Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

Wiseman Drinkwater

Well? I'm sitting here in a hotel room in England playing Civilization 5. I am hoping to conquer a conference tomorrow using diplomacy, but this evening I'm finding going for a communist military victory in the game is working out just fine. It got me thinking about communism as an idea. It was a major political ideology in the 20th century. A rising of the workers against the elite. Some of it didn't work out, but why not? And would you like to have lived under a communist leadership? Are there any communists still around in Ireland?

The_Kew_Tour

No, be too PC

failinis

"Some of it didn't work out."

Can anyone give a solid example of a large enough country that it did work fine with no detriment to the majority of the population?

Hercule Poirot

The countries that we call Communist weren't actually practicing the true Communist ideology, rather the Communist ideology was used a tool to enforce a tyrannical regime - if you were offering me the chance to live in a true Marxist, Communist country then yes I would give it a go but Lenin, Mao and Stalin can go f**k themselves

Ulysses Gaze

Wiseman Drinkwater wrote: »

Well? I'm sitting here in a hotel room in England playing Civilization 5. I am hoping to conquer a conference tomorrow using diplomacy, but this evening I'm finding going for a communist military victory in the game is working out just fine. It got me thinking about communism as an idea. It was a major political ideology in the 20th century. A rising of the workers against the elite. Some of it didn't work out, but why not? And would you like to have lived under a communist leadership? Are there any communists still around in Ireland?

Where did it ever work?

Fleawuss

No. I always think of them as cold, grey, boring, with sad people trudging through slush watched by pig eyed secret policemen. And cabbage. People gnawing on cabbage. So no.

Your Face

No, I like freedom and the general lack of summary execution.

BoJack Horseman

Nah..... I like to own stuff.

Armchair Andy

I just want to drink my coffee driving the car in peace and quiet.

After that the world can go fvck itself.

Ulysses Gaze

Wigglepuppy

Bloody hell no. Only this evening actually, I was watching Reeling In The Years (again) and it was 1980 - one of the items featured was the Solidarność (Solidarity) organisation in Poland, then behind the Iron Curtain, a trade union movement in opposition to the government. Now if a trade union movement opposes a communist regime, then something is seriously up.

A system where absolutely everyone is in the exact same circumstances can only be enforced harshly, with no possibility of any kind of individual freedom.

Now I wouldn't agree either with a society offering virtually no state supports and everyone, no matter what circumstances, having to fend for themselves, but there is a happy medium.

dresden8

I visited the DDR museum in Berlin.

The typical communist apartment was larger than free market Dublin c. 1947 to c. 2016.

RobertKK

No.

Millions upon millions of people died from living in communist countries.
I am also not a big fan of concentration camps.
I like my freedom so that is another no to wanting to live in a communist country.

Pac1Man

Communism removes the incentive to be innovative. If the whole world went commy, civilization would become stagnant.

By the way OP, never trust Ghandi.

The Backwards Man

I come from a long line of smugglers and black marketeers, so yeah, be grand.

seamus

Communism was always doomed to failure because it's an ideology that disregards natural human traits and biases.

When everyone understands and wants communism, it will work. Great in small groups of 20 people, but as a system of government, a complete disaster.

Capitalist socialism is far superior because it takes account of both the human requirement to resource hoard/guard while also exploiting the individual sense of community and caring.

Aongus Von Bismarck

I'm living and working in Frankfurt at the moment. Quite a few of my colleagues would have grown up living in East Germany. It sounds like an appalling place to have grown up. Even worse than rural East Galway. At least we had the Commodore 64 and no threat of being wrenched out of school because Dad spoke ill about the Government over tea break.

Even today you can spot the former East German in the wider German society. It's especially true if they have made some money. A propensity towards vulgar looking Swiss watches set with diamonds and gold, low end Italian supercars, a second home in the French riviera.

Yurt2

East Germany probably made the best fist out of it. Was still a sh*tbox.

BoJack Horseman

The worlds greatest spy isn't a fan of the Soviet union.

