Father sues school over sons exam results

steddyeddy · 19-08-2016 12:48PM

If the addition of special needs kids in the class lowered the average grade then I'd say:

1. welcome to the real world.
2. The grades were artificially improved by selecting against those with special needs.

Smondie · 19-08-2016 12:49PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

]
Even with SNAs there is often disruption to classes where there are one or more special needs students, there can be noise tantrums etc and the class is disrupted until the student is appeased or removed. This would not be as big an issue as students with little or no English where the teachers are expected to teach them subjects they clearly don't understand, this is a massive problem in schools in the UK but Ireland is catching up.

I would hope that those with poor/little English would be placed into intensive English classes and only placed into mainstream classes when they have the same standard and ability in English as the others in the class.

For special needs students it might be worth looking at having a classroom in each school dedicated to special needs with a teacher who is capable of covering all the class range in the class(for primary level) with the help of the SNAs, I don't see Special needs students being as much of a distraction for second level once there is no disruption during classes.

Ok, but this guy was a native english speaker, was in secondary and didn't have special needs. His performance seems to have improved with active parental involvement in his education.

The number of special needs children was only brought up in response to why the overall average of the results were down this year compared to others.

purplecow1977 · 19-08-2016 12:50PM

foggy_lad wrote:

What I believe is that no child or teen with special needs or needing extra tuition in English should be in a class to the detriment of the class.

foggy_lad wrote:

All children whether with special needs or with not a word of English are entitled to the same education(I feel they should be entitled to extra).

Actually I'd argue that children with English as a second language will learn faster from their peers.

Samaris · 19-08-2016 12:50PM

looksee wrote: »

Doesn't it depend on the special needs? A person with good intelligence and comprehension but having physical issues - motor skills, impaired vision etc could easily be a good contributor to the class, whereas someone with learning difficulties would have great difficulty keeping up with a class - I cannot see how that is of benefit to them or the rest of the class.

I do not think this applies to primary school, when having contact with special needs children, and vice versa, is generally beneficial.

It does, yeah. Having worked with students (at university level) with special needs, "special needs" is a hugely wide-ranging topic. At university level, I at least was primarily a contact/aid for students with things like chronic fatigue, ADD and its spectrum, dyslexia is a big one, chronic illness and physical disability.

Having said that, university is a slightly different kettle of fish, as it's an optional level of education, compared with the legal neccessity of education of teenagers and prior age groups. And it is educational in other ways for all the students involved, but there is still (and lets face it, always has been) a difficulty in ensuring the workload is within the capacity - and challenges the capacity - for all the students, academically bright, academically less interested, more sporty kids, dyslexic/dyspraxic/dyscalculaic children and those with other special needs.

On the other hand, what are we comparing to? Are we/should we be competing with schools in the local area? In the country? In the EU/world? We're all working off different curricula based on even what cultural mores see as more or less important. What is an Irish A in higher maths compared to, say, an Asian country that focusses strongly on maths? An Irish A in English should require a higher level of English than it does in Sweden.

So basically, I'm saying that we should be a bit cautious on how to approach this sort of story, because it's a lot more complicated than a short newspaper article can convey.

freshpopcorn · 19-08-2016 12:54PM

I know some people and the reason they are getting A1's now is simply because they are attending loads and loads of grinds. The money that the parents are spending on these simply wasn't their before. (But of course back in my day it was real work)
If the rate of students that failed was high it would make me question things some what.
Of course they are awkward parents now a day's. They were a few back in the 1980's as well. There's more today because of the Internet which allows people to figure out every law/detail which could allow them to sue the school.
I think teachers/principal have a hard enough jobs. From what I've being told that generally the children are fine. Some might be troublesome and cam be hard work but in general they can work something out.
The parents however can be a nightmare. If a teacher thinks that a child needs a little extra help. It's refused because my son/daughter is so intelligent and then theirs parents who expect their kids to be little brain box's and can't understand why they aren't.
When I was in secondary school they was generally a SNA in the class room with somebody and it didn't cause any trouble. They were always people with learning difficulties years ago these kids were left in the corner or had the chap beat out of them for being thick. I know one guy moved on to third level because of his SNA and I doubt he would have without them. So the results would have being even worse without the SNA for my leaving cert class!

