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Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

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    #182
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    They both have the same belief systems bar national pride. The likes of Murphy, Corbyn etc despise their own countries and their own people, The National Socialist loves their country a bit too much. Economically They are the exact same. They are both essentially undemocratic too. They dont care about common concensus, they will just do whatever they feel is best.

    We get way too wrapped up in the left and right thing.

    Based on?

    A lot of people hate things their countries did that doesn't mean they hate their countries.

    A lot of Americans are ashamed of the US role in Vietnam & Iraq
    A lot of Brits are ashamed of their imperial past
    A lot of Germans are ashamed of WW2
    A lot of Irish are ashamed of the clerical abuse that went on for decades and the state cover ups etc...

    If anything it means they want to improve their countries and people.


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    #183
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    karma_ wrote: »
    They are diametrically opposed ideologies, one based on internationalism and the other based on nationalism. For fúcks sake, it's the first word in the title of 'National' socialism.

    One of the major issues that Left-Fascists/Socialists raise is globalisation. They are vehemently opposed to Globalisation. Similarly to National Socialism of where they want to protect local industry.


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    #184
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    One of the major issues that Left-Fascists/Socialists raise is globalisation. They are vehemently opposed to Globalisation. Similarly to National Socialism of where they want to protect local industry.
    Also, they both have eyebrows and buttholes.


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    #185
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    karma_ wrote: »
    They are diametrically opposed ideologies, one based on internationalism and the other based on nationalism. For fúcks sake, it's the first word in the title of 'National' socialism.

    And also one of the main aspects of National socialism is racial superiority which is the exact opposite to real democratic socialism which views all people from whatever background as equal to each other.

    Fascism & Socialism could not be more different to each other.

    Notice how during the cold war the US backed fascist regimes over socialist ones. Like in Chile were they helped overthrow socialist president Allende in place of the brutal general fascist Pinochet


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    #186
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,722 ✭✭✭✭josip


    BalcombeSt4 wrote: »
    Notice how during the cold war the US backed fascist regimes over socialist ones. Like in Chile were they helped overthrow socialist president Allende in place of the brutal general fascist Pinochet

    That's just because Facism is in favour of private enterprise and often supports large corporations rather than because of any ideological principles.
    Important to remember here that US domestic and foreign policy is effectively controlled by the large US corporations and that the US shouldn't be viewed as the bastion of democracy, but that's a topic for another thread.
    (Sent from my worker's apartment in Jugoland in case anyone has any questions on what's it's like to currently live in an a previous communist/socialist Utopia)


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    #187
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    They both have the same belief systems bar national pride. The likes of Murphy, Corbyn etc despise their own countries and their own people, The National Socialist loves their country a bit too much. Economically They are the exact same. They are both essentially undemocratic too. They dont care about common concensus, they will just do whatever they feel is best.

    We get way too wrapped up in the left and right thing.

    No, you don't get it, the Nazi's were right wing because they were bad and they had concentration camps, persecuted minorities and killed millions of people, which good left wing communist state have never done.......


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    #188
    Lux23
    Registered Users Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    No, they didn't have brands and things.


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    #189
    Zxclnic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    One of the major issues that Left-Fascists/Socialists raise is globalisation. They are vehemently opposed to Globalisation. Similarly to National Socialism of where they want to protect local industry.

    Goodness me you're still very confused.

    www.britannica.com/event/National-Socialism

    www.britannica.com/topic/socialism


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    #190
    Wigglepuppy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭Wigglepuppy


    Bit of a jump to say Murphy and Corbyn despise their country's people. In the case of Murphy he still has great time for Irish people so long as they're working-class or agree with him if not working-class. :)

    Not sure national socialists loved their country's people.