Wiseman Drinkwater

Wiseman Drinkwater wrote: »

Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

I've lived in China for the last 7 years. Communist women are sexy. Enough said.

philstar

Ireland of the 1980's was pretty close to a communist country

backward dismal kip dominated by the RC church

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Communism was always doomed to failure because it's an ideology that disregards natural human traits and biases.

When everyone understands and wants communism, it will work. Great in small groups of 20 people, but as a system of government, a complete disaster.

Capitalist socialism is far superior because it takes account of both the human requirement to resource hoard/guard while also exploiting the individual sense of community and caring.

Communism tends to work for the first two decades after the "revolution" because the average person is filled with the right "spirit of the worker". Then corruption sets in, they dabble with stupid economic policies, have a few famines, and then the economy itself buckles. The "people" lose trust or belief in the leadership and then... bleh!

Modern communism isn't the same as what happened before. It's more of a capitalist police state.

Wigglepuppy

philstar wrote: »

Ireland of the 1980's was pretty close to a communist country

backward dismal kip dominated by the RC church

I dunno. It certainly seems to have been as dreary in ways, and far less plentiful, but it was not close to communist economically, and certainly not politically.

There was a pretty staunch capitalist in power for much of the decade, people had varying incomes and worked for private enterprises, and people could criticise the government, leave and re-enter the country when they pleased, and did not have to be on a waiting list for years for e.g. a TV and could set up their own business and buy whatever stuff they wanted, even if they did not have as much money as people have today.

Church domination sure - but churches ain't allowed in communist countries!

mzungu

If it was life or death, then at a BIG push, Tito's Yugoslavia. Although it's an utterly crap choice no matter where you go, some are just slightly better than the others.

I certainly wouldn't have chosen to live in any of them though.

B.A._Baracus

I'll be the first to admit I haven't educated myself a lot of the whole communist thing but is'nt it something that is meant to work "well" on paper but in actual fact it turns out to be holding people down.... or am I nuts?

Aongus Von Bismarck

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

The countries that we call Communist weren't actually practicing the true Communist ideology, rather the Communist ideology was used a tool to enforce a tyrannical regime - if you were offering me the chance to live in a true Marxist, Communist country then yes I would give it a go but Lenin, Mao and Stalin can go f**k themselves

I think this is utter tosh. My reading of 20th century history is relatively rudimentary, but I remember reading that there were over 80 attempts throughout the world to impose a communist regime during that time.

The best you could hope for if you were a poor misfortunate who lived in one of those countries was suspicion and stagnation. The worst was state imposed death.

It didn't work out. Marxism is as strange an idea as homeopathy and astrology. It appeals without having any grounding in science or logic. And its proponents are blinded by a belief that borders on the puritan.

JupiterKid

No, absolutely not.

I value my freedom of expression and civil liberties, which are non existent in an oppressive Communist society.

The thing that bugs me about communism is that it promotes ignorance. The communist governments "educate" (indoctrinate, propaganda etc) to make their people stupid. Naturally enough so that they won't question the government, but still its annoying, because people just go along with it.

Having conversations with Chinese people about Japan, Tibet, Taiwan etc is like talking to a tape-recorder. They list the same reasons (told to them by their teachers or government reports) and can't argue beyond them, or even argue properly to support their points. Instead, it comes down to we are right and everything anyone else says is lies. American lies.

And then the massive hero worhship for incredibly flawed people. Mao was a creepo (he liked very young girls) but his picture is still in most restaraunts and in many peoples homes. It's so weird.

Thankfully there are a small number of intelligent people remaining but you'll still see the same indoctrination in them in certain ways.

endacl

failinis wrote: »

"Some of it didn't work out."

Can anyone give a solid example of a large enough country that it did work fine with no detriment to the majority of the population?

Antarctica? No industry. No commerce. Permanent population sharing freely?

Edit: The modern world is making inroads though...
http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/02/tinder-makes-its-first-match-in-antarctica.html

511

Deleted User wrote: »

I've lived in China for the last 7 years. Communist women are sexy. Enough said.

China was never communist. It was a brand of socialism called Maoism, but they started leaning towards capitalism since 1978, hence the strong economic growth for the last 40 years. A true communist has never existed.

