Tenants in property when I took ownership

gkelly88

Hey folks
I've recently bought an apartment off receivers at auction and got the keys last week. There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. I contacted them to give them my contact details and asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

I'm wondering what are my rights as the landlord with entering the property? Can I do so without their permission? Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

Thanks in advance

ED E

There's a reason why most people wait for vacant possession.


The tenants rights persist despite the change in ownership, if they're resident long enough then they will have Part IV rights. Others will chime in as to who is obligated to provide this information.

wench

You cannot enter without their permission. It's prime holiday season, they may be away, so give it more than 7 days!
They don't need a lease to have a valid tenancy. Get yourself over to the Residential Tenancies Board page, and start reading before you land yourself in trouble...

http://rtb.ie/landlords/rights-responsibilities-obligations

the_syco

gkelly88 wrote: »

I've recently bought an apartment off receivers at auction and got the keys last week. There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. I contacted them to give them my contact details and asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

Bare in mind that you may have bought a lemon. The previous owner may have been unable to pay the mortgage if the tenants had stopped paying the rent.

Advise you talk to the neighbours.

IRAC War

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions, however usually when selling one would issue a notice and gain vacant possession to attract a higher price.

As stated above they will have a 'lease' in regards to having all the rights under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. I personally would call round - which there is no issue doing so long as you treat yourself as a guest, which essentially you are in someone else's home, and see if you can get an answer at the door. Go from there.

If it turns out you've non-paying tenants then you will have a legal battle in front of you it's worth engaging a solicitor even at the RTB stage (you deal with the RTB in the first instance). You're probably looking at about 18 months to evict and potentially quite a bit of damage to the property. If you're intending to rent it out going forward most of your loss can be offset against future tax - speak to an accountant in this regard for a steer.

Obviously these are the potential pitfalls buying at auction, that's usually reflected in the price though so headaches side business is business.

4ensic15

gkelly88 wrote: »

Hey folks
There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

Thanks in advance

This is nonsense.This is something you should have enquired about before the auction. Did you find out when the letting started? Did you find out how much the rent is? Did you engage a solicitor to act for you in the transaction? Was the solicitor (if any) competent?
You will need competent and likely expensive legal advice before you get into this any deeper. If you don't you will find yourself unable to get possession or collect rent for a very lengthy period.

Mrs OBumble

Why do you want to evict them - do you require the place for yourself or a family member to live in? Do you intend to do major renovations? Apart from that, you most likely have no grounds to evict them (provided, of course, that they're paying the rent - and most are).

68 lost souls

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why do you want to evict them - do you require the place for yourself or a family member to live in? Do you intend to do major renovations? Apart from that, you most likely have no grounds to evict them (provided, of course, that they're paying the rent - and most are).

He didnt say he wanted to evict them. He wants to put in place the proper lease/rent/agreements that should come with a rental

Askthe EA

I fear for you on this...... Allsops is the first red flag. Used in the main to dispose of trouble assets.

The second is non vacant possession. Selling is a 100% legal reason for terminating a tenancy. The fact that this was never done would highly suggest you have problem tenants.

You're looking at the bones of two years before you can physically remove them if so.

Good luck

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Askthe EA

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Unfortunately, you assume wrong.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

Mrs OBumble

68 lost souls wrote: »

He didnt say he wanted to evict them. He wants to put in place the proper lease/rent/agreements that should come with a rental

He did, specifically:

gkelly88 wrote: »

Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

A lease is irrelevant after the first six months of a tenancy, when Part IV rights apply.

The other documents (copy of the rental agreement, contact details for the tenants, inventory) should have been provided as part of the sale. It should not be up to the tenant to provide them.

Askthe EA

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

He did, specifically:



A lease is irrelevant after the first six months of a tenancy, when Part IV rights apply.

.

It is not irrelevant. Are you mad? It defines the relationship between you and the landlord. Part IV doesnt change the terms of the lease in any way. If you breach a clause in a part IV lease your liable to have said lease terminated. Therefore, if you dont pay the rent, or say have pets, you are in breach of your Part IV lease. The fact that a copy wasnt supplied makes me even more concerned for the OP.

Askthe EA

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Agreed.

No rent? 14 day notice. Still no rent? 28 Day Notice. Ignored? PRTB case (4 - 6 months if they dont appeal - they will). Appeal - 2 months. You won? Brilliant. Have they moved out, of course they havent. Make application to the courts. 6 months? You win, wait for court order to come through. Its a minimum of 18 months before the bailiffs go knocking.

And the real kicker - your own taxes pay for all of it while you are not earning income. They are eventually made homeless and get full support of the state.

