Father sues school over sons exam results

Smondie

The father wants his fees returned as his son failed to achieve good marks in his exams.

No personal responsibility is been taken. It's not the sons fault for not engaging in the education being offered, it's not the fathers fault for being an absent parent, no it's the school's fault.

The son got a c and a few e's. In Ireland next year they are going to start awarding points for e's on higher level papers. The dumbing down of the education state to suit the special snowflake brigade is shocking.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/father-sues-private-school-abbotsholme-independent-rocester-son-fails-all-but-one-gcses-a7195716.html

Winterlong

Its a UK story. Are you complaining about their education system, our education system or the boy's father?
If I was better educated I would understand.

I can't read the article, but if he paid for top notch education and the kids teachers were all disinterested and inept wasters, then more power to him.

If he's offloading responsibility for a lazy son, then it's a different story.

cdeb

The father wrote:

The money I spent could have paid for a house for him when he turns 18

The father sounds like a right twat - one of those who thinks throwing money at a child = good parenting.

The King of Moo

He should sue Yeats for not coming up too.

Smondie

Winterlong wrote: »

Its a UK story. Are you complaining about their education system, our education system or the boy's father?
If I was better educated I would understand.

The fathers attitude to his sons edcation. I paid for A's mentality.

And pointing out that the sons E's would gain him points here in Ireland from next year as we are so eager to dumb down education.

We are sending our children to school for longer now, most start institutionalising them at 3 in pre school, yet we have lowered our expectations of what can be achieved by them.

If results at the school were poor generally, it's fair to say that the service the parents paid for wasn't delivered.

In any other area of life, if we pay for something and don't get what we pay for nobody minds if the provider is taken to task for not delivering. When it comes to parents though, it's fair game to make assumptions about both them and their kids.

Especially when you're talking about something seen as elitist, like private education.

irelandrover

Smondie wrote: »

The fathers attitude to his sons edcation. I paid for A's mentality.

And pointing out that the sons E's would gain him points here in Ireland from next year as we are so eager to dumb down education.

Will offering points for an E not encourage more people to take higher level, increasing the education level.

I know lot of people capable of a C at higher were afraid a bad paper would screw them over, and hence dropped down

realdanbreen

I know that the majority of teachers do a good job but the fact remains that teaching is one of the most un accountable jobs that it is possible to have. You can be an incompent or uninterested teacher and there will be no repercussions just tough titty for the student and their class.

RWCNT

I originally read this as "Father sues son over exam results", disappointed now.

Smondie

irelandrover wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

The fathers attitude to his sons edcation. I paid for A's mentality.

And pointing out that the sons E's would gain him points here in Ireland from next year as we are so eager to dumb down education.

Will offering points for an E not encourage more people to take higher level, increasing the education level.

I know lot of people capable of a C at higher were afraid a bad paper would screw them over, and hence dropped down

An E is 39% - 25%. Rewards for knowing a quarter of the syllabus?

Penny Tration

Candie wrote: »

If results at the school were poor generally, it's fair to say that the service the parents paid for wasn't delivered.

In any other area of life, if we pay for something and don't get what we pay for nobody minds if the provider is taken to task for not delivering. When it comes to parents though, it's fair game to make assumptions about both them and their kids.

Especially when you're talking about something seen as elitist, like private education.

Yeah, I'm wondering about this myself.

The school's results as a whole were down fof that year. If everybody got lower grades and more failures than previous years, there's something going wrong in the teaching of the subjects.

Dirty Dingus McGee

From the article.

”David was disheartened when he got his results. He said 'you spent all that money on my education and I walk away with one GCSE'.

Yeah.I can really see a 17 year old actually saying that.

Hopefully the verdict comes back as "Your son is a dopey ****er, now piss off and stop wasting any more of my time".

foggy_lad

Smondie wrote: »

The father wants his fees returned as his son failed to achieve good marks in his exams.

No personal responsibility is been taken. It's not the sons fault for not engaging in the education being offered, it's not the fathers fault for being an absent parent, no it's the school's fault.

