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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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  • #2192
    tbiggertycome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭tbiggertycome


    Well Galway like Waterford ran at us from there own half back line particularly for our puckouts which was were they did a lot of damage and I think we would struggle without M Fennelly there to close that down he wasn't great in the first half v Galway and the first day v Waterford and they both got on top. Tipp will more often ping ball from their half back line through to their FF line and go for goals this I think means we won't feel the loss of Fennelly so much.

    On their puckouts Gleeson caused havoc against all our HB line in the air on both days but Tipp don't have anyone in their HF line to do that. I would expect Joyce in and he has dealt with Bonner before and very capably so, I would be confident of a repeat there. It's not that Bonner won't win ball but he won't win as much as he got up to now and that restricts he's influence on their attacks.

    Also what I couldn't understand is why didn't Joyce, Fogarty, Buckley or Walsh pull on the ball in the air against Gleeson. How did Fan Larkin mark the man mountain F Cummins pull on the thing before it gets to his hand none of this tapping it down sh**, pull hard and force him to use is other arm to protect his hand and see how good they are at it then. Before anyone jumps down my neck I'm not advocating the lads try hurt any opposition I'm talking about utilising what was a standard tool in every defenders tool kit but now none seem to use. It's fine if you're winning 50% or more of the aerial ball but when your opponent is clearing you out you have to try something else.


  • #2193
    Cornerback1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Cornerback1


    say Joyce, if he comes back in, will pick up Bonner Maher whether he plays in the centre of not.

    Cody and management set the team well up for the replay V Waterford - TJ and Richie out around the middle, getting on ball and looking to isolate Colin inside and to a lesser extent hit ball down the line to Liam Blanchfield.

    Mick Fennelly, when KK attacked, pushed right up on De Burca to not let him get free ball but when Waterford were on the attack, he immediately went into a defensive role and dropped back into the middle third to 'clog' up this area and made it hard for Deise runners to break through.

    This time it'll be different. Firstly and obviously, Mick will not be playing and to be honest I think he's the most influential player on the Kilkenny team. To me, he sets the tone and is in all essence the heartbeat of the team.

    In a way, it has given Cody and selectors 3 weeks to plan without Mick. I bet they will change it again and adapt the style to play V Tipperary. Will they look at the matchups of 2014 and replay? Probably and although personnel has changed, the majority of them are still there.

    As a KK supporter, I would be worried about their ff line getting handy ball. They weren't on top form V Galway which means they may be on top form in final - if they click. Will Bubbles start? Ryan seems to be going with more 'grafters' this year with the objective of getting the ball into the shooters to do the damage.

    I think we have a great chance of winning the aerial battle with T.J. and Wally under our own puckouts. As an aside, our half back line will be strong under their puckouts so we have a great platform to build on.

    In terms of our forward unit, who will start Blanchfield or JJ. Any other options? Again, Blanchfield is good in the air, a good target man and can score. The question is, can he replicate his performance and, more importantly, his scoring exploits from the replayed game?

    Who will come in for Mick? Lester? A workman like performance will be required in midfield to stop them firing in good early ball to their full forward line. Breen attacks well and chips in with scores so he needs to be put on the back foot the whole time.

    Will we try and isolate Colin at ff on Barry and give him loads of space to attack the ball and take Barry on? Will that work again? Their is a bit of inexperience in the Tipp team Mc Cormack and to a lesser extent Ronan Maher at chb.

    I can't wait to see the team and the matchups during the game. Tipp have been talked about all year, by a lot of people, as the team to beat but in a final V Kilkenny, they are carrying a lot of baggage. They won a tight game V Galway but we all know the experience of KK, on the big day, in Croke Park.


  • #2194
    C__MC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭C__MC


    Blanchfield on barret would be a miss match in terms of height, cody tried something similar in 2014 with W Walsh in which it didnt' work. C Fennelly in 2014 replay had a very good game inside in 2nd half,there seemed to be a lot of space. You would expect another big show from him. For all the talk that holden and prendergast are weak in the full back line, I have yet to see them exposed at all at this level.
    Will Murphy pick up Callanan? Tipp were poor last week, a lot of old failings reoccurred on them. Galway really should have won and I agree kk will happy enough to play tipp, It would have been tough to beat galway 4 times in two years.


  • #2195
    danganabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    C__MC wrote: »
    Blanchfield on barret would be a miss match in terms of height, cody tried something similar in 2014 with W Walsh in which it didnt' work. C Fennelly in 2014 replay had a very good game inside in 2nd half,there seemed to be a lot of space. You would expect another big show from him. For all the talk that holden and prendergast are weak in the full back line, I have yet to see them exposed at all at this level.
    Will Murphy pick up Callanan? Tipp were poor last week, a lot of old failings reoccurred on them. Galway really should have won and I agree kk will happy enough to play tipp, It would have been tough to beat galway 4 times in two years.