:mad:

68 lost souls

gkelly88 wrote: »

asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

I'm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

He did, specifically:



A lease is irrelevant after the first six months of a tenancy, when Part IV rights apply.

The other documents (copy of the rental agreement, contact details for the tenants, inventory) should have been provided as part of the sale. It should not be up to the tenant to provide them.

Yes but I believe this part is his main query rather than looking to evict. To me it seems the reason he asks about eviction is because the tenants are already not playing ball.

gkelly88

68 lost souls wrote: »

Yes but I believe this part is his main query rather than looking to evict. To me it seems the reason he asks about eviction is because the tenants are already not playing ball.

Exactly!!!! I don't intend evicting. It's only a query because they're not getting in contact.

Askthe EA

gkelly88 wrote: »

Exactly!!!! I don't intend evicting. It's only a query because they're not getting in contact.

My advice is to send a letter by registered post requesting to make contact at the property an agreed date in say two weeks. Supply all your contact details.

Tell them you will be changing the locks and that you will supply them with a new key.

Keep a copy of this on file. If they do contact you sweet. If they dont well, go and change the locks. If they are not there, leave a note on the door with your contact details saying you will come and let them in and give them the key when they return.

Baralis1

It's surely illegal to change the locks on another person's home without their permission?

randomCluster

You bought an investment property without doing a proper inspection. Or any inspection. You're now on boards seeking advice. Get your act together and talk to a solicitor.

Smondie

Baralis1 wrote: »

It's surely illegal to change the locks on another person's home without their permission?

The new owner could have concerns about the number of keys in circulation for the property and see it as a security issue. As long reasonable noticed is given for the maintenance to be carried out and the tenants given the chance to respond, i'm guessing it would be ok? Just make sure they are not on a 2 week holiday!

Just guessing here.

Askthe EA

Baralis1 wrote: »

It's surely illegal to change the locks on another person's home without their permission?

It's your property. You can do as you please as long as you don't prevent their access. It's not an eviction.

Baralis1

Askthe EA wrote: »

It's your property. You can do as you please as long as you don't prevent their access. It's not an eviction.

Incorrect! You cannot enter the property let alone change the locks without their permission. If you enter the property without permission, they have every right to prosecute you for trespassing

Askthe EA

Baralis1 wrote: »

Incorrect! You cannot enter the property let alone change the locks without their permission. If you enter the property without permission, they have every right to prosecute you for trespassing

You can't trespass on your own property.

Baralis1

Askthe EA wrote: »

You can't trespass on your own property.

Yes you can. If you have sitting tenants, it's their home and you have no right to enter without permission

Smondie

Baralis1 wrote: »

Askthe EA wrote: »

You can't trespass on your own property.

Yes you can. If you have sitting tenants, it's their home and you have no right to enter without permission

Unless there's a gas or a water leak or some other emergency...

Baralis1

Yes, in case of emergency they could enter

Askthe EA

Smondie wrote: »

Unless there's a gas or a water leak or some other emergency...

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

lollpop

Askthe EA wrote: »

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

The landlord has requested an appointment. The tenant has to agree to it.

Baralis1

Askthe EA wrote: »

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

The tenant has to agree to the appointment, the landlord cannot just let himself in.
However, the tenant has an obligation to allow an inspection at a mutually agreed time.

The landlord cannot just do what he wants as per your earlier post

Askthe EA

Baralis1 wrote: »

The tenant has to agree to the appointment, the landlord cannot just let himself in.
However, the tenant has an obligation to allow an inspection at a mutually agreed time.

The landlord cannot just do what he wants as per your earlier post

The point of the previous posts was the tenants are not making contact despite his best efforts. If you think that a landlord cannot access his property just because all his attempts at making contact with them are ignored then that's just daft.

Uncle Ben

gkelly88 wrote: »

Hey folks
I've recently bought an apartment off receivers at auction and got the keys last week. There are tenants in situ with no lease in place. I contacted them to give them my contact details and asked them to contact me within 7 days to arrange for me to call and see them regarding rent collection, putting a lease in place, doing an inventory, etc. But they haven't made any contact.

I'm wondering what are my rights as the landlord with entering the property? Can I do so without their permission? Also seeing these tenants have lived there without a lease, what are my options if I want to evict? Are they automatically entitled to a lease?

Thanks in advance

Don't mind me asking but have you ever set foot in the place?

Baralis1

Askthe EA wrote: »

The point of the previous posts was the tenants are not making contact despite his best efforts. If you think that a landlord cannot access his property just because all his attempts at making contact with them are ignored then that's just daft.