The son got a c and a few e's. In Ireland next year they are going to start awarding points for e's on higher level papers. The dumbing down of the education state to suit the special snowflake brigade is shocking.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/father-sues-private-school-abbotsholme-independent-rocester-son-fails-all-but-one-gcses-a7195716.html

When I did my LC there were nono of these arty farty A1 A2 B1,2,3 etc, You got an A, B, C, D,or E.

Also I noticed when the results come out now there are thousands getting several A1's, way back in the late 80s only the brightest few(2 or 3) in the country got all A's and there was only ever a few A's given in higher English!

Back then an A was worth something, they are ten a penny now!

Smondie

Penny Tration wrote: »

Candie wrote: »

If results at the school were poor generally, it's fair to say that the service the parents paid for wasn't delivered.

In any other area of life, if we pay for something and don't get what we pay for nobody minds if the provider is taken to task for not delivering. When it comes to parents though, it's fair game to make assumptions about both them and their kids.

Especially when you're talking about something seen as elitist, like private education.

Yeah, I'm wondering about this myself.

The school's results as a whole were down fof that year. If everybody got lower grades and more failures than previous years, there's something going wrong in the teaching of the subjects.

There was a high number of children with special needs enrolled in that year.

valoren

For £28,000 a YEAR you'd certainly want a return on investment.

irelandrover

Smondie wrote: »

An E is 39% - 25%. Rewards for knowing a quarter of the syllabus?

Offering points for an E means that more people will take the higher level. A lot of people are capable of higher than a D at higher but drop down out of fear. So i'd look at it as not rewarding and E but encouraging more people to stick with the higher level.

Smondie

realdanbreen wrote: »

I know that the majority of teachers do a good job but the fact remains that teaching is one of the most un accountable jobs that it is possible to have. You can be an incompent or uninterested teacher and there will be no repercussions just tough titty for the student and their class.

In the UK it's more accountable than here. The teachers here fight tooth and nail to be kept as unaccountable as possible.

3rdDegree

The father paid huge money for a service he feels was not delivered. The fact that results overall were poor and the principle acknowledges that improvements had to be made as a result kind of backs up the father's case. He seems to have made sacrifices and worked very hard to pay for the education he wanted his son to have. I think that commendable. He had every right to sue.

foggy_lad

Smondie wrote: »

There was a high number of children with special needs enrolled in that year.

Integrating special needs students and those with poor english into mainstream classes is responsible for a reduction in what students are achieving as teachers are unable to deliver the same to the majority of students because a few need so much extra attention. this is being countered by easier marking and subtle changes to the curriculum to make it all that much easier and make the falling class averages seem higher.

Smondie

foggy_lad wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

There was a high number of children with special needs enrolled in that year.

Integrating special needs students and those with poor english into mainstream classes is responsible for a reduction in what students are achieving as teachers are unable to deliver the same to the majority of students because a few need so much extra attention. this is being countered by easier marking and subtle changes to the curriculum to make it all that much easier and make the falling class averages seem higher.

Most special needs have now sna's in England, so the teacher has more help than ever before. Even in Ireland sna's are more prevalent than before.


Would you suggest separating the special needs pupils in to a separate school?

Dirty Dingus McGee

3rdDegree wrote: »

The father paid huge money for a service he feels was not delivered. The fact that results overall were poor and the principle acknowledges that improvements had to be made as a result kind of backs up the father's case. He seems to have made sacrifices and worked very hard to pay for the education he wanted his son to have. I think that commendable. He had every right to sue.

How can they prove the teachers were to blame?

The school were idiotic to even listen to him or even admit there might have been an issue.

Is every other parent suing ?

Maybe he needs to tell his son to take some responsibility for his own results.

Surey if the teaching as so bad this would have been noticeable by the son well before he took his exams and he could have asked to leave.Seeing as he was so concerned with his own education and it's cost (at least accrding to the article that is).

You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

looksee

Most special needs have now sna's in England, so the teacher has more help than ever before. Even in Ireland sna's are more prevalent than before.


Would you suggest separating the special needs pupils in to a separate school?

Doesn't it depend on the special needs? A person with good intelligence and comprehension but having physical issues - motor skills, impaired vision etc could easily be a good contributor to the class, whereas someone with learning difficulties would have great difficulty keeping up with a class - I cannot see how that is of benefit to them or the rest of the class.