    As a Tipp man, please please please let this happen! It won't though, Murphy will pick up John McGrath. Murphy v McGrath will have a huge bearing on the game and will be a fascinating battle. Two quality hurlers with great battling qualities and a touch of class.


  • #2196
    danganabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Cornerback1 wrote: »
    In a way, it has given Cody and selectors 3 weeks to plan without Mick. I bet they will change it again and adapt the style to play V Tipperary. Will they look at the matchups of 2014 and replay? Probably and although personnel has changed, the majority of them are still there.

    Tipp will have 6 different players, that's 40% of the team is different, and of the 9 that remain only 4 will play in the positions they played in in 2014, add a new management team and a new approach to the game and I am completely at a loss how anyone could argue that they are largely the same?

    It remains to be seen if all those changes have actually been an improvement or not but to say that things are similar is well wide of the mark.


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  • #2197
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    Nothing at all that has happened over the past two decades should give us cause for concern. We may have lost matches over that time but we were nearly always competitive. The present squad is young but for the most part well tried and tested. I would have no fear about our ability to cope without Mick Fennelly. I am looking forward to a win for us.


  • #2198
    Cornerback1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Cornerback1


    danganabu wrote: »
    Cornerback1 wrote: »
    In a way, it has given Cody and selectors 3 weeks to plan without Mick. I bet they will change it again and adapt the style to play V Tipperary. Will they look at the matchups of 2014 and replay? Probably and although personnel has changed, the majority of them are still there.

    Tipp will have 6 different players, that's 40% of the team is different, and of the 9 that remain only 4 will play in the positions they played in in 2014, add a new management team and a new approach to the game and I am completely at a loss how anyone could argue that they are largely the same?

    It remains to be seen if all those changes have actually been an improvement or not but to say that things are similar is well wide of the mark.

    I said although personnel have changed, the majority are still there.

    As you stated 40% new possibly..that means at leat 60% that were there in 2014. That's a clear majority in anyone's language.

    Would you start Bubbles?


  • #2199
    Martin567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭Martin567


    Whiplash85 wrote: »
    The level of jeering and bating of Lar Corbett as he trudged off Nowlan park unable to bear any weight on his injured leg was disgusting.

    Disgusting lies. Didn't happen. (see post 2185 earlier)


  • #2200
    Cornerback1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Cornerback1


    Martin567 wrote: »
    Whiplash85 wrote: »
    The level of jeering and bating of Lar Corbett as he trudged off Nowlan park unable to bear any weight on his injured leg was disgusting.

    Disgusting lies. Didn't happen. (see post 2185 earlier)

    I think he's teying to create, what they call in the business, a 'siege mentality'.

    He should just watch the youtube clip of the incident.


  • #2201
    danganabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Cornerback1 wrote: »

    Would you start Bubbles?

    Absolutely, I was fully in agreement that he shouldn't start against Galway but he must start this game.

    He has had his disciplinary problems and the red card against Limerick had been coming, his punishment was a one match suspension, which we walked through and if allowed to walk back into a team which had performed to a man in his absence for basically 2 full games would have sent out all the wrong messages and he would have learnt nothing.

    Mick Ryan played it perfect, let him stew keep him on the bench and eventually let him off the hook, he will be bursting a gut in training the next few weeks trying to get back in the first 15.

    Discipline issue aside and possible question marks over his fitness ( looks a little over weight to me) he is still pure quality and we will need all the quality we can get, even KK's most ardent supporters will admit that a FF line of Bubbles, Seamie and John McGrath is a huge concern, it would be for any FB line tbh.


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  • #2202
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,103 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    danganabu wrote: »
    Absolutely, I was fully in agreement that he shouldn't start against Galway but he must start this game.

    He has had his disciplinary problems and the red card against Limerick had been coming, his punishment was a one match suspension, which we walked through and if allowed to walk back into a team which had performed to a man in his absence for basically 2 full games would have sent out all the wrong messages and he would have learnt nothing.

    Mick Ryan played it perfect, let him stew keep him on the bench and eventually let him off the hook, he will be bursting a gut in training the next few weeks trying to get back in the first 15.

    Discipline issue aside and possible question marks over his fitness ( looks a little over weight to me) he is still pure quality and we will need all the quality we can get, even KK's most ardent supporters will admit that a FF line of Bubbles, Seamie and John McGrath is a huge concern, it would be for any FB line tbh.
    The question for Kilkenny is how to starve your full forwards of ball, we're not likely to win the battle itself.


