if you accept beating the crap out of sex attackers/harassers your moral compass is pointing the same way as some of the most ruthless hard men in the Joy................

I'm struggling to reconcile is that a slight against my moral compass or a reassurance that not all folks in the Joy are bad.

In 2006 this chap got 11 years for rape
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/man-26-gets-11-year-sentence-for-rape-1.1013443

In 2008 he's attempting to abduct another lady
http://www.sundayworld.com/news/crimedesk/dangerous-predator-set-for-release-from-arbour-hill-this-month

I think the question regarding moral compasses should be directed at whoever (plural no doubt) sanctioned his release.

Snickers Man

Augeo wrote: »

I'm struggling to reconcile is that a slight against my moral compass or a reassurance that not all folks in the Joy or bad.

I was replying to livedadream, not you.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

I was replying to livedadream, not you.

No doubt, I share his view though.

livedadream

Snickers Man wrote: »

So crimes against your women folk are the only crimes you recognise as being worthy of physical retribution?

dont be ridiculous i said had he kidnapped my sister because thats what the thread is about, this guy kidnapped a girl, who was someones sister, he then had the bejesus kicked outta him by a group of lads, it has nothing to do with her being 'womenfolk'. stop trying to change the narrative to suit your own world view, we are discussing the article posted in the first thread, maybe read it and take a chill pill then rejoin the rest of us.

Snickers Man wrote: »

Sounds like these three answers are each a long-winded way of saying "no" to my question.

like i said i dont know what the answer is, i dont condone violence but I dont know if i was in the same situation that i would take the high road.

livedadream

Augeo wrote: »

No doubt, I share his view though.

*cough cough* her :rolleyes:

Lux23

Snickers Man wrote: »

Would you do it to Mr Hutch or Kinihan if you were with a bunch of mates and saw him on the street?

Acid test.

I would never do it anyway.

Wanderer78

We still have a long way to go in dealing with complex issues such as mental health problems, behavioural problems, personality disorders, learning disabilities etc etc!

sbsquarepants

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

While he may be a dodgy character one would have to ask why Gardaí would only question him in relation to the false imprisonment of two women in Drumcondra, if there was any real evidence there's no way he would be walking the streets with a previous criminal record like that.

Sounds like you're a new comer to the Irish criminal justice system!

Snickers Man wrote: »

So crimes against your women folk are the only crimes you recognise as being worthy of physical retribution? Whereas sending gangs of strung out junkies with heroin debts to bump off rivals, frequently getting the wrong person, are to be tolerated?

I believe sex attackers get a really hard time in prison from the other inmates. Morally superior, you know. I think that says it all: if you accept beating the crap out of sex attackers/harassers your moral compass is pointing the same way as some of the most ruthless hard men in the Joy.



Sounds like these three answers are each a long-winded way of saying "no" to my question.

I think you're missing the obvious point that if someone does something to your immediate family, you tend to be more upset about it than if their crimes effect a stranger or society as a whole.
Junkie shoots my brother - I want revenge.
Junkie shoots your brother - I'm happy enough for the courts to handle this one.
That's how most people think.

Rakish Paddy

Isn't vigilante justice a symptom of the failure of the courts system to deal with violent and/or sexual crime (check out some of the 'sentences' handed down by judges Martin Nolan and Gerald Keys, among others)? If there was no concurrent or suspended sentencing for crimes of this nature, and guilty parties were given appropriate sentences, I imagine people would feel less of an urge to take justice into their own hands.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Would you do it to Mr Hutch or Kinihan if you were with a bunch of mates and saw him on the street?

Acid test.

I would like to think if either of them raped/abducted my wife/sister/child I would stab them in the eye and through the brain with an appropriate instrument at my earliest convenience.

MilesMorales1

I don't give a **** what happens to this guy, but the point of our justice system is that we don't go round beating the **** out of people for crimes they committed, thats what the law and prison is for.


Course if it was my sister or daughter or whatever, I'd probably do the same thing. But you can't condone vigilantism.

ChikiChiki

biko wrote: »

I disagree with this beating, as with most beatings.

First of all he did his time.
Secondly it's far too easy to make mistakes about identity and some innocent person get "vigilante justice".

But he didn't do his time. He got a 10 yr sentence in 2008 and is out walking the streets.

sbsquarepants

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

Course if it was my sister or daughter or whatever, I'd probably do the same thing. But you can't condone vigilantism.

Surely you just did?

People need to get of their high horses - this guy is scum, he deserves everything he gets and a lot more besides. It's not like he's going to wake up tomorrow and learn the error of his ways, become a campaigner for womens rights or some such bollox.
He'll only stop being a danger when he's dead - and the sooner the better that's the case if you ask me.

biko

biko wrote: »

.................
Secondly it's far too easy to make mistakes about identity and some innocent person get "vigilante justice".

It's not really to be fair.

Wanderer78

ChikiChiki wrote:

But he didn't do his time. He got a 10 yr sentence in 2008 and is out walking the streets.

So where's the blame that he's walking the streets?

seamus

ChikiChiki wrote: »

But he didn't do his time. He got a 10 yr sentence in 2008 and is out walking the streets.

Actually he did. Like everyone else sent to prison he is automatically entitled to remission on the last quarter of his sentence.

Noveight

If a criminal is caught in the act of stealing a car or breaking in to a home, then they're fair game until the Gardaí arrive imo.

livedadream

sbsquarepants wrote: »

He'll only stop being a danger when he's dead - and the sooner the better that's the case if you ask me.

not your decision to make though. we dont have the death penalty in Ireland. or even life long sentences.

what catches me is, yes i have no doubt like Augeo that if it happened my sister i would be finding the most painless ways to castrate the guy.

but then again

i can also argue that I would need to trust the system, and i do trust it to a degree, i dunno its one of those things, i dont think you can even know until your in that situation.