CMOTDibbler · 19-08-2016 12:57PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

All children whether with special needs or with not a word of English are entitled to the same education(I feel they should be entitled to extra).

What I believe is that no child or teen with special needs or needing extra tuition in English should be in a class to the detriment of the class.

Special needs covers a multitude of learning disabilities. It's very hard (and unfair) to make sweeping statements about the effect on a 'normal' class that the presence of a special needs student would have.

I have already said that the resources should be in place to properly take care of special needs students. Those resources normally include extra tuition and extra (properly trained) staff to cater for them. The effect that would have on normal classwork should be negligible.

You certainly shouldn't 'segregate' students on the basis of their needs. That would have a negative psychological effect on the students concerned. Believe it or not, learning disabilities like Dyslexia or Dyspraxia etc. can be overcome by the correct teaching methods and tools.

seamus · 19-08-2016 01:00PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Maybe he needs to tell his son to take some responsibility for his own results.

Surey if the teaching as so bad this would have been noticeable by the son well before he took his exams and he could have asked to leave.Seeing as he was so concerned with his own education and it's cost (at least accrding to the article that is).

Well this is likely what any civil case would hinge upon. Not so much whether the student knew he was doing poorly, but whether the school notified the parent(s) of the student's poor performance and flagged that to them. And the level of interest the parent(s) took in the boy's education.

The contract here is between the school and the parent, so really whether the boy knew he was failing is kind of irrelevant - the school should address performance concerns with the parent (and vice-versa) and nobody should be relying solely on the student to tell them.

It's always fun to read between the lines though;

Dad drives trucks in the Middle East. Which means he's basically absent for most of the time.

He comments that he may as well have sent his son to the local comprehensive. Which illustrates that he believes academic performance is largely down to the school and not the child.

His son is now best friends with an Russian oligarch's son. And he counts that as a good thing. Presumably because he sees it as a pathway to a million-pound job, ignoring the likely pathway into corruption and illegal activities.

Mr Craddock, who is retired, said he was asked not to attend the school’s summer gathering,
....
“The school has followed our published complaints procedure to the letter and Mr Craddock has had every chance to present his case in the appropriate manner."

Two quotes which when placed together paint and obvious picture of what this guy has been doing up until he filed a civil case against the school.

So as much as we can play Devil's advocate about whether the school did what they were supposed to, it's pretty clear that this guy is a complete idiot who expected a school to raise his child for him and is now pissed that it turns out his son is an idiot like he is.

LoLth · 19-08-2016 01:14PM

1. This article is about a UK father suing a UK private school - how does this possibly relate to the Irish education system being dumbed down?

2. How are his parent more involved in his education now? he's studying at a college in Cheshire, maybe independant learning and practical subjects (like aboriculture and horticulture) are more suited to his talents rather than those taught at a high end private school? (assuming they dont teach horticulture).

3. Grades vary from year to year based on changes in teaching staff , changes in curriculum , differences in the students and of course luck of the draw on the topics that come up in the exam. If the teachers tried to predict the exam and were too tightly focused then, if they get it wrong, it can be terrible for the students.

4. the father was "absentee" because he was working as a truck driver in the middle east to provide what he thought was the best education for his child. Not the worst reason to be away from home (and he wasnt gone completely, he was back to attend the summer event in the school, nowhere does the article state that the father was uninvolved).

5. If the kid failed so badly it cannot have come as a complete shock. was he under any form of continuous assessment? did the son know he was struggling? was he arsed? did the school inform the parents of the sons academic performance prior to the exams? did they get involved?

as for points for E grades: why not? if they get 25% of the answers correct why not give a few points There is a lot more to learn on higher level courses so knowing 25% of the material is still something. If its unbalancing the points levels in universities will shift to accommodate them. As long as the points for a honours E is less than the points for an ordinary level C then it shouldnt disadvantage the ordinary level students that much and still make the gamble of studying a higher difficulty in a subject worthwhile.

uck51js9zml2yt · 19-08-2016 01:21PM

We don't know of h got bad grades in all his school exams. If so, what were his parents doing for the previous years in making sure he studied.