  • #2203
    dastardly00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,561 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    C__MC wrote: »
    For all the talk that holden and prendergast are weak in the full back line, I have yet to see them exposed at all at this level.

    The defeat to Clare in the league semi-final.

    Okay it wasn't a championship match and Paul Murphy wasn't playing... But, for me anyway, it shows that if things start going wrong in the full-back line, they can go badly wrong.


  • #2204
    danganabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »
    The question for Kilkenny is how to starve your full forwards of ball, we're not likely to win the battle itself.

    Absolutely, I mean for all are half forward lines endeavour they are not going to trouble the scoreboard, Noel McGrath the obvious exception and even Noel is hot and cold at this stage. But its for this very reason that Mick Fennelly's absence cannot be under estimated, if Tipp win midfield I can only see one outcome. But that is obviously easier said than done.

    Tipp have their concerns in the the FB line as well, Cathal Barrett had been having an outstanding year up until last Sunday where he really struggled aerially and Cody will not have missed that fact, KK have plenty of guys that could expose that, and as we all know Cody is very much of the ilk to ''hammer the hammer'' from a Tipp perspective the hope is that last SUnday was a blip in Barrett's case.


  • #2205
    Cornerback1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Cornerback1


    dastardly00 wrote: »
    C__MC wrote: »
    For all the talk that holden and prendergast are weak in the full back line, I have yet to see them exposed at all at this level.

    The defeat to Clare in the league semi-final.

    Okay it wasn't a championship match and Paul Murphy wasn't playing... But, for me anyway, it shows that if things start going wrong in the full-back line, they can go badly wrong.

    I think that Murphy coming off his line twice didn't help the full back line. Bit rash to be honest. It skewed the result. Not saying we'd have beat Clare on the day but it didn't help matters. He did it once in drawn game V Waterford.


  • #2206
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    Kilkenny have at least 5 that did not start in 2014 final. Shows that we have a young team and that it keeps being refreshed. That is one of the reasons we remain at the top.


  • #2207
    Charlie69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    unrealtime wrote: »
    Kilkenny have at least 5 that did not start in 2014 final. Shows that we have a young team and that it keeps being refreshed. That is one of the reasons we remain at the top.

    That's one way of looking at it, on the other hand surely you would prefer to have Jackie Tyrell(2014 version), JJ Delaney, Mick Fennelly and Richie Power on the starting fifteen for Sept 4th???

    Not to mention Henry Shefflin and Brian Hogan (started the drawn game) on the bench.


  • #2208
    unrealtime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 364 ✭✭unrealtime


    Tipp are in a bad place so.


  • #2209
    Charlie69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    unrealtime wrote: »
    Tipp are in a bad place so.
    Are they??? , as far as I can see Tipp are a hugely improved outfit compared to the 2014 team while we have regressed without a doubt. We're up against it this time I'm afraid.


  • #2210
    dubcat51
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭dubcat51


    All that matters is what happens on the day with the players selected.I For one have always felt we have players who can come in and perform given the chance.yes we might not be as srong as 14 but I dont see tipp being better than their 14 team.we know kk will perform (they always do)tipp are yet unproven when they chips are down.


  • #2211
    blackcard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭blackcard


    Comparing the two teams.
    Eoin Murphy v Darren Gleeson. No advantage.
    Paul Murphy v Cathal Barrett. No advantage
    Joey Holden v James Barry. Advantage Tipp
    Michael Cahill v Shane Prendergast
    Advantage Tipp
    Padraig Walsh v Seamus Kennedy
    Advantage KK
    Kieran Joyce v Ronan Maher. Advantage Tipp.
    Cillian Buckley v Pauric Maher. No advantage
    Conor Fogarty v Brendan Maher. No advantage
    Lester Ryan v Michael Breen. Advantage Tipp.
    Walter Walsh v Dan McCormack. Advantage KK
    Richie Hogan v Bonnar Maher. Advantage KK
    TJ Reid v Noel McGrath. Advantage KK.
    Liam Blanchfield v John McGrath. Advantage Tipp
    Colin Fennelly v Seamus Callinan. Advantage Tipp
    Eoin Larkin v John O'Dwyer
    Advantage Tipp.
    Bench. Advantage Tipp.
    Tipps to lose


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  • #2212
    dubcat51
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭dubcat51


    Barrett as good as paul murphy.ronan maher better than joyce.barry better than joey holden.Wouldnt agree with those .also its how you play as a team not as individuals.example walsh joyce buckley.(kk have not lost a competitive game when this line has started a game)


  • #2213
    mountgomery burns
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭mountgomery burns


    dubcat51 wrote: »
    Barrett as good as paul murphy.ronan maher better than joyce.barry better than joey holden.Wouldnt agree with those .also its how you play as a team not as individuals.example walsh joyce buckley.(kk have not lost a competitive game when this line has started a game)

    It's a wonder then that Cody didn't start Joyce in the replay.