*hope i never am though...obvs.

RustyNut

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

I don't give a **** what happens to this guy, but the point of our justice system is that we don't go round beating the **** out of people for crimes they committed, thats what the law and prison is for.


Course if it was my sister or daughter or whatever, I'd probably do the same thing. But you can't condone vigilantism.

Sometimes law and justice are not the same thing.

MilesMorales1

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Surely you just did?

People need to get of their high horses - this guy is scum, he deserves everything he gets and a lot more besides. It's not like he's going to wake up tomorrow and learn the error of his ways, become a campaigner for womens rights or some such bollox.
He'll only stop being a danger when he's dead - and the sooner the better that's the case if you ask me.

No I'm saying I'd lose my rag at the possibility of this scumbag hurting someone I love, and I'd potentially smash his head in. Thats not right of course, I'd be guilty of assault and of breaching my personal ethics or whatever. But in those sorts of situations, I would doubtless be quite enraged.

El_Duderino 09

biko wrote:

First of all he did his time. Secondly it's far too easy to make mistakes about identity and some innocent person get "vigilante justice".

There was the classic case of the paediatrician who had his office ransacked by a mob of morons because they can't read.

As much as this might satisfy the bloodlust of a few people, would those same people prefer to be judged by someone who can read and write rather than the mob?

livedadream

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There was the classic case of the paediatrician who had his office ransacked by a mob of morons because they can't read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1353904/Paediatrician-attack-People-dont-want-no-paedophiles-here.html

true story.

RustyNut

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There was the classic case of the paediatrician who had his office ransacked by a mob of morons because they can't read.

As much as this might satisfy the bloodlust of a few people, would those same people prefer to be judged by someone who can read and write rather than the mob?

We dont know the details in this case but I think there is a difference between "the mob" getting their pitchforks and going after "them uns" and someone seeking revenge/justice after a family member has been hurt.

Drumpot

Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society.

I don't condone the pathetic justice system that has had huge negative effects on my family.

If people think the moral of the story is that vigilantism is bad they are just as bad as the system that in many cases leaves victims in fear of their lives or that justice wasn't served. The moral of the story is that when victims or their families feel aggrieved they can't rely on the state to stand up to the plate.

Drumpot

Drumpot wrote: »

Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society...........

Sex offenders inflict terror, fear on their victims and of course the heinous crime itself.

These pr1cks thrive on the justice system in Ireland, if they are caught, charged & sentanced they get 5/7 years or less and serve something ridiculously low in most cases.

These lads as well as playing the numbers game on getting caught know that more often than not they won't get battered to a pulp by friends/relations of their victim(s) as people toe the line and also feel they have something to lose.

Everyone of these pr1cks that get's some vigilante attention deserves less sympathy than roadkilled rodents.

endacl

Pkiernan wrote: »

10 year sentence from 2008 ....gotta love left wing liberal douchebags and their caring attitude towards prison time...

Have you always used that kind of phraseology? It make you sound stupid.

There's a side of the Atlantic where that kind of over simplistic, reductionist, reactionary, binary anti-thinking works. Luckily, it's not this side.

El_Duderino 09

RustyNut wrote:

We dont know the details in this case but I think there is a difference between "the mob" getting their pitchforks and going after "them uns" and someone seeking revenge/justice after a family member has been hurt.

You might see a big distinction but I think you're splitting hairs.

In both cases you're talking about condoning a bunch of people who are untrained in the law, meting out punishment. All it takes is someone to convince a mob that they or their family has been wronged and hey-presto, mob justice.

I think the current system isn't great but it's better than what you're proposing

andekwarhola

If he was the right person, I'm happy enough he got battered but quite often, the source of the identification is some dimwit on social media. The possibility of things going wrong are pretty high.

Drumpot

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might see a big distinction but I think you're splitting hairs.

In both cases you're talking about condoning a bunch of people who are untrained in the law, meting out punishment. All it takes is someone to convince a mob that they or their family has been wronged and hey-presto, mob justice.

I think the current system isn't great but it's better than what you're proposing

People revert to radical solutions/alternatives when they feel let down by the system or marginalized.

Do you think its more important to talk about how its wrong to revert to vigilantism or that it would be more productive to talk about reforming the legal system so victims feel like they get justice? Perhaps turning the tables and making the system more ruthless in favor of the victims of crimes?

Perhaps making it less easy for people with huge amounts of money (like banks) to get off because they can buy their way out of trouble?

What's ironic is that people (myself included at times) mock the "stupidity" of those wanting change as if its about intelligence. Brexit, Trump, Sarah Palin. Yes, the solution to huge numbers of people wanting change and feeling like they have no voice is to mock them. And the cycle continues with zero progression on the major issue - That the justice system is more lenient on criminals then it is on protecting its citizens.

mzungu

I think longer jail time for these vermin would be a better solution. Beating the crap out of random people brings its own problems. A bit like that thread on the 'shoot to kill' policy of drug dealers in the Philippines, these things only ever end in disaster and used as an excuse to settle grudges that are most likely not related to any crime.

Johngoose

The only thing about this guy is that he is 100% a dispicable human being,there is no question of his innocence.He diserves to get a beating and to leave his area.The locals are only protecting women in their area.I know it might drive him into other areas,but we should be able to check up online what convicted sex attackers are in our areas, like in other countries.

Johngoose

Just saw a pop up ad for The Purge on this thread.Lol!;-)

I have to say if it was my sister/wife/girlfriend or any immediate family member that I quite honestly would organise and administer an awful hiding for the attacker.

Maybe that's wrong but in my book it would be justified completely.