Smondie · 19-08-2016 01:22PM

LoLth wrote: »

1. This article is about a UK father suing a UK private school - how does this possibly relate to the Irish education system being dumbed down?

2. How are his parent more involved in his education now? he's studying at a college in Cheshire, maybe independant learning and practical subjects (like aboriculture and horticulture) are more suited to his talents rather than those taught at a high end private school? (assuming they dont teach horticulture).

3. Grades vary from year to year based on changes in teaching staff , changes in curriculum , differences in the students and of course luck of the draw on the topics that come up in the exam. If the teachers tried to predict the exam and were too tightly focused then, if they get it wrong, it can be terrible for the students.

4. the father was "absentee" because he was working as a truck driver in the middle east to provide what he thought was the best education for his child. Not the worst reason to be away from home (and he wasnt gone completely, he was back to attend the summer event in the school, nowhere does the article state that the father was uninvolved).

5. If the kid failed so badly it cannot have come as a complete shock. was he under any form of continuous assessment? did the son know he was struggling? was he arsed? did the school inform the parents of the sons academic performance prior to the exams? did they get involved?

as for points for E grades: why not? if they get 25% of the answers correct why not give a few points There is a lot more to learn on higher level courses so knowing 25% of the material is still something. If its unbalancing the points levels in universities will shift to accommodate them. As long as the points for a honours E is less than the points for an ordinary level C then it shouldnt disadvantage the ordinary level students that much and still make the gamble of studying a higher difficulty in a subject worthwhile.

1. See the thing about the e's
2. He is in the same country now
3. No where does it state it's because the teacher predicted the wrong things would come up in the exam. This is not the basis for the fathers complaint.
4. Still absent and unaware of his sons performance
5. Did the father not discuss this at the parent teacher meeting. He seems to have been oblivious to his sons performance.

As for E points, Come on....

Why not reward points for an F, after all you could get 24% right with an F.

19-08-2016 01:28PM

3rdDegree wrote: »

The father paid huge money for a service he feels was not delivered. The fact that results overall were poor and the principle acknowledges that improvements had to be made as a result kind of backs up the father's case. He seems to have made sacrifices and worked very hard to pay for the education he wanted his son to have. I think that commendable. He had every right to sue.

But that argument isn't nearly as palatable to some people, who would prefer to dismiss the son as stupid and the father as delusional, and hope they fail, instead of commending him for addressing poor teaching that compromises kids futures. Which, imo, is a pretty spiteful way of thinking.

It's always an eye opener to see peoples prejudices at work on these threads.

Sue Pa Key Pa · 19-08-2016 01:31PM

5 years of Summer, Christmas and mock exams and not even a hint that this was coming

steddyeddy · 19-08-2016 01:37PM

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

5 years of Summer, Christmas and mock exams and not even a hint that this was coming

That's the thing. Maybe the teachers weren't communicating this but something seems odd. The boy seemed to have the self awareness to know he didn't do well so I don't get how he wasn't aware of his failings several thousand pounds ago.

dudara · 19-08-2016 01:40PM

irelandrover wrote: »

Offering points for an E means that more people will take the higher level. A lot of people are capable of higher than a D at higher but drop down out of fear. So i'd look at it as not rewarding and E but encouraging more people to stick with the higher level.

I personally think that it's better to achieve well at a lower grade, than poorly (and let's face it, 25% - 39% is poor) at a higher grade. I'm not actually sure that awarding Es at the higher grades is meaningful.

CMOTDibbler · 19-08-2016 01:42PM

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

5 years of Summer, Christmas and mock exams and not even a hint that this was coming

I notice that it's a boarding school as well as a day school. I wonder which class of pupil the son was.

If a boarding student, you couldn't help but look askance at the school rather than the parents.

Riddle101 · 19-08-2016 01:43PM

Not going to take sides on this. There is a chance that the student just didn't study enough or wasn't focused, and failed his exams due to poor performance as a student, and the father is blaming the school for his sons failure because he's living in denial. That or he's a chancer trying to get back his money because his son failed his exams. On the otherhand, if school had a bad record of poor performing students, then it might be down to the teachers there.

steddyeddy · 19-08-2016 01:51PM

3rdDegree wrote: »

The father paid huge money for a service he feels was not delivered. The fact that results overall were poor and the principle acknowledges that improvements had to be made as a result kind of backs up the father's case. He seems to have made sacrifices and worked very hard to pay for the education he wanted his son to have. I think that commendable. He had every right to sue.