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    #191
    Oops69
    Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Oops69


    Absolutley , I'd have the Six bedroom apartment in Moscow , The private department store with western goods and the dacha on the black sea and fcuk the rest of yez


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    #192
    BalcombeSt4
    Registered Users Posts: 1,792 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    josip wrote: »
    That's just because Facism is in favour of private enterprise and often supports large corporations rather than because of any ideological principles.
    Important to remember here that US domestic and foreign policy is effectively controlled by the large US corporations and that the US shouldn't be viewed as the bastion of democracy, but that's a topic for another thread.
    (Sent from my worker's apartment in Jugoland in case anyone has any questions on what's it's like to currently live in an a previous communist/socialist Utopia)

    Either should Marxist-Leninist states be viewed as bastions of democracy. They called themselves communists but they also called themselves democrats as well.

    Why do you think the West & Marxist-Leninist states both called what was going on in Russia, China, Cuba etc... as socialism? The West wanted to link socialism with the brutal nature of the Rsussian state which was brutal before the revolution, Russia wanted tto get credit for creating what they described as socialism among the international working class and it's very hard to break out of the worlds 2 major propaganda machines when they agree, they agreed for opposite reasons but they agreed that the destruction of socialism was socialism.

    I'm not arguing former Marxist-Leninist states didn't have a lot in common with fascism because they did I'm arguing they were not real socialist states. Marxism-Leninism had nothing to do with real socialism and was critisized by people like Rosa Luxemborg & Antoine Pannekoek cause they viewed Leninism as as this oppurtunistic vangaurdism which whipped the population up into the sort of society they wanted that underminded real socialism.

    As soon as Lenin took power the first things he got rid of were the worker controlled soviets that were formed during the course of popular strong.

    Again the core of socialism is workers control the means of production, this was not true in Fascist or Leninist states.


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    #193
    The guy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭The guy


    I'd love to live in Venezuela, tons of bare necessities available. :P


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    #194
    Icemancometh
    Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Icemancometh


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    You're Irish, right?

    The irony of an Irishman saying such an outlandish thing. That arrogant belief in the free hand of the market killed one million of our ancestors in the 19th century, and had even more drastic consequences in other areas of the Commonwealth. Lord Lytton's haughty refusal to intervene in the Indian Famine of 1876 killed 8 million people; he wanted to let the market solve the problem.

    Irish fawning at the invisible God of the market is, to my mind, as grotesque as seeing a Jew put on the garb of the Schutzstaffel.

    From the time of the Industrial Revolution, to the Great Recession, the Irish have more reasons than most peoples of the world to resent and distrust unregulated, free market codology.

    I agree. But enough about liberal democracy. What about communism?

    The Corn Laws played a huge role in the famine; hardly an arrogant belief in the free market to put tariffs on imported food.


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    #195
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Icemancometh wrote: »
    The Corn Laws played a huge role in the famine; hardly an arrogant belief in the free market to put tariffs on imported food.
    The Corn Laws are something of a red herring, for many reasons. It suffices to say that sail and steam were not what what they were to become in the late 19th century, and grain prices remained as high as ever long after repeal of the Corn Laws. Irish grain was always attractive to British urban populations, it was always going to be the most desirable grain for British merchants, and the Irish peasantry could never have competed*.

    *Bear in mind that, even at the peak of the Famine the British Government insisted that famine-relief grain never be sold below market rates.

    Anyway, I don't want to pursue a tangent, since the thread is interesting enough; I just thought it was a particularly stupid remark for someone to make on an Irish message board.
    The guy wrote: »
    I'd love to live in Venezuela, tons of bare necessities available. :P
    I had lunch with a Venezuelan colleague one day. The bureaucracy and the shortages he described would almost be comic if they weren't so serious. I asked him what life is like in Venezuela under Maduro. His answer was, "if you work two jobs, and can afford private health insurance, private education, and make enough money to buy groceries, you can have a nice life!" Some socialism!

    In fairness, Venezuela doesn't actually claim to be a communist state; it's a social democracy basketcase.


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    #196
    The Truth Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭The Truth Man


    Plenty of Communist politicians in this country, PBP/AAA and Sinn Fein to name but 2 parties. If those guys ever get in charge we will see the full fruits of Communism!


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    #197
    Zxclnic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Zxclnic


    The Truth Man wrote: »
    Plenty of Communist politicians in this country, PBP/AAA and Sinn Fein to name but 2 parties. If those guys ever get in charge we will see the full fruits of Communism!