I do not think this applies to primary school, when having contact with special needs children, and vice versa, is generally beneficial.

foggy_lad

Smondie wrote: »

Most special needs have now sna's in England, so the teacher has more help than ever before. Even in Ireland sna's are more prevalent than before.


Would you suggest separating the special needs pupils in to a separate school?

Even with SNAs there is often disruption to classes where there are one or more special needs students, there can be noise tantrums etc and the class is disrupted until the student is appeased or removed. This would not be as big an issue as students with little or no English where the teachers are expected to teach them subjects they clearly don't understand, this is a massive problem in schools in the UK but Ireland is catching up.

I would hope that those with poor/little English would be placed into intensive English classes and only placed into mainstream classes when they have the same standard and ability in English as the others in the class.

For special needs students it might be worth looking at having a classroom in each school dedicated to special needs with a teacher who is capable of covering all the class range in the class(for primary level) with the help of the SNAs, I don't see Special needs students being as much of a distraction for second level once there is no disruption during classes.

CMOTDibbler

foggy_lad wrote: »

Integrating special needs students and those with poor english into mainstream classes is responsible for a reduction in what students are achieving as teachers are unable to deliver the same to the majority of students because a few need so much extra attention. this is being countered by easier marking and subtle changes to the curriculum to make it all that much easier and make the falling class averages seem higher.

You shouldn't take on special needs children without the resources to deal with them. With fees in the tens of thousands, you'd think that shouldn't be a problem.

The education system is supposed to be for everyone. Are you suggesting that special needs children should be denied that right?

Your Face

Im suspicious about threads like these.

purplecow1977

Smondie wrote:

In the UK it's more accountable than here. The teachers here fight tooth and nail to be kept as unaccountable as possible.

Many UK teachers also quit teaching within a couple of years.

Is that a a system you want to aim for?

Irish teachers are accountable by the way. Ever hear of Whole School Evaluations?

purplecow1977

Smondie wrote:

Most special needs have now sna's in England, so the teacher has more help than ever before. Even in Ireland sna's are more prevalent than before.

SNAs are mostly allocated for physical care needs and their acquisition is usually hard fought.

Carlos Orange

Candie wrote: »

If results at the school were poor generally, it's fair to say that the service the parents paid for wasn't delivered.

It seems to have half the local authority and national average rate for receiving
5+ A-C GCSEs and A-C in both english and math.

https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/113003

purplecow1977

foggy_lad wrote:

For special needs students it might be worth looking at having a class dedicated to special needs with a teacher who is capable of covering all the class range in the class(for primary level) with the help of the SNAs, I don't see Special needs students being as much of a distraction for second level once there is no disruption during classes.

foggy_lad wrote:

I would hope that those with poor/little English would be placed into intensive English classes and only placed into mainstream classes when they have the same standard and ability in English as the others in the class.

foggy_lad wrote:

Even with SNAs there is often disruption to classes where there are one or more special needs students, there can be noise tantrums etc and the class is disrupted until the student is appeased or removed. This would not be as big an issue as students with little or no English where the teachers are expected to teach them subjects they clearly don't understand, this is a massive problem in schools in the UK but Ireland is catching up.

Wow, segregation at its best!

foggy_lad

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You shouldn't take on special needs children without the resources to deal with them. With fees in the tens of thousands, you'd think that shouldn't be a problem.

The education system is supposed to be for everyone. Are you suggesting that special needs children should be denied that right?

All children whether with special needs or with not a word of English are entitled to the same education(I feel they should be entitled to extra).

What I believe is that no child or teen with special needs or needing extra tuition in English should be in a class to the detriment of the class.

steddyeddy

If the addition of special needs kids in the class lowered the average grade then I'd say:

1. welcome to the real world.
2. The grades were artificially improved by selecting against those with special needs.

Smondie

foggy_lad wrote: »

]
Even with SNAs there is often disruption to classes where there are one or more special needs students, there can be noise tantrums etc and the class is disrupted until the student is appeased or removed. This would not be as big an issue as students with little or no English where the teachers are expected to teach them subjects they clearly don't understand, this is a massive problem in schools in the UK but Ireland is catching up.

I would hope that those with poor/little English would be placed into intensive English classes and only placed into mainstream classes when they have the same standard and ability in English as the others in the class.