The only reason why the Soviet Union boomed after World War 2 was because their determination to better than America during the Cold War.

Billy86

Communist? No.

A higher degree of socialism in a social democracy? You betcha!

Wigglepuppy

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

I'll be the first to admit I haven't educated myself a lot of the whole communist thing but is'nt it something that is meant to work "well" on paper but in actual fact it turns out to be holding people down.... or am I nuts?

You are nuts! :eek:

Nah that is how it could be described in some cases anyway. In other cases it was not intended for the greater good.

511

511 wrote: »

China was never communist.

Had most of the same characteristics as communism. Communism spread and each country it spread to, the national leadership changed it to suit their culture.

So... then I guess if we're strictly only talking about communism... you can only talk about members of the former Soviet Union.

Gen.Zhukov

Communism and democracy are both bollocks.

Communism......We're all going to live the same way. Waring the same type of clothes, eating the same type of food, living the same way, right....
i.e, you are going to do the above while we party like fcuk.

Democracy......You will democratically vote us into power and then we will do pretty much what we like, because you voted us in and we're going to party like fcuk.

Kat1170

Wouldn't be too bad if you happened to be Joe Stalin I suppose

Kat1170

Kat1170 wrote: »

Wouldn't be too bad if you happened to be Joe Stalin I suppose

Or the sole communist local leader of a small town or village in the middle of nowhere. Who's going to oppose you?

The_Mac

Idiots who support full communism always retort with "it's never been properly implemented". Want to know why? Because it can't be properly implemented you gombeen.

Billy86

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Bloody hell no. Only this evening actually, I was watching Reeling In The Years (again) and it was 1980 - one of the items featured was the Solidarność (Solidarity) organisation in Poland, then behind the Iron Curtain, a trade union movement in opposition to the government. Now if a trade union movement opposes a communist regime, then something is seriously up.

A system where absolutely everyone is in the exact same circumstances can only be enforced harshly, with no possibility of any kind of individual freedom.

Now I wouldn't agree either with a society offering virtually no state supports and everyone, no matter what circumstances, having to fend for themselves, but there is a happy medium.

Not only that but a major flaw of communism is hiding in your second paragraph (and in the first Reagan joke posted above, re waiting on cars for 10 years)... If everyone basically makes the same money, has the same stuff, etc, then where is the motivation? Beyond wooing women with my impressive job title, why should I bother to strive to be the best that I can be when the end result is only going to be the same? And beyond that again, if nobody is striving for their full potential then how is society meant to progress (or even maintain its position) in almost all aspects of life, two very notable ones being finance and technology? It generates a complete lack of competition, which in turn leads to a lack of innovation or motivation, whereas with those two... Someone else would catch wind and offer you a car guaranteed in a matter of days.

Wigglepuppy

Billy86 wrote: »

Not only that but a major flaw of communism is hiding in your second paragraph (and in the first Reagan joke posted above, re waiting on cars for 10 years)... If everyone basically makes the same money, has the same stuff, etc, then where is the motivation? Beyond wooing women with my impressive job title, why should I bother to strive to be the best that I can be when the end result is only going to be the same? And beyond that again, if nobody is striving for their full potential then how is society meant to progress (or even maintain its position) in almost all aspects of life, two very notable ones being finance and technology? It generates a complete lack of competition, which in turn leads to a lack of innovation or motivation, whereas with those two... Someone else would catch wind and offer you a car guaranteed in a matter of days.

Absolutely. And are there really gonna be government jobs for absolutely everyone from cradle to grave? People have ended up starving to death under such regimes.

PARlance

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I think this is utter tosh. My reading of 20th century history is relatively rudimentary, but I remember reading that there were over 80 attempts throughout the world to impose a communist regime during that time.

The best you could hope for if you were a poor misfortunate who lived in one of those countries was suspicion and stagnation. The worst was state imposed death.

It didn't work out. Marxism is as strange an idea as homeopathy and astrology. It appeals without having any grounding in science or logic. And its proponents are blinded by a belief that borders on the puritan.

