Tenants in property when I took ownership

gkelly88 · 10-08-2016 10:49PM #1

Hey folks
I've recently bought an apartment off receivers at auction and got the keys last week. There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. I contacted them to give them my contact details and asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

I'm wondering what are my rights as the landlord with entering the property? Can I do so without their permission? Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

Thanks in advance

ED E · 11-08-2016 12:14AM

There's a reason why most people wait for vacant possession.

The tenants rights persist despite the change in ownership, if they're resident long enough then they will have Part IV rights. Others will chime in as to who is obligated to provide this information.

wench · 11-08-2016 12:23AM

You cannot enter without their permission. It's prime holiday season, they may be away, so give it more than 7 days!
They don't need a lease to have a valid tenancy. Get yourself over to the Residential Tenancies Board page, and start reading before you land yourself in trouble...

http://rtb.ie/landlords/rights-responsibilities-obligations

the_syco · 11-08-2016 04:38AM

gkelly88 wrote: »

I've recently bought an apartment off receivers at auction and got the keys last week. There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. I contacted them to give them my contact details and asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

Bare in mind that you may have bought a lemon. The previous owner may have been unable to pay the mortgage if the tenants had stopped paying the rent.

Advise you talk to the neighbours.

IRAC War · 11-08-2016 06:51AM

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions, however usually when selling one would issue a notice and gain vacant possession to attract a higher price.

As stated above they will have a 'lease' in regards to having all the rights under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. I personally would call round - which there is no issue doing so long as you treat yourself as a guest, which essentially you are in someone else's home, and see if you can get an answer at the door. Go from there.

If it turns out you've non-paying tenants then you will have a legal battle in front of you it's worth engaging a solicitor even at the RTB stage (you deal with the RTB in the first instance). You're probably looking at about 18 months to evict and potentially quite a bit of damage to the property. If you're intending to rent it out going forward most of your loss can be offset against future tax - speak to an accountant in this regard for a steer.

Obviously these are the potential pitfalls buying at auction, that's usually reflected in the price though so headaches side business is business.

4ensic15 · 11-08-2016 08:22AM

gkelly88 wrote: »

Hey folks
There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

Thanks in advance

This is nonsense.This is something you should have enquired about before the auction. Did you find out when the letting started? Did you find out how much the rent is? Did you engage a solicitor to act for you in the transaction? Was the solicitor (if any) competent?
You will need competent and likely expensive legal advice before you get into this any deeper. If you don't you will find yourself unable to get possession or collect rent for a very lengthy period.

Mrs OBumble · 11-08-2016 08:48AM

Why do you want to evict them - do you require the place for yourself or a family member to live in? Do you intend to do major renovations? Apart from that, you most likely have no grounds to evict them (provided, of course, that they're paying the rent - and most are).

68 lost souls · 11-08-2016 10:41AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why do you want to evict them - do you require the place for yourself or a family member to live in? Do you intend to do major renovations? Apart from that, you most likely have no grounds to evict them (provided, of course, that they're paying the rent - and most are).

He didnt say he wanted to evict them. He wants to put in place the proper lease/rent/agreements that should come with a rental

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 02:37PM

I fear for you on this...... Allsops is the first red flag. Used in the main to dispose of trouble assets.

The second is non vacant possession. Selling is a 100% legal reason for terminating a tenancy. The fact that this was never done would highly suggest you have problem tenants.

You're looking at the bones of two years before you can physically remove them if so.

Good luck

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-08-2016 02:38PM

This post has been deleted.

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 02:43PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Unfortunately, you assume wrong.

OldMrBrennan83 · 11-08-2016 02:49PM

This post has been deleted.

Mrs OBumble · 11-08-2016 02:50PM

68 lost souls wrote: »

He didnt say he wanted to evict them. He wants to put in place the proper lease/rent/agreements that should come with a rental

He did, specifically:

gkelly88 wrote: »

Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

A lease is irrelevant after the first six months of a tenancy, when Part IV rights apply.

The other documents (copy of the rental agreement, contact details for the tenants, inventory) should have been provided as part of the sale. It should not be up to the tenant to provide them.

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 02:56PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

He did, specifically:

A lease is irrelevant after the first six months of a tenancy, when Part IV rights apply.

.

It is not irrelevant. Are you mad? It defines the relationship between you and the landlord. Part IV doesnt change the terms of the lease in any way. If you breach a clause in a part IV lease your liable to have said lease terminated. Therefore, if you dont pay the rent, or say have pets, you are in breach of your Part IV lease. The fact that a copy wasnt supplied makes me even more concerned for the OP.

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 03:03PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Agreed.

