The beginning of the end for taxi drivers

eeguy · 19-08-2016 05:24PM

motorfan wrote: »

So what of the people who have become obsolete due to progress?
How will they live, or their families?

I think the the people who have this attitude towards progress at all costs, never seem to suffer from the "progress" they envision.

Statements like "might have to cut welfare then" just sound pompous, and I do not think that it would be classed as progress.

It's an unfortunate part of life for the past 200 years. Technology progresses and industry's change.
They'll have to retrain, or move into some other related field which still requires their skills, or they'll be on welfare for the rest of their lives.
The worst thing we could do as a society is stagnate to save some jobs.

One of the previous posters mentioned choosing "human labour" over a robot. I think this will become a common saying over the next decades as some industries struggle to remain relevant.

BrokenArrows · 19-08-2016 05:29PM

iamtony wrote: »

What's the average wage in Moscow?

Average there seems to be relative because they dont have a realistic minimum wage which drags the average way way down. But i know people working there in ok office jobs on about €20,000 with 13% income tax. Public transport is about €0.40 pence a trip on bus and tube.

iamtony · 19-08-2016 05:36PM

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Average there seems to be relative because they dont have a realistic minimum wage which drags the average way way down. But i know people working there in ok office jobs on about €20,000 with 13% income tax. Public transport is about €0.40 pence a trip on bus and tube.

Sounds like the people you know are not on the average wage. If they can have taxis and buses for little or nothing I'm guessing these people, who(when compared to) in our society are probably earning the average wage, so the actual average is more than likely less and reflects the cost of public transport costs.
What kind of car was your UBER driver using? Any idea of its age?

iamtony · 19-08-2016 05:42PM

eeguy wrote: »

It's an unfortunate part of life for the past 200 years. Technology progresses and industry's change.
They'll have to retrain, or move into some other related field which still requires their skills, or they'll be on welfare for the rest of their lives.
The worst thing we could do as a society is stagnate to save some jobs.

One of the previous posters mentioned choosing "human labour" over a robot. I think this will become a common saying over the next decades as some industries struggle to remain relevant.

I remember my father saying he would never use the automatic scanners in a super market as that's someones job, he never did in fairness to him.

alb · 19-08-2016 05:52PM

This will probably change things in more ways than people are considering. For example you're imagining the same 5 seater taxi you have now except without a driver when in reality we may move to completely different vehicles. Maybe one or two seat vehicles become the most popular, or a four seater that looks more like a booth on a train with 2 facing 2 and table in between. Some possibilities to think about in the long term:

Car ownership dropping in all urban areas as people can order fit for purpose vehicles on demand, cheaply and with little delay. A move to more hiring and less ownership would have drastic effects on traffic, parking and where vehicles are when idle.

If most vehicles are hired on demand, there is no need for a multi purpose family car any more. There can be a wider range of vehciles designed to specifically hold 1...n passengers (or even no passengers for things like parcel/food delivery). You'll get the one you need when you request one. This can possibly make the majority of vehicles smaller, lighter, cheaper to build and run.

If it gets to a level where all or nearly all cars are autonomous, safety may no longer be such a high consideration in construction, again making cars lighter and cheaper. Maybe cars used only in urban areas would have a low maximum speed limit, ones designed to be used on motorways could be more robust.

Cars will be able to communicate with other cars, you may not need traffic lights at all if the cars can negotiate order at junctions between themselves. Cars may be able to pay other cars for priority at a junction or to overtake them or to get them to move to different parking spot or whatever.

They called cars horseless carriages at first because they were thinking of them only in terms of what had come before. I think eventually autonomous cars won't be anything like cars as we know them now.

eeguy · 19-08-2016 06:22PM

I like the idea of a one seat enclosed motorbike-like pod, with a small space for a bag or a case.
Perfect commuter vehicle for a single driver.

iamtony · 19-08-2016 06:29PM

alb wrote: »

This will probably change things in more ways than people are considering. For example you're imagining the same 5 seater taxi you have now except without a driver when in reality we may move to completely different vehicles. Maybe one or two seat vehicles become the most popular, or a four seater that looks more like a booth on a train with 2 facing 2 and table in between. Some possibilities to think about in the long term:

Car ownership dropping in all urban areas as people can order fit for purpose vehicles on demand, cheaply and with little delay. A move to more hiring and less ownership would have drastic effects on traffic, parking and where vehicles are when idle.

If most vehicles are hired on demand, there is no need for a multi purpose family car any more. There can be a wider range of vehciles designed to specifically hold 1...n passengers (or even no passengers for things like parcel/food delivery). You'll get the one you need when you request one. This can possibly make the majority of vehicles smaller, lighter, cheaper to build and run.