But how do we know the son was academically gifted at all? Is it fair to push those who are sub par through the system?

looksee · 19-08-2016 01:59PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But how do we know the son was academically gifted at all? Is it fair to push those who are sub par through the system?

We don't, and while the expression 'sub par' is not really appropriate, it is true that the only measure of education at the moment is academic. Not everyone is suited to academic education and if more respect and social acceptability were given to non-academic education - practical skills - there would be less of the tendency to try and force the square pegs of practical students into the round holes of academia.

19-08-2016 02:00PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

But how do we know the son was academically gifted at all? Is it fair to push those who are sub par through the system?

Referring to people as 'sub-par' is an awful way of putting it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 19-08-2016 02:06PM

How children in Ireland are educated is awful. I've had 2 or 3 teachers that were genuinely passionate about the subject they thought AND were good at teaching. The rest seemed to not give a damn about the subject itself, the pupils or anything for that matter.

Awarding points for achieving an E is bloody idiotic. Let the failers fail and let the achievers achieve. Otherwise the point system is pointless.

LoLth · 19-08-2016 02:07PM

Smondie wrote: »

1. See the thing about the e's

still unrelated. Kid does crap at exams, dad is angry, this all takes place in England so it points to an issue with the Irish education system? A tenuous link. Yes the points for E grades does relate to the Irish education system but I'm not sure I see the link between the article you cite and the points for E grades?

2. He is in the same country now

ah, so being in the same country = involved. The private school was a boarding school, how much more interaction would the parents have had if the father had been home every day? Do you know for a fact that the father was not in contact with the student? how many days a year did they spend together? how many now?

3. No where does it state it's because the teacher predicted the wrong things would come up in the exam. This is not the basis for the fathers complaint.

no but is a possible reason for grades being lower than a previous year. Its not automatically the fault of the teachers nor is it automatically the fault of the students. This article that you have linked to is very vague and very light on the details it does provide. I don't think there is enough evidence there to determine if the father is correct to sue o not and there is definitely not enough to base a critique of the Irish education system on it.

4. Still absent and unaware of his sons performance

please quote where the article states that he was unaware.

5. Did the father not discuss this at the parent teacher meeting. He seems to have been oblivious to his sons performance.

again, please cite the relevant portion of the article that supports this statement. Are you sure you linked to the correct article? Are you now saying that the father attended parent teacher meetings? if so, how could he have been oblivious? as I asked, were the parents not made aware by the teachers? was the son not aware of his performance coming up to the exam? was he getting all As because the continuous assesment was set to a low level to give the impression of good performance and the exam was a reality? I dont know and the article doesn't tell us any of this.

As for E points, Come on....

Why not reward points for an F, after all you could get 24% right with an F.

and why not? if the points for a course were fixed and immutable then I would see your point but they do move based on the points of the students applying (there are stories reporting colleges artificially inflating point requirements to make their courses appear somehow better) and the number of places available. Are there any details on the level of points being suggested? what if its just 2 or 3 ? even 10 ? Getting 25% in Honours maths is arguable as difficult as getting 50 or 60 % in foundation math. The only issue I can see is if an E or F grade awards the 25 bonus points - actually I would argue that the bonus points should be removed as honours maths already awards higher point than ordinary level subjects.

(an A1 in ordinary level math is the equivalent of a C3 in higher, an A1 in foundation is less than the current lowest in higher, if an E was worth 10 marks it would be the equivalent of a B1 foundation).

The students are still competing against the same students for places and there are still course requirements to be met so it is unlikely for someone with an E in higher math to be sitting pure math or actuary any time soon.

allibastor · 19-08-2016 02:18PM

I knew a chap once, his parent sent him to Bruce College in Limerick, Feepaying second level from 1st year till 6th year.

He did fine on his Junior cert but for his leaving he decided he wished to be a plumber and only needed to pass ordinary level math and ordinary level english, so that is exactly what he did.
I think it was like 40 points in total as he didnt sit the other exams.