    None of the above three parties (NOT two) are Communist.

    The AAA and indeed PBP are unashamedly left-wing socialist parties.
    I'll let others here say where Sinn Fein stand within the left/right spectrum, depending on who you're listening to it's sometimes hard to tell.
    IMO they are principally a nationalist party, though obviously there are plenty of Sinn Fèin supporters on these boards who'll put you straight.
    But Chris Andrews TD a communist?...hardly.


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    #198
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    NO.


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    #199
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    The Truth Man wrote: »

    To claim Sinn Fein are anything other than Far Left or Left at minimum is nonsensical.

    Hold on, you claimed they were communist a minute ago...Does a poster who has the hubris to have the word 'Truth' in his username really not know the difference? That's my slice of irony sorted for the day.

    The most shocking thing about this thread is the amount of posters who actually have no clue about what they are talking about yet still nail their colours to a political mast they presumably don't even understand. I'm also more than shocked at a number of posters whose opinions I always respected previously.


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    #200
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    The Truth Man wrote: »
    Nice to see the Shinnerbots and other bottom feeders assembling quickly today. Of course they don't have jobs to go to, so cheerleading online passes the time now their Fraudster "Homeless" Activist has been exposed for everyone to see!

    Well played Comrade!

    For all intents and purposes this wall of text is gibberish, there is absolutely zero substance in your post and there certainly is no valid points as pertains to the conversation ongoing.


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    #201
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just to talk about Communism again, what are people's opinions on propaganda?

    We all know that nominally-Communist states have in the past disseminated propaganda among their own people, against the capitalists.

    Do you believe that propaganda is limited to Communism, or even, all regimes except our own Capitalist regimes?

    Genuine question.

    Do people think they have an untainted awareness of 'the free world' as against the supposedly criminal despotisms of communism?

    Is your opposition to communism real and well-considered, or just a knee-jerk reaction to the criticisms you hear of communism by self-titled captains of industry and political leaders who would lose under communism?

    How many people know what communism is?


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    #202
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Just to talk about Communism again, what are people's opinions on propaganda?

    It's pretty powerful stuff. Never underestimate peoples ability to believe something completely unrealistic and yet if it's repeated enough times... they do.

    Oh, I've seen Chinese people complain about the amount of propaganda they're exposed to and to be etremely dismissive of various government initiatives. They're often very proud of their independent thinking.... and yet... talk about Tibet and you'll see their eyes shift. And you do hear the same propaganda repeated again and again. You can talk reasonably about Taiwan to a certain extent, but even mention to Nationalist government as being the last legal government of China, and boom, those eyes shift again.

    Propaganda is invasive. It just gets under their skin and sticks.
    We all know that nominally-Communist states have in the past disseminated propaganda among their own people, against the capitalists.

    More like, against everyone. Most Asian peoples believe themselves to be superior to othe races. Think the Aryan race. That kind of thing. It's common to find propaganda everywhere in Aisa. But then again, I think the West is full of it too.
    Do you believe that propaganda is limited to Communism, or even, all regimes except our own Capitalist regimes?

    Genuine question.

    Propaganda has been used across all countries forever. It's just that the extreme political systems are more obvious about it. But then all you need to do is look at the US perception of democracy. It's certainly not the same as ours... and yet, they've spread it worldwide. Think the Monroe Doctrine. Or the land of the Brave. bla bla bla.

    We just tend to accept it because we share a similar culture, and we hope they'll protect us. But it's the same crap. It's still about control.
    Is your opposition to communism real and well-considered, or just a knee-jerk reaction to the criticisms you hear of communism by self-titled captains of industry and political leaders who would lose under communism?

    I've lived in Russia and China (yeah, I know many consider it maoism). I don't think of it in terms of workers rights and such. I consider it in terms of how it affects a nation and it's people (directly). When I think of economics, I would look to socialism. But. then again, I'm not that into Political science or economics. I'm a business major.
    How many people know what communism is?