For special needs students it might be worth looking at having a classroom in each school dedicated to special needs with a teacher who is capable of covering all the class range in the class(for primary level) with the help of the SNAs, I don't see Special needs students being as much of a distraction for second level once there is no disruption during classes.

Ok, but this guy was a native english speaker, was in secondary and didn't have special needs. His performance seems to have improved with active parental involvement in his education.

The number of special needs children was only brought up in response to why the overall average of the results were down this year compared to others.

purplecow1977

foggy_lad wrote:

What I believe is that no child or teen with special needs or needing extra tuition in English should be in a class to the detriment of the class.

foggy_lad wrote:

All children whether with special needs or with not a word of English are entitled to the same education(I feel they should be entitled to extra).

Actually I'd argue that children with English as a second language will learn faster from their peers.

Samaris

looksee wrote: »

Doesn't it depend on the special needs? A person with good intelligence and comprehension but having physical issues - motor skills, impaired vision etc could easily be a good contributor to the class, whereas someone with learning difficulties would have great difficulty keeping up with a class - I cannot see how that is of benefit to them or the rest of the class.

I do not think this applies to primary school, when having contact with special needs children, and vice versa, is generally beneficial.

It does, yeah. Having worked with students (at university level) with special needs, "special needs" is a hugely wide-ranging topic. At university level, I at least was primarily a contact/aid for students with things like chronic fatigue, ADD and its spectrum, dyslexia is a big one, chronic illness and physical disability.

Having said that, university is a slightly different kettle of fish, as it's an optional level of education, compared with the legal neccessity of education of teenagers and prior age groups. And it is educational in other ways for all the students involved, but there is still (and lets face it, always has been) a difficulty in ensuring the workload is within the capacity - and challenges the capacity - for all the students, academically bright, academically less interested, more sporty kids, dyslexic/dyspraxic/dyscalculaic children and those with other special needs.

On the other hand, what are we comparing to? Are we/should we be competing with schools in the local area? In the country? In the EU/world? We're all working off different curricula based on even what cultural mores see as more or less important. What is an Irish A in higher maths compared to, say, an Asian country that focusses strongly on maths? An Irish A in English should require a higher level of English than it does in Sweden.

So basically, I'm saying that we should be a bit cautious on how to approach this sort of story, because it's a lot more complicated than a short newspaper article can convey.

freshpopcorn

I know some people and the reason they are getting A1's now is simply because they are attending loads and loads of grinds. The money that the parents are spending on these simply wasn't their before. (But of course back in my day it was real work)
If the rate of students that failed was high it would make me question things some what.
Of course they are awkward parents now a day's. They were a few back in the 1980's as well. There's more today because of the Internet which allows people to figure out every law/detail which could allow them to sue the school.
I think teachers/principal have a hard enough jobs. From what I've being told that generally the children are fine. Some might be troublesome and cam be hard work but in general they can work something out.
The parents however can be a nightmare. If a teacher thinks that a child needs a little extra help. It's refused because my son/daughter is so intelligent and then theirs parents who expect their kids to be little brain box's and can't understand why they aren't.
When I was in secondary school they was generally a SNA in the class room with somebody and it didn't cause any trouble. They were always people with learning difficulties years ago these kids were left in the corner or had the chap beat out of them for being thick. I know one guy moved on to third level because of his SNA and I doubt he would have without them. So the results would have being even worse without the SNA for my leaving cert class!

CMOTDibbler

foggy_lad wrote: »

All children whether with special needs or with not a word of English are entitled to the same education(I feel they should be entitled to extra).

What I believe is that no child or teen with special needs or needing extra tuition in English should be in a class to the detriment of the class.

Special needs covers a multitude of learning disabilities. It's very hard (and unfair) to make sweeping statements about the effect on a 'normal' class that the presence of a special needs student would have.

I have already said that the resources should be in place to properly take care of special needs students. Those resources normally include extra tuition and extra (properly trained) staff to cater for them. The effect that would have on normal classwork should be negligible.

You certainly shouldn't 'segregate' students on the basis of their needs. That would have a negative psychological effect on the students concerned. Believe it or not, learning disabilities like Dyslexia or Dyspraxia etc. can be overcome by the correct teaching methods and tools.

seamus

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Maybe he needs to tell his son to take some responsibility for his own results.