I actually think he brought down the whole point average for the class, as there was only 10 in it at the time !!!!!

Smondie · 19-08-2016 02:18PM

LoLth wrote: »

still unrelated. Kid does crap at exams, dad is angry, this all takes place in England so it points to an issue with the Irish education system? A tenuous link. Yes the points for E grades does relate to the Irish education system but I'm not sure I see the link between the article you cite and the points for E grades?

ah, so being in the same country = involved. The private school was a boarding school, how much more interaction would the parents have had if the father had been home every day? Do you know for a fact that the father was not in contact with the student? how many days a year did they spend together? how many now?

no but is a possible reason for grades being lower than a previous year. Its not automatically the fault of the teachers nor is it automatically the fault of the students. This article that you have linked to is very vague and very light on the details it does provide. I don't think there is enough evidence there to determine if the father is correct to sue o not and there is definitely not enough to base a critique of the Irish education system on it.

please quote where the article states that he was unaware.

again, please cite the relevant portion of the article that supports this statement. Are you sure you linked to the correct article? Are you now saying that the father attended parent teacher meetings? if so, how could he have been oblivious? as I asked, were the parents not made aware by the teachers? was the son not aware of his performance coming up to the exam? was he getting all As because the continuous assesment was set to a low level to give the impression of good performance and the exam was a reality? I dont know and the article doesn't tell us any of this.

and why not? if the points for a course were fixed and immutable then I would see your point but they do move based on the points of the students applying (there are stories reporting colleges artificially inflating point requirements to make their courses appear somehow better) and the number of places available. Are there any details on the level of points being suggested? what if its just 2 or 3 ? even 10 ? Getting 25% in Honours maths is arguable as difficult as getting 50 or 60 % in foundation math. The only issue I can see is if an E or F grade awards the 25 bonus points - actually I would argue that the bonus points should be removed as honours maths already awards higher point than ordinary level subjects.

(an A1 in ordinary level math is the equivalent of a C3 in higher, an A1 in foundation is less than the current lowest in higher, if an E was worth 10 marks it would be the equivalent of a B1 foundation).

The students are still competing against the same students for places and there are still course requirements to be met so it is unlikely for someone with an E in higher math to be sitting pure math or actuary any time soon.

Sorry if you can't see the connection, I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink it

If the father was involved and interested in his sons education he would be aware of his sons performance long before the final exam results. Sending children to boarding school should not be an excuse for parents to check out of thier responsability to ensure thier child is performing to the best of thier ability.

The E points and bonuses points are total nonsense. all it shows is the child is working at the wrong level for thier ability.

MeatTwoVeg · 19-08-2016 02:24PM

Candie wrote:

Referring to people as 'sub-par' is an awful way of putting it.

Unless they're golfers.

CMOTDibbler · 19-08-2016 02:40PM

Alison Green Soberness wrote: »

How children in Ireland are educated is awful. I've had 2 or 3 teachers that were genuinely passionate about the subject they thought AND were good at teaching. The rest seemed to not give a damn about the subject itself, the pupils or anything for that matter.

Awarding points for achieving an E is bloody idiotic. Let the failers fail and let the achievers achieve. Otherwise the point system is pointless.

Permabear · 19-08-2016 02:40PM

This post has been deleted.

LoLth · 19-08-2016 03:02PM

Smondie wrote: »

Sorry if you can't see the connection, I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink it

no, you posted a link to a story about a father suing a school in England and made a leap of logic to this somehow being evidential of an issue with the Irish education system. Its not even a very good article as it leaves a lot of questions unanswered and provides next to no context or background. I'm not even sure if we're supposed to be cheering the father on or shocked that he's suing - if an article wants to report facts then it should report all of the facts available to allow the reader to make an informed decision and decide what way they want to feel by inferring facts that suit their personal opinion.

If the father was involved and interested in his sons education he would be aware of his sons performance long before the final exam results.

I completely agree. now where does the article tell us that this was or was not the case? Was the father aware and just didnt bother or was the father unaware?