He can't, he needs to consult with a solicitor and follow the legal route.
Any action outside of this may harm his legal case in the future.

Askthe EA

Baralis1 wrote: »

He can't, he needs to consult with a solicitor and follow the legal route

He can. I've dealt with this exact situation. We got legal advice and did exactly as I suggested above. If one party refuses to engage despite your best efforts then any court will find in your favour.

Having said that, the registered letter flushed them out. I'd definitely agree that legal opinion be sought mind you.

Actually, OP, are you sure they are still there?

Askthe EA

This situation has intrigued me so I did some digging and found this from an article in the IT by a property expert.

You as a landlord are entitled to access the dwelling for the purpose of an inspection. A tenant’s obligation under Section 16(c) of the Tenancies Act 2004-2015 is “to allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any other person or persons acting on the landlord’s behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling”.

If you wish to inspect the dwelling then you must agree a date and time with the tenant. However if the tenant refuses you access to the dwelling, they will be in breach of tenant obligations. A tenant is entitled to a reasonable time to remedy a breach of obligations.
You should first write to your tenants outlining the breach and request a mutually agreeable time for the inspection.
If the tenants do not remedy the breach within the reasonable period specified in the notice you must issue a 28-day notice of termination for breach of tenant obligations.

Baralis1

Askthe EA wrote: »

This situation has intrigued me so I did some digging and found this from an article in the IT by a property expert.

You as a landlord are entitled to access the dwelling for the purpose of an inspection. A tenant’s obligation under Section 16(c) of the Tenancies Act 2004-2015 is “to allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any other person or persons acting on the landlord’s behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling”.

If you wish to inspect the dwelling then you must agree a date and time with the tenant. However if the tenant refuses you access to the dwelling, they will be in breach of tenant obligations. A tenant is entitled to a reasonable time to remedy a breach of obligations.
You should first write to your tenants outlining the breach and request a mutually agreeable time for the inspection.
If the tenants do not remedy the breach within the reasonable period specified in the notice you must issue a 28-day notice of termination for breach of tenant obligations.

Yes, it doesn't say anywhere there that you can enter the property without agreement with the tenant (excluding emergencies). After the notice period the dispute moves on to the PTRB etc

4ensic15

Baralis1 wrote: »

Yes, it doesn't say anywhere there that you can enter the property without agreement with the tenant (excluding emergencies). After the notice period the dispute moves on to the PTRB etc

Only in this case the o/p can't go to the RTB.

Baralis1

4ensic15 wrote: »

Only in this case the o/p can't go to the RTB.

Why not? Is he not automatically the landlord after buying the property? I'm curious too if the op has ever actually viewed the property before buying

4ensic15

Baralis1 wrote: »

Why not? Is he not automatically the landlord after buying the property? I'm curious too if the op has ever actually viewed the property before buying

He hasn't registered as owner has he?

jsd1004

randomCluster wrote: »

You bought an investment property without doing a proper inspection. Or any inspection. You're now on boards seeking advice. Get your act together and talk to a solicitor.

+1 and a solicitor is going to cost you a fortune

IRAC War

Askthe EA wrote: »

This situation has intrigued me so I did some digging and found this from an article in the IT by a property expert.

You as a landlord are entitled to access the dwelling for the purpose of an inspection. A tenant’s obligation under Section 16(c) of the Tenancies Act 2004-2015 is “to allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any other person or persons acting on the landlord’s behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling”.

If you wish to inspect the dwelling then you must agree a date and time with the tenant. However if the tenant refuses you access to the dwelling, they will be in breach of tenant obligations. A tenant is entitled to a reasonable time to remedy a breach of obligations.
You should first write to your tenants outlining the breach and request a mutually agreeable time for the inspection.
If the tenants do not remedy the breach within the reasonable period specified in the notice you must issue a 28-day notice of termination for breach of tenant obligations.

Yes but to clarify on your earlier erroneous statements you can't resort to self help. Suggesting as much with a username that connotes that you should know what you're posting about is a tad irresponsible.

OP Don't change the locks or enter the property without seeking proper legal advice. Without wanting to sound melodramatic there is a constitutional right in Ireland to inviolability of the dwelling, notwithstanding it being owned (a concept not properly understood it seems in the concept of real property) by someone else and event the rent not being paid. While I don't wish to continue the head banging in regard to you having dared by a investment property - these are all things which you have to factor into getting involved in this game.

K.Flyer

Sounds like a nightmare.
If the tenants were never previously registered with PRTB, and do not engage with the O.P. whatsoever, what are the PRTB going to be able to do for him? Nothing as far as I can see.
Is there no time frame as to when an owner of a let property, after no communications from tenants, despite all attempts, can enter the property on the presumption that the tenants may have vacated?