Surey if the teaching as so bad this would have been noticeable by the son well before he took his exams and he could have asked to leave.Seeing as he was so concerned with his own education and it's cost (at least accrding to the article that is).

Well this is likely what any civil case would hinge upon. Not so much whether the student knew he was doing poorly, but whether the school notified the parent(s) of the student's poor performance and flagged that to them. And the level of interest the parent(s) took in the boy's education.

The contract here is between the school and the parent, so really whether the boy knew he was failing is kind of irrelevant - the school should address performance concerns with the parent (and vice-versa) and nobody should be relying solely on the student to tell them.

It's always fun to read between the lines though;

Dad drives trucks in the Middle East. Which means he's basically absent for most of the time.

He comments that he may as well have sent his son to the local comprehensive. Which illustrates that he believes academic performance is largely down to the school and not the child.

His son is now best friends with an Russian oligarch's son. And he counts that as a good thing. Presumably because he sees it as a pathway to a million-pound job, ignoring the likely pathway into corruption and illegal activities.

Mr Craddock, who is retired, said he was asked not to attend the school’s summer gathering,
....
“The school has followed our published complaints procedure to the letter and Mr Craddock has had every chance to present his case in the appropriate manner."

Two quotes which when placed together paint and obvious picture of what this guy has been doing up until he filed a civil case against the school.

So as much as we can play Devil's advocate about whether the school did what they were supposed to, it's pretty clear that this guy is a complete idiot who expected a school to raise his child for him and is now pissed that it turns out his son is an idiot like he is.

LoLth

1. This article is about a UK father suing a UK private school - how does this possibly relate to the Irish education system being dumbed down?

2. How are his parent more involved in his education now? he's studying at a college in Cheshire, maybe independant learning and practical subjects (like aboriculture and horticulture) are more suited to his talents rather than those taught at a high end private school? (assuming they dont teach horticulture).

3. Grades vary from year to year based on changes in teaching staff , changes in curriculum , differences in the students and of course luck of the draw on the topics that come up in the exam. If the teachers tried to predict the exam and were too tightly focused then, if they get it wrong, it can be terrible for the students.

4. the father was "absentee" because he was working as a truck driver in the middle east to provide what he thought was the best education for his child. Not the worst reason to be away from home (and he wasnt gone completely, he was back to attend the summer event in the school, nowhere does the article state that the father was uninvolved).

5. If the kid failed so badly it cannot have come as a complete shock. was he under any form of continuous assessment? did the son know he was struggling? was he arsed? did the school inform the parents of the sons academic performance prior to the exams? did they get involved?

as for points for E grades: why not? if they get 25% of the answers correct why not give a few points There is a lot more to learn on higher level courses so knowing 25% of the material is still something. If its unbalancing the points levels in universities will shift to accommodate them. As long as the points for a honours E is less than the points for an ordinary level C then it shouldnt disadvantage the ordinary level students that much and still make the gamble of studying a higher difficulty in a subject worthwhile.

uck51js9zml2yt

We don't know of h got bad grades in all his school exams. If so, what were his parents doing for the previous years in making sure he studied.

Smondie

LoLth wrote: »

1. This article is about a UK father suing a UK private school - how does this possibly relate to the Irish education system being dumbed down?

2. How are his parent more involved in his education now? he's studying at a college in Cheshire, maybe independant learning and practical subjects (like aboriculture and horticulture) are more suited to his talents rather than those taught at a high end private school? (assuming they dont teach horticulture).

3. Grades vary from year to year based on changes in teaching staff , changes in curriculum , differences in the students and of course luck of the draw on the topics that come up in the exam. If the teachers tried to predict the exam and were too tightly focused then, if they get it wrong, it can be terrible for the students.

4. the father was "absentee" because he was working as a truck driver in the middle east to provide what he thought was the best education for his child. Not the worst reason to be away from home (and he wasnt gone completely, he was back to attend the summer event in the school, nowhere does the article state that the father was uninvolved).