Was this rudimentary reading inspired by the need to educate that brother of yours?
I imagine his wardrobe contained a Guevara t-shirt or two, to accompany the bootleg jeans, a staple among many of his ilk?

foggy_lad

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Even today you can spot the former East German in the wider German society. It's especially true if they have made some money. A propensity towards vulgar looking Swiss watches set with diamonds and gold, low end Italian supercars, a second home in the French riviera.

A lot like the Irish during the noughties bertie boom years:eek:

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Nah..... I like to own stuff.

It's capitalism that denies people ownership rights. Most people don't own the land they till, the mines they dig, the forests they clear, the factories they assemble in, etc. Ownership is only for people with capital.

Arghus

I've heard the Chinese are a great bunch of lads.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Communism was always doomed to failure because it's an ideology that disregards natural human traits and biases.

When everyone understands and wants communism, it will work. Great in small groups of 20 people, but as a system of government, a complete disaster.

Capitalist socialism is far superior because it takes account of both the human requirement to resource hoard/guard while also exploiting the individual sense of community and caring.

I'd suggest you do some basic readings about communism before you try to debate it. There is no state and no market in communism.

Communism can only work on a large scale, it is an international workers movement. A reversion to a national boundary is a reversion of the proletarian movement as a whole.

Wigglepuppy

Deleted User wrote: »

It's capitalism that denies people ownership rights. Most people don't own the land they till, the mines they dig, the forests they clear, the factories they assemble in, etc. Ownership is only for people with capital.

Capitalism allows people to set up their own businesses though.

The correct answer to what way things should be run economically is slightly right of centre.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Not only that but a major flaw of communism is hiding in your second paragraph (and in the first Reagan joke posted above, re waiting on cars for 10 years)... If everyone basically makes the same money, has the same stuff, etc, then where is the motivation? Beyond wooing women with my impressive job title, why should I bother to strive to be the best that I can be when the end result is only going to be the same?

Why do people go to work now? Why did we ever work? Why did we start using tools to change and improve our environment instead of just sitting around eating bugs and grass? People didn't start to labour because they were getting a salary - labour is what makes us human. We work together collaboratively, and creatively, to meet our needs and to change the world around us. That is perverted under capitalism, you're forced to sell your labour to someone else to survive, and you lose control over one of the things that fundamentally makes you human.

And beyond that again, if nobody is striving for their full potential then how is society meant to progress (or even maintain its position) in almost all aspects of life, two very notable ones being finance and technology? It generates a complete lack of competition, which in turn leads to a lack of innovation or motivation, whereas with those two... Someone else would catch wind and offer you a car guaranteed in a matter of days.

http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism You might enjoy this article, written by Albert Einstein.

Incentives exist past monetary gain. We, as a society, must pass the obsession with materialistic incentives which is provided by capitalist indoctrination throughout our entire young, scholastic lives. In a communist society, the general welfare of the state (which is comprised of the proletariat) is of top priority and lived well. People do not struggle to survive and succeed their birth-given socio-economic status so much. Rather, the work is distributed to the strong, able, and appropriate, and the incentive to discover and invent is to leave a mark on mankind as extreme wealth is not the option for this mark. It persuades the individual to seek scholastic advancement and make scientific discoveries by removing the Capitalist-added incentive to simply gain money and buy extravagant things and act ostentatiously to gain fame/ recognition.

The idea is to pass the predatory phase of society and establish a more peaceful, academically-oriented society that champions general welfare and scientific/mathematic advancement as opposed to championing income inequality.

pragmatic1

No. I don't like the authoritarian anti-individual aspects.

Wiseman Drinkwater

Wiseman Drinkwater wrote: »

Would any of ye have liked to live in a communist country?

I thought according to Denis O'Brien back in 2003 Ireland was
"fast turning into a communist state"? so surely 13 years later we've all lived in a communist state?

Dr Turk Turkelton

Why in all this talk of communism is everyone referring to the demoralising grey sh1thole that is Eastern Europe?
If I was going to communist it would be lying on a Caribbean beach sipping a mojito and puffing on a big cigar ala Cuba.

WesternZulu

I've been to Cuba, the only ones sipping mojitos and puffing big cigars on the beach are the tourists.