Sending children to boarding school should not be an excuse for parents to check out of thier responsability to ensure thier child is performing to the best of thier ability.

and again I agree completely but again, where does the article support any assertion that either was this was or was not the case? was the student a full time boarder or was the student day-school only? The only "fact" we have about the sons attendance is that he made friends with the son of a Russian oligarch and we only have the Father's word for that.

you seem to be blaming the father for being absent and failing in his duties - without any evidence to support this or refute it.

The E points and bonuses points are total nonsense. all it shows is the child is working at the wrong level for thier ability.

or had a really bad day at the exam, or blanked , or had a panic attack due to pressure , or cant do exams but is fantastic at continuous assessment when he or she has time to work on an answer. A blanket rejection of the idea as nonsense without any reasonable argument is hardly fair. what if all exams gave points for any grade? then students are rewarded for actually turning up on the day. What about the CAO points system's ability to shift to absorb and adapt to this change? what effect will the points for en E actually have on the points system or on the totals available for other subjects? How many points are they considering awarding? will it still include the flat 25 point bonus for getting a point-grade in higher maths? do you know any of these details before you decry it as "dumbing down" of the education system? (and also, is it fair to claim the entire system is being dumbed down? it seems that this would only affect a small subset of the student body and would have zero impact on those that have no intention of having maths as one of their top 6 results to be included in the points total.

Smondie · 19-08-2016 03:27PM

LoLth wrote: »

no, you posted a link to a story about a father suing a school in England and made a leap of logic to this somehow being evidential of an issue with the Irish education system. Its not even a very good article as it leaves a lot of questions unanswered and provides next to no context or background. I'm not even sure if we're supposed to be cheering the father on or shocked that he's suing - if an article wants to report facts then it should report all of the facts available to allow the reader to make an informed decision and decide what way they want to feel by inferring facts that suit their personal opinion.

I completely agree. now where does the article tell us that this was or was not the case? Was the father aware and just didnt bother or was the father unaware?

and again I agree completely but again, where does the article support any assertion that either was this was or was not the case? was the student a full time boarder or was the student day-school only? The only "fact" we have about the sons attendance is that he made friends with the son of a Russian oligarch and we only have the Father's word for that.

you seem to be blaming the father for being absent and failing in his duties - without any evidence to support this or refute it.

or had a really bad day at the exam, or blanked , or had a panic attack due to pressure , or cant do exams but is fantastic at continuous assessment when he or she has time to work on an answer. A blanket rejection of the idea as nonsense without any reasonable argument is hardly fair. what if all exams gave points for any grade? then students are rewarded for actually turning up on the day. What about the CAO points system's ability to shift to absorb and adapt to this change? what effect will the points for en E actually have on the points system or on the totals available for other subjects? How many points are they considering awarding? will it still include the flat 25 point bonus for getting a point-grade in higher maths? do you know any of these details before you decry it as "dumbing down" of the education system? (and also, is it fair to claim the entire system is being dumbed down? it seems that this would only affect a small subset of the student body and would have zero impact on those that have no intention of having maths as one of their top 6 results to be included in the points total.

Awarding points for E's is like giving every child in the race a medal because thier feelings might be hurt if another child is faster than them.It's that special snowflake mentality that has the father sueing the school for his sons lack of performance.

Marital breakdown or absent parents have an effect on children, but this is ignored.

If the father was interested, why didn't he find out about his sons lack of performance before the final results?

steddyeddy · 19-08-2016 03:36PM

looksee wrote: »

We don't, and while the expression 'sub par' is not really appropriate, it is true that the only measure of education at the moment is academic. Not everyone is suited to academic education and if more respect and social acceptability were given to non-academic education - practical skills - there would be less of the tendency to try and force the square pegs of practical students into the round holes of academia.

Sub par might have been cruel but one GSCE isn't above average. I meant it in relation to his effort rather than him which I should have specified.

I agree not everyone is academically minded and I don't think we should force those who aren't to enter academia. That's my point in relation to this guy. The fact that his father paid 20 something grand a year to go to a different school does not change the fact that he might be better learning practical skills. The fact that he paid that money makes it less likely he or his father will accept that possibility.

For the record I don't think GCSEs or the leaving cert are a great indicator of intelligence either.

Permabear · 19-08-2016 04:20PM

This post has been deleted.

Father sues school over sons exam results

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