  • #2214
    Cornerback1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 931 ✭✭✭Cornerback1


    dubcat51 wrote: »
    Barrett as good as paul murphy.ronan maher better than joyce.barry better than joey holden.Wouldnt agree with those .also its how you play as a team not as individuals.example walsh joyce buckley.(kk have not lost a competitive game when this line has started a game)

    I agree. Individual match ups are all well and good but at this level, it's down to a panel of at least 20. The team ethic will out usually.

    In some cases I actually counted up a newspaper players' rating and the losing team had one or two points more than the winning team. Strange but true, although probably just an oversight by the journalist/editor.

    Obviously a bit of magic by an individual will help but collectively it's all about how the teams perform on the day. A good bench also helps!!

    There is no doubt that both teams are even enough in terms of players but it'll depend on match ups, individual magic, team collective and a little bit of luck on the day.

    After the game, we'll all be saying this and that - Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing!!


  • #2215
    dubcat51
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭dubcat51


    mountgomery burns wrote: »
    It's a wonder then that Cody didn't start Joyce in the replay.

    He was injured.didnt make the 26 maych day squad.sure we will see him back gor the final.


  • #2216
    dastardly00
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,561 ✭✭✭✭dastardly00


    dubcat51 wrote: »
    He was injured.didnt make the 26 maych day squad.sure we will see him back gor the final.

    I didn't actually know that. What was his injury?


  • #2217
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,103 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    Didn't hear that either, presumed he was dropped because he was roasted?


  • #2218
    randd1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,306 ✭✭✭randd1


    Charlie69 wrote: »
    Are they??? , as far as I can see Tipp are a hugely improved outfit compared to the 2014 team while we have regressed without a doubt. We're up against it this time I'm afraid.

    While there's no doubt we've regressed a bit, it shouldn't be forgotten that this side is going for 3 in a row.

    Tipperary's improvement can only be measured against the best of what's out there in the AI series, as the quality of games they've faced in Munster the past few years has been shocking.

    Tipp were impressive in beating a Galway side that quite frankly were the better team but just didn't take their chances. It takes a very good side to win an AI SF when not playing well as Tipp did.

    But Galway were the better side, they physically dominated Tipp as well throughout the game. Given the 75 minutes of intensity and physicality from our lads the night before, there's little doubt in my mind that we can not only match but beat Tipp on that front.

    As I said, we have regressed a bit, but we're still going for 3 in a row. For me though Tipp's improvement is hardly that noticeable, they're not the same team as two years ago, and whereas Kilkenny have won the AI when they regressed, Tipp have won two Munsters of poor quality and scraped past a Galway side that were a better team than them.

    Ultimately the AI will tell a lot. While we've regressed a bit, Tipp have too and a lot further than what we did, and their improvement is based on the much further slide. Neither side have the same quality as two years ago, the only difference is we have the big scalp of the last two years.

    For me it's hard to judge Tipp based on the poverty of the Munster championship. At least in Leinster, Kilkenny have faced Galway who are the third best side in the country and the ones most likely to take out the top two, and even at that we've had it much easier against them than Tipp. The SF was the one high quality knockout match in which Tipp have had to dig deep to win since the the Galway game of 2014 in the early rounds.

    Have Tipp have improved enough to win? I think they're more direct and hard working but I would have still my doubts given their record against the better sides the last few years, but they certainly look like a better goal threat than the last few years too, and I think that might be difference.


  • #2219
    brookville
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,747 ✭✭✭brookville


    Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »
    Didn't hear that either, presumed he was dropped because he was roasted?

    There was talk he was injured but he was part of the 26 on the night and he was warming up at different times along with the other subs.This is a great chance for tipp to get the kk monkey off their back but it'll take a huge performance from them.If we can somehow keep tabs on their full foward line we have a great chance.the match ups will be crucial and the team selection will be intresting.


  • #2220
    dubcat51
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭dubcat51


    Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »
    Didn't hear that either, presumed he was dropped because he was roasted?
    No chance of being roasted playing on bonner maher.joyce has always had his number.


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  • #2221
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,103 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    dubcat51 wrote: »
    No chance of being roasted playing on bonner maher.joyce has always had his number.

    I mean her was roasted against Gleeson the first day against Waterford, presumed that was why he was dropped, not because of an injury. Didn't hear anything about that.

    Maher is more suited to Joyce's style of play alright.


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