No rent? 14 day notice. Still no rent? 28 Day Notice. Ignored? PRTB case (4 - 6 months if they dont appeal - they will). Appeal - 2 months. You won? Brilliant. Have they moved out, of course they havent. Make application to the courts. 6 months? You win, wait for court order to come through. Its a minimum of 18 months before the bailiffs go knocking.

And the real kicker - your own taxes pay for all of it while you are not earning income. They are eventually made homeless and get full support of the state.

:mad:

68 lost souls · 11-08-2016 03:55PM

gkelly88 wrote: »

asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

I'm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

He did, specifically:

A lease is irrelevant after the first six months of a tenancy, when Part IV rights apply.

The other documents (copy of the rental agreement, contact details for the tenants, inventory) should have been provided as part of the sale. It should not be up to the tenant to provide them.

Yes but I believe this part is his main query rather than looking to evict. To me it seems the reason he asks about eviction is because the tenants are already not playing ball.

gkelly88 · 11-08-2016 04:04PM

68 lost souls wrote: »

Yes but I believe this part is his main query rather than looking to evict. To me it seems the reason he asks about eviction is because the tenants are already not playing ball.

Exactly!!!! I don't intend evicting. It's only a query because they're not getting in contact.

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 04:48PM

gkelly88 wrote: »

Exactly!!!! I don't intend evicting. It's only a query because they're not getting in contact.

My advice is to send a letter by registered post requesting to make contact at the property an agreed date in say two weeks. Supply all your contact details.

Tell them you will be changing the locks and that you will supply them with a new key.

Keep a copy of this on file. If they do contact you sweet. If they dont well, go and change the locks. If they are not there, leave a note on the door with your contact details saying you will come and let them in and give them the key when they return.

Baralis1 · 11-08-2016 05:44PM

It's surely illegal to change the locks on another person's home without their permission?

randomCluster · 11-08-2016 05:49PM

You bought an investment property without doing a proper inspection. Or any inspection. You're now on boards seeking advice. Get your act together and talk to a solicitor.

Smondie · 11-08-2016 05:49PM

Baralis1 wrote: »

It's surely illegal to change the locks on another person's home without their permission?

The new owner could have concerns about the number of keys in circulation for the property and see it as a security issue. As long reasonable noticed is given for the maintenance to be carried out and the tenants given the chance to respond, i'm guessing it would be ok? Just make sure they are not on a 2 week holiday!

Just guessing here.

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 06:18PM

Baralis1 wrote: »

It's surely illegal to change the locks on another person's home without their permission?

It's your property. You can do as you please as long as you don't prevent their access. It's not an eviction.

Baralis1 · 11-08-2016 08:04PM

Askthe EA wrote: »

It's your property. You can do as you please as long as you don't prevent their access. It's not an eviction.

Incorrect! You cannot enter the property let alone change the locks without their permission. If you enter the property without permission, they have every right to prosecute you for trespassing

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 08:05PM

Baralis1 wrote: »

Incorrect! You cannot enter the property let alone change the locks without their permission. If you enter the property without permission, they have every right to prosecute you for trespassing

You can't trespass on your own property.

Baralis1 · 11-08-2016 08:07PM

Askthe EA wrote: »

You can't trespass on your own property.

Yes you can. If you have sitting tenants, it's their home and you have no right to enter without permission

Smondie · 11-08-2016 08:10PM

Baralis1 wrote: »

Askthe EA wrote: »

You can't trespass on your own property.

Yes you can. If you have sitting tenants, it's their home and you have no right to enter without permission

Unless there's a gas or a water leak or some other emergency...

Baralis1 · 11-08-2016 08:13PM

Yes, in case of emergency they could enter

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 08:13PM

Smondie wrote: »

Unless there's a gas or a water leak or some other emergency...

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

lollpop · 11-08-2016 08:19PM

Askthe EA wrote: »

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

The landlord has requested an appointment. The tenant has to agree to it.

Baralis1 · 11-08-2016 08:19PM

Askthe EA wrote: »

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

The tenant has to agree to the appointment, the landlord cannot just let himself in.
However, the tenant has an obligation to allow an inspection at a mutually agreed time.

The landlord cannot just do what he wants as per your earlier post

Askthe EA · 11-08-2016 08:24PM

Baralis1 wrote: »

The tenant has to agree to the appointment, the landlord cannot just let himself in.
However, the tenant has an obligation to allow an inspection at a mutually agreed time.

The landlord cannot just do what he wants as per your earlier post

The point of the previous posts was the tenants are not making contact despite his best efforts. If you think that a landlord cannot access his property just because all his attempts at making contact with them are ignored then that's just daft.

Tenants in property when I took ownership

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