Sad Professor

K.Flyer wrote: »

Sounds like a nightmare.
If the tenants were never previously registered with PRTB, and do not engage with the O.P. whatsoever, what are the PRTB going to be able to do for him? Nothing as far as I can see.
Is there no time frame as to when an owner of a let property, after no communications from tenants, despite all attempts, can enter the property on the presumption that the tenants may have vacated?

I think this can be established without the landlord entering the property.

4ensic15

Sad Professor wrote: »

I think this can be established without the landlord entering the property.

How?

Smondie

4ensic15 wrote: »

How?

Look in the Windows?

K.Flyer

Smondie wrote: »

Look in the Windows?

Thats would not be sufficient. Anyway how are you going to look in through the windows of an apartment that may be on a 3rd or 4th floor or higher.

4ensic15

Smondie wrote: »

Look in the Windows?

What if the curtains are drawn, blinds closed?

Smondie

4ensic15 wrote: »

What if the curtains are drawn, blinds closed?

If you have tried to contact them for over a month with no response and the curtains drawn the whole time, call the cops.

They lying dead inside

Sad Professor

K.Flyer wrote: »

Thats would not be sufficient. Anyway how are you going to look in through the windows of an apartment that may be on a 3rd or 4th floor or higher.

Pfft! Get a rope and some climbing gear. :pac:

Landlords these days… they don't want to do anything for the tenant.

foggy_lad

Askthe EA wrote: »

You can't trespass on your own property.

Once there is a sitting tenant it is as good as their property, All tenants have the right to peaceful enjoyment of the property they rent/lease. A man's HOME is his Castle!

Smondie wrote: »

Unless there's a gas or a water leak or some other emergency...

A legal minefield which could land the Landlord in hot water with the Gardai as well as in the courts!

A gas/water leak or other emergency would have to be backed up with statements by the gas company, plumbers etc and if using the old "I thought the tenant was hurt" defence the Gardai would have to be called to enter the property.

Askthe EA wrote: »

It works both ways though.

A tenant must;

Give the landlord access (by appointment) for routine inspections.

The landlord has made an appointment.

The landlord must wait for the tenant to get in touch, for all they know the tenant might be in hospital or away for a few weeks.

Askthe EA wrote: »

The point of the previous posts was the tenants are not making contact despite his best efforts. If you think that a landlord cannot access his property just because all his attempts at making contact with them are ignored then that's just daft.

No best efforts have been used yet!

Askthe EA wrote: »

This situation has intrigued me so I did some digging and found this from an article in the IT by a property expert.

Your time would have been better spent reading the Residential Tenancies Act

You as a landlord are entitled to access the dwelling for the purpose of an inspection. A tenant’s obligation under Section 16(c) of the Tenancies Act 2004-2015 is “to allow, at reasonable intervals, the landlord, or any other person or persons acting on the landlord’s behalf, access to the dwelling (on a date and time agreed in advance with the tenant) for the purposes of inspecting the dwelling”.

If you wish to inspect the dwelling then you must agree a date and time with the tenant. However if the tenant refuses you access to the dwelling, they will be in breach of tenant obligations. A tenant is entitled to a reasonable time to remedy a breach of obligations.
You should first write to your tenants outlining the breach and request a mutually agreeable time for the inspection.
If the tenants do not remedy the breach within the reasonable period specified in the notice you must issue a 28-day notice of termination for breach of tenant obligations.

In a case where the tenant has simply not responded they have NOT refused access to the landlord, they have simply not been in a position to respond to the request.

4ensic15 wrote: »

Originally Posted by Sad Professor View Post
I think this can be established without the landlord entering the property.

How?

Best way of getting in touch with absent tenants is to arrive at the property and cut the grass and do any other garden maintenance and check the wheelie bins are not overflowing with rubbish.

Under no circumstances enter the Dwelling or open any gate or door that is locked unless there is very obvious evidence of a REAL emergency(in which case neighbours will already have acted!).

Bring with you a number of copies of the written request to inspect the property and asking that the tenant contact you to arrange a time and date that suits you both. Place these into A4 plastic pockets and attach them to several places around the property including the front gate, the front window, attach one across the door jamb of both the front and back(only if you have access to the back) doors to make a seal, photograph each notice as you place it showing the date it was placed, place one through the letterbox.

In the letter you should ask them to contact you and possibly inform them that you wish to meet your new tenants in order to regularise the agreement with them, also add that you need to hear from them within 28 days of the date of the letter and that you will enter the property 28 days from that final date if you do not hear from them.