If it gets to a level where all or nearly all cars are autonomous, safety may no longer be such a high consideration in construction, again making cars lighter and cheaper. Maybe cars used only in urban areas would have a low maximum speed limit, ones designed to be used on motorways could be more robust.

Cars will be able to communicate with other cars, you may not need traffic lights at all if the cars can negotiate order at junctions between themselves. Cars may be able to pay other cars for priority at a junction or to overtake them or to get them to move to different parking spot or whatever.

They called cars horseless carriages at first because they were thinking of them only in terms of what had come before. I think eventually autonomous cars won't be anything like cars as we know them now.

this will also lead to a massive drop in car sales and then the collapse(almost collapse) of the car manufacturing industry in Germany and France leading to the worst recession the modern world has ever known. The gap between the UBER rich and the poor grows even more.
Then the people rise up against the machines, and then the cars decide they don't need us anymore and Herbie and Christine start running us all over.

eeguy · 19-08-2016 06:34PM

iamtony wrote: »

this will also lead to a massive drop in car sales and then the collapse(almost collapse) of the car manufacturing industry in Germany and France leading to the worst recession the modern world has ever known. The gap between the UBER rich and the poor grows even more.
Then the people rise up against the machines, and then the cars decide they don't need us anymore and Herbie and Christine start running us all over.

Depends on how things all work out. It's not going to happen overnight. Societal shifts like that will decades even in first world countries with money to invest. Though it also might open up huge Asian and African markets where car ownership is low offsetting potential losses.

Imagine a world where transport is so cheap everyone has access, and because everyone is a paying customer, infrastructure is built to support it.

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 06:47PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

The meter Importers keep a strict control on who they will even sell their updated programs to. There simply isn't the return to be made from attempting to rewrite a meter program (which is different for each meter manufacturer, and usually each meter model).
The tamper-proof seals are individually numbered and the Taxi regulator's Enforcement Officers have access to this database at their fingertips.
A lot of their inspections involve simply getting into a Taxi and asking the driver to take them on a relatively short trip.
If the fare increases before reaching 500m they will prosecute the driver. If the fare increases by an amount that does not tally with their GPS Fare App they will prosecute the Driver.
And if the Driver refuses to take them on the short trip requested ......
Oh, and Metrology don't seal them, Applus+ do.

.....but this has nothing to do with this thread.

Yes I understand the controls that are in place and the checks that are carried out, but I somehow doubt they're foolproof - all systems are liable to be gamed.

And it has everything to do with this thread because the evolution of the technologies will put the 'meter' in the consumer's pocket changing the entire nature of the transaction.

mgbgt1978 · 19-08-2016 06:50PM

I can only assume you are aware of Uber's 'surge pricing'. The same trip in London could vary from say £18 to £100 in just a few hours.
How does that "put the meter in the customer's pocket " ???

edit; This;
https://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-fare-estimator/
...will give you a relatively accurate fare estimate, which cannot jump by 60% (or far more) due to the supply v demand.

iamtony · 19-08-2016 06:59PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

I can only assume you are aware of Uber's 'surge pricing'. The same trip in London could vary from say £18 to £100 in just a few hours.
How does that "put the meter in the customer's pocket " ???

edit; This;
https://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-fare-estimator/
...will give you a relatively accurate fare estimate, which cannot jump by 60% (or far more) due to the supply v demand.

The UBER fare is calculated by the app, completely different to a regular meter.

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 07:00PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

I can only assume you are aware of Uber's 'surge pricing'. The same trip in London could vary from say £18 to £100 in just a few hours.
How does that "put the meter in the customer's pocket " ???

edit; This;
https://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-fare-estimator/
...will give you a relatively accurate fare estimate, which cannot jump by 60% (or far more) due to the supply v demand.

I am, but you get the price in advance.....if you don't like it don't take it.

Are you aware of the various rip offs drivers use now......per head charging from the airport that far exceeds the metres fare......long way round.....taking advantage of inebriated passengers to do them out of change......etc etc etc

end of the road · 19-08-2016 07:16PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Might have to cut welfare then.

And no, we should never try to twart the development of technology to protect jobs.

we have to for the greater good of insuring work and a low wellfare bill. we can't cut wellfare as it would lead to more crime

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They retrain, we need to move away from the concept of working in the same industry all your life.

Cutting welfare if it happened would be a necessity.

they can't retrain if they're are no jobs due to automation. we don't need to move away from the concept of working in the same industry all your life otherwise some may end up never working again. cutting wellfare can't be done as we would have a huge crime rate.

mgbgt1978 · 19-08-2016 07:22PM

iamtony wrote: »

The UBER fare is calculated by the app, completely different to a regular meter.