5. If the kid failed so badly it cannot have come as a complete shock. was he under any form of continuous assessment? did the son know he was struggling? was he arsed? did the school inform the parents of the sons academic performance prior to the exams? did they get involved?

as for points for E grades: why not? if they get 25% of the answers correct why not give a few points There is a lot more to learn on higher level courses so knowing 25% of the material is still something. If its unbalancing the points levels in universities will shift to accommodate them. As long as the points for a honours E is less than the points for an ordinary level C then it shouldnt disadvantage the ordinary level students that much and still make the gamble of studying a higher difficulty in a subject worthwhile.

1. See the thing about the e's
2. He is in the same country now
3. No where does it state it's because the teacher predicted the wrong things would come up in the exam. This is not the basis for the fathers complaint.
4. Still absent and unaware of his sons performance
5. Did the father not discuss this at the parent teacher meeting. He seems to have been oblivious to his sons performance.

As for E points, Come on....

Why not reward points for an F, after all you could get 24% right with an F.

3rdDegree

3rdDegree wrote: »

The father paid huge money for a service he feels was not delivered. The fact that results overall were poor and the principle acknowledges that improvements had to be made as a result kind of backs up the father's case. He seems to have made sacrifices and worked very hard to pay for the education he wanted his son to have. I think that commendable. He had every right to sue.

But that argument isn't nearly as palatable to some people, who would prefer to dismiss the son as stupid and the father as delusional, and hope they fail, instead of commending him for addressing poor teaching that compromises kids futures. Which, imo, is a pretty spiteful way of thinking.

It's always an eye opener to see peoples prejudices at work on these threads.

Sue Pa Key Pa

5 years of Summer, Christmas and mock exams and not even a hint that this was coming

steddyeddy

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

5 years of Summer, Christmas and mock exams and not even a hint that this was coming

That's the thing. Maybe the teachers weren't communicating this but something seems odd. The boy seemed to have the self awareness to know he didn't do well so I don't get how he wasn't aware of his failings several thousand pounds ago.

dudara

irelandrover wrote: »

Offering points for an E means that more people will take the higher level. A lot of people are capable of higher than a D at higher but drop down out of fear. So i'd look at it as not rewarding and E but encouraging more people to stick with the higher level.

I personally think that it's better to achieve well at a lower grade, than poorly (and let's face it, 25% - 39% is poor) at a higher grade. I'm not actually sure that awarding Es at the higher grades is meaningful.

CMOTDibbler

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

5 years of Summer, Christmas and mock exams and not even a hint that this was coming

I notice that it's a boarding school as well as a day school. I wonder which class of pupil the son was.

If a boarding student, you couldn't help but look askance at the school rather than the parents.

Riddle101

Not going to take sides on this. There is a chance that the student just didn't study enough or wasn't focused, and failed his exams due to poor performance as a student, and the father is blaming the school for his sons failure because he's living in denial. That or he's a chancer trying to get back his money because his son failed his exams. On the otherhand, if school had a bad record of poor performing students, then it might be down to the teachers there.

steddyeddy

3rdDegree wrote: »

The father paid huge money for a service he feels was not delivered. The fact that results overall were poor and the principle acknowledges that improvements had to be made as a result kind of backs up the father's case. He seems to have made sacrifices and worked very hard to pay for the education he wanted his son to have. I think that commendable. He had every right to sue.

But how do we know the son was academically gifted at all? Is it fair to push those who are sub par through the system?

looksee

steddyeddy wrote: »

But how do we know the son was academically gifted at all? Is it fair to push those who are sub par through the system?

We don't, and while the expression 'sub par' is not really appropriate, it is true that the only measure of education at the moment is academic. Not everyone is suited to academic education and if more respect and social acceptability were given to non-academic education - practical skills - there would be less of the tendency to try and force the square pegs of practical students into the round holes of academia.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

But how do we know the son was academically gifted at all? Is it fair to push those who are sub par through the system?

Referring to people as 'sub-par' is an awful way of putting it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

How children in Ireland are educated is awful. I've had 2 or 3 teachers that were genuinely passionate about the subject they thought AND were good at teaching. The rest seemed to not give a damn about the subject itself, the pupils or anything for that matter.

Awarding points for achieving an E is bloody idiotic. Let the failers fail and let the achievers achieve. Otherwise the point system is pointless.