    Depends on whether you're a purist, or whether you consider the combination of capitalism and communism posssible... and still be communism.

    But then I can't think of any countries that are still "communist" (soviet union style)


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    #203
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    A communist State? Sure - if it was run to proper communist ideals. I've lived in large communes before and anarchst-ideal scenarios, and they work - if run according to the ideals of the ideology. I'm not sure it could work on a large-scale though. Consensus is difficult to achieve with millions of people.

    If we're going to have a oppressive fear-mongering propaganda-run police State, then I'd rather the one we have today (apart form the US one) but I don't consider any of them to be an political ethos.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #204
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Just to talk about Communism again, what are people's opinions on propaganda?

    We all know that nominally-Communist states have in the past disseminated propaganda among their own people, against the capitalists.

    Do you believe that propaganda is limited to Communism, or even, all regimes except our own Capitalist regimes?

    Genuine question.

    Do people think they have an untainted awareness of 'the free world' as against the supposedly criminal despotisms of communism?

    Is your opposition to communism real and well-considered, or just a knee-jerk reaction to the criticisms you hear of communism by self-titled captains of industry and political leaders who would lose under communism?

    How many people know what communism is?

    I think Communist propaganda has a lot to learn from Capitalist propaganda. In general, propaganda plays a huge role in most states. It comes in handy for stuff like patriotism, instilling a national identity, getting people to sign up for the army, getting people to buy expensive stuff they really don't need etc. Propaganda is everywhere, not just in Communist states, and I highly doubt anybody believes otherwise.


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    #205
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Personally I think the US and hollywood are/were the masters of propaganda. WW2 movies/documentaries especially, although cowboy movies/documentaries/media come a close second. Totally set a tone across the western world.


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    #206
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    A communist State? Sure - if it was run to proper communist ideals. I've lived in large communes before and anarchst-ideal scenarios, and they work - if run according to the ideals of the ideology. I'm not sure it could work on a large-scale though. Consensus is difficult to achieve with millions of people.

    If we're going to have a oppressive fear-mongering propaganda-run police State, then I'd rather the one we have today (apart form the US one) but I don't consider any of them to be an political ethos.

    ...........where were these communes?


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    #207
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,241 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    cursai wrote: »
    ...........where were these communes?

    Isreal, Demark and Germany.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #208
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Isreal, Demark and Germany.

    Not sure about the Israel one. But ill try out Denmark and Germany. :)


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    #209
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Personally I think the US and hollywood are/were the masters of propaganda. WW2 movies/documentaries especially, although cowboy movies/documentaries/media come a close second. Totally set a tone across the western world.

    Aye, pretty much influenced current news media to the point where it is now another form of entertainment (in the US mostly, but elsewhere too) for the masses. There is no question, the west are the masters of propoganda. I think we can thank Edward Bernays for that.


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    #210
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mzungu wrote: »
    Aye, pretty much influenced current news media to the point where it is now another form of entertainment (in the US mostly, but elsewhere too) for the masses. There is no question, the west are the masters of propoganda. I think we can thank Edward Bernays for that.

    Hmm... I'm not sure though is there a difference between propaganda and indoctrination? hollywood/US Govt used to be very good but Asian governments going back thousands of years have indoctrinated whole populations to believe in the rightness of, well, a lower class (which is the majority of the population) who serves the state. Sure, communist revolutions were supposed to remove this, but Mao essentially added to it.. and it still exists today almost with support of the people themselves.


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    #211
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,307 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hmm... I'm not sure though is there a difference between propaganda and indoctrination?

    Two sides of the same coin though, when it comes down to it. One twists the facts to create a 'truth' to further the cause, then forcing that 'truth' by various means upon somebody so it becomes unquestioning.
    hollywood/US Govt used to be very good but Asian governments going back thousands of years have indoctrinated whole populations to believe in the rightness of, well, a lower class (which is the majority of the population) who serves the state. Sure, communist revolutions were supposed to remove this, but Mao essentially added to it.. and it still exists today almost with support of the people themselves.

    Aye, it would be interesting to find out how many actually buy into it.


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