That's exactly what I said.
I linked to the Taxi Fare Calculator to give an indication that the Taxi Fare remains pretty much constant (if you don't let the Driver act the Boll*x) while the Uber Fare can fluctuate dramatically.
Jawgap stated that using Uber puts the 'meter in the customer's pocket'. I was merely pointing out that the reverse is true.

YFlyer · 19-08-2016 07:25PM

There are already videos online of these fake taxis.

Billy86 · 19-08-2016 07:27PM

Letree wrote: »

How will these cars get out when trying to come on to a main road from a side road. In my home town you could be sitting for half hour at rush hour to get out of some side roads unless someone lets you out. Are people likely to let a driverless car out as handy. I wonder what way they would program the car to deal with it.

Scientists are way ahead of you here - http://media1.gameinformer.com/filestorage/CommunityServer.Components.SiteFiles/imagefeed/featured/warner-bros/mad-max/screengallery/madmax_magnumopuswithfuirepipes.jpg

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 07:28PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

That's exactly what I said.
I linked to the Taxi Fare Calculator to give an indication that the Taxi Fare remains pretty much constant (if you don't let the Driver act the Boll*x) while the Uber Fare can fluctuate dramatically.
Jawgap stated that using Uber puts the 'meter in the customer's pocket'. I was merely pointing out that the reverse is true.

No, because with the app you get the price in advance, you get a record the route taken and it handles the payment.....

......what does a meter give the punter? A receipt? Leaving them vulnerable to being overcharged by the driver messing around with change or dialling in a different amount to the PDQ machine if the punter presents a card.

I wonder how many boozed punters drivers will take advantage of tonight?

mgbgt1978 · 19-08-2016 07:31PM

Jawgap wrote: »

I am, but you get the price in advance.....if you don't like it don't take it.

Are you aware of the various rip offs drivers use now......per head charging from the airport that far exceeds the metres fare......long way round.....taking advantage of inebriated passengers to do them out of change......etc etc etc

A €1 charge per additional passenger is part of the Fare Structure decided by the Taxi Regulator. It's hardly a rip-off if they are given the right to charge it by the Regulatory Body.
If a passenger (even "out-of-towners" can use a GPS APP on their phone) feels they are being taken the long way round they are perfectly entitled to tell the driver which way they want him to go.
The inebriated thing could apply to both Taxi's and Uber's. If they're that drunk anybody can tell them they owe 'so much' for the trip.

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 07:39PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

A €1 charge per additional passenger is part of the Fare Structure decided by the Taxi Regulator. It's hardly a rip-off if they are given the right to charge it by the Regulatory Body.
If a passenger (even "out-of-towners" can use a GPS APP on their phone) feels they are being taken the long way round they are perfectly entitled to tell the driver which way they want him to go.
The inebriated thing could apply to both Taxi's and Uber's. If they're that drunk anybody can tell them they owe 'so much' for the trip.

No, I'm talking about, from personal experience, 4 people getting into a taxi at the airport and bring told the fare into the city centre is a tenner per head (the driver thought all four of us were English because the other lads were nattering and I was the quiet one.....

......and the point is with apps like uber etc you have the price in advance and a record of the route taken.....you don't have to worry about directing the driver, nor bring ripped off when you hand cash over......plus you get to rate the driver and vehicle for everyone's benefit and ready access to a dispute resolution procedure. Of course drivers are against it, it re-balances the service in favour of the consumer.

mgbgt1978 · 19-08-2016 07:42PM

Jawgap wrote: »

No, because with the app you get the price in advance, you get a record the route taken and it handles the payment.....

......what does a meter give the punter? A receipt? Leaving them vulnerable to being overcharged by the driver messing around with change or dialling in a different amount to the PDQ machine if the punter presents a card.

I wonder how many boozed punters drivers will take advantage of tonight?

I think you're missing the point here. You claimed that Uber "puts the meter in the customer's pocket".
I am simply pointing out that the customer has no input into the fare charged.....and more importantly, due to Uber's pricing structure, the fare they paid when sober could be many multiples of that later in the night.
You say if they don't like it they don't have to use them. That just leaves them stuck outside a venue because Uber has the Meter in their own pocket.

TBH it's all irrelevant in Ireland anyway as Uber can only operate here using Licenced Taxis and not charging more than the metered rate. So their biggest draw for Drivers (surge pricing) is not an option here. The Fare they quote here must not be higher than the meter rate.

edit: re your post above. That is hardly just a Dublin airport issue, it's worldwide. There's a local Taxi Company here (and many more around the country I'm sure) who do all their work through an App. No radios, calls given out in strict rotation to different areas, customers given a fixed-price fare by text when ordering.......they are the busiest company by far.
But they don't (and cannot) operate a surge pricing model. That's my biggest issue with Uber.

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 07:47PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

I think you're missing the point here. You claimed that Uber "puts the meter in the customer's pocket".
I am simply pointing out that the customer has no input into the fare charged.....and more importantly, due to Uber's pricing structure, the fare they paid when sober could be many multiples of that later in the night.
You say if they don't like it they don't have to use them. That just leaves them stuck outside a venue because Uber has the Meter in their own pocket.

TBH it's all irrelevant in Ireland anyway as Uber can only operate here using Licenced Taxis and not charging more than the metered rate. So their biggest draw for Drivers (surge pricing) is not an option here.

No the customer doesn't, but they do know the price in advance and they don't have to take it.....

.....under the current model, I take the taxi and when I arrive I have to pay - I can't exactly hand the "service" back.....in other words as a punter I'm bound in. Apps change the power balance, of course drivers are dead against it because they'll have to provide a quality service - the smelly rip off merchants will suffer at the hands of the market, the quality providers will build market share.

BabyE · 19-08-2016 07:50PM

Read a great article about how these ****ing nerds in silicon valley are forcing the type of society that nobody wants. Hard to argue.

Billy86 · 19-08-2016 07:50PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

I can only assume you are aware of Uber's 'surge pricing'. The same trip in London could vary from say £18 to £100 in just a few hours.
How does that "put the meter in the customer's pocket " ???

edit; This;
https://www.transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-fare-estimator/
...will give you a relatively accurate fare estimate, which cannot jump by 60% (or far more) due to the supply v demand.

It makes you acknowledge the surge and how much it is before you order your fare (in Canada at least). A box comes up on your screen that says 'x1.6 surge costs' (e.g. 60% extra right now in your area) and you literally have to type in '1' and then '6' to acknowledge you agree with this.

That seems very fair to me. And no, I refuse to use that pun.

EDIT: I also find that if there is a surge, it's gone back down to (or near) normal within a few minutes, barring something like a morning blizzard or big event such as New Years.

Billy86 · 19-08-2016 07:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

if it means a bigger wellfare bill, then it definitely should be protected from so called "progress"

It would be much more beneficial to look at how to change the overall system to accommodate for progress, than to attempt to curtail progress because it does not suit the current system.

mgbgt1978 · 19-08-2016 07:58PM

Billy86 wrote: »

It makes you acknowledge the surge and how much it is before you order your fare (in Canada at least). A box comes up on your screen that says 'x1.6 surge costs' (e.g. 60% extra right now in your area) and you literally have to type in '1' and then '6' to acknowledge you agree with this.

That seems very fair to me. And no, I refuse to use that pun.

EDIT: I also find that if there is a surge, it's gone back down to (or near) normal within a few minutes, barring something like a morning blizzard or big event such as New Years.

Which is completely illegal here...
...which again is why I linked to the Fare Calculator.

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 08:03PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Which is completely illegal here...
...which again is why I linked to the Fare Calculator.

At the moment it's illegal, but things move with the times. Laws take a while to catch, but taxi drivers are deluding themselves if they think they can halt progress......either they figure a way to offer a superior service or they'll be overtaken by the technology.

Jawgap · 19-08-2016 08:11PM

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Which is completely illegal here...
...which again is why I linked to the Fare Calculator.

The fare 'calculator' returns the following result when you dial in Dublin Airport to Abbey Street in the city centre.....

"€19.00 to €29.80"

......that's like a 50% spread.....that's a "calculator"

andekwarhola · 19-08-2016 08:17PM

Give the robot cars about a year and they'll start complaining about refugees, playing the Wolfe Tones at volume, making 'mistakes' when debiting your card and claiming that 'I always go to X via the M50'.

iamtony · 19-08-2016 08:20PM

Jawgap wrote: »

The fare 'calculator' returns the following result when you dial in Dublin Airport to Abbey Street in the city centre.....

"€19.00 to €29.80"

......that's like a 50% spread.....that's a "calculator"

As far as I'm aware uber don't give fixed prices either. Outside Ireland they use the meter built into their app. All they tell you in advance is that the surge applies. Hailo in Ireland does offer a fixed price service for jobs out of the airport.

mgbgt1978 · 19-08-2016 08:23PM

Jawgap wrote: »

The fare 'calculator' returns the following result when you dial in Dublin Airport to Abbey Street in the city centre.....

"€19.00 to €29.80"

......that's like a 50% spread.....that's a "calculator"

All Uber gives me for right now (as an unregistered user) is Uber Black. Estimate €35-€45.:rolleyes:

The Taxi Calculator at least gives the 'no traffic/heavy traffic' estimates.

The beginning of the end for taxi drivers

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