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Would you be in favour of a border poll?

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    #1382
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Ditto.

    The paramilitarist rethoric of unionist parlimentarians, Bonar Law and Carson (Bonar Law was well aware and knew what Unionists would do if they got control btw), the thinking of L. George, The Boundary Commission PR all designed to stop Unionists from self determining.
    All facts presented...what have you presented only wishful hindsight.

    As somebody has said, one of the real reasons Unionism doesnt want a debate, the deep shame and denial of the facts of their past.


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    #1383
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The paramilitarist rethoric of unionist parlimentarians, Bonar Law and Carson (Bonar Law was well aware and knew what Unionists would do if they got control btw), the thinking of L. George, The Boundary Commission PR all designed to stop Unionists from self determining.
    All facts presented...what have you presented only wishful hindsight.

    As somebody has said, one of the real reasons Unionism doesnt want a debate, the deep shame and denial of the facts of their past.
    Except unionists did self determine to leave the UK.

    What you're doing is expressing an opinion, a reading of history that suits your bias. I'm stating fact, Ireland was partitioned because two groups with weapons threatened war if they both didn't get their way.


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    #1384
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Has no impact on my life at all. Or it won't once we leave. I'd vote the same again.

    It will dude.
    Nope. Delighted we are leaving.


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    #1385
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Ditto.

    The paramilitarist rethoric of unionist parlimentarians, Bonar Law and Carson (Bonar Law was well aware and knew what Unionists would do if they got control btw), the thinking of L. George, The Boundary Commission PR all designed to stop Unionists from self determining.
    All facts presented...what have you presented only wishful hindsight.

    As somebody has said, one of the real reasons Unionism doesnt want a debate, the deep shame and denial of the facts of their past.
    Why do Irish Republicans whine on about events which happened over 100 years ago. It really is time they accepted the situation as it is.


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    #1386
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Except unionists did self determine to leave the UK.

    What you're doing is expressing an opinion, a reading of history that suits your bias. I'm stating fact, Ireland was partitioned because two groups with weapons threatened war if they both didn't get their way.

    And to underline the absence of facts to back up what you said 'That Unionists were granted self determination' you switch tack in the hope nobody notices. :D:D:D

    BL and Carson using paramilitarist threats in parliament is not an opinion it is fact. Law was accused by some of treason for some of the stuff he said.

    Lloyd george's position is not an opinion it is a fact.
    The reason for the setting up of the Boundary Commission is not an opinion but again, a fact.
    Ditto, the particular reason PR was to be used in the 6 counties.

    All designed because Britain was only too aware what Unionists would do if they got control. Do you really think Unionists were given their own statelet to turn into a sectarian suprematist hellhole which would one day implode? Really? Can you show were and when that happened in history?


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    #1387
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Some people are better just ignored folks because thier primary motivation is to wind people up in the hope they'll react in contravention of the boards.ie charter and be banned.

    I guess in the post Section 31 era, on a relatively free internet discussion forum, it's an attempt at censorship by proxy via WUMing.
    .


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    #1388
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    .

    I think he is doing a service to anybody who needs an introduction to Unionist thinking or doublethink.


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    #1389
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I think he is doing a service to anybody who needs an introduction to Unionist thinking or doublethink.

    I guess that's another way of looking at it.


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    #1390
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And to underline the absence of facts to back up what you said 'That Unionists were granted self determination' you switch tack in the hope nobody notices. :D:D:D

    BL and Carson using paramilitarist threats in parliament is not an opinion it is fact. Law was accused by some of treason for some of the stuff he said.

    Lloyd george's position is not an opinion it is a fact.
    The reason for the setting up of the Boundary Commission is not an opinion but again, a fact.
    Ditto, the particular reason PR was to be used in the 6 counties.

    All designed because Britain was only too aware what Unionists would do if they got control. Do you really think Unionists were given their own statelet to turn into a sectarian suprematist hellhole which would one day implode? Really? Can you show were and when that happened in history?
    That Unionists and Nationalists threatened violence if they didn't get what they wanted is not something I disagree with, I disagree with your assertion that the existence of Northern Ireland doesn't represent Unionist self determination.

    An entity created created for the sole purpose to allow the maximum possible number of Unionists stay in the United Kingdom.


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    #1391
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    That Unionists and Nationalists threatened violence if they didn't get what they wanted is not something I disagree with, I disagree with your assertion that the existence of Northern Ireland doesn't represent Unionist self determination.

    An entity created created for the sole purpose to allow the maximum possible number of Unionists stay in the United Kingdom.

    Unionists and nationalists rejected that when it was proposed.
    And it was NEVER intended or granted for unionist self determination. Hence PR and the boundary commission. That unionists took it and self determined it as a protestant state for protestant people is what caused all the problems.


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    #1392
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Unionists and nationalists rejected that when it was proposed.
    And it was NEVER intended or granted for unionist self determination. Hence PR and the boundary commission. That unionists took it and self determined it as a protestant state for protestant people is what caused all the problems.
    But it was, I've repeated this multiple times now. Northern Ireland was brought into existence to allow unionists to stay in the United Kingdom to prevent civil war, it's borders were shaped to encompass the maximum number of unionists without taking in too many nationalists.

    Both nationalists and unionists were given a slice of the pie to pursue their self determination, unionists in the Union, nationalists outside.

    Unfortunately some nationalists couldn't accept anything other than full unuonist capitulation...


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    #1393
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But it was, I've repeated this multiple times now. Northern Ireland was brought into existence to allow unionists to stay in the United Kingdom to prevent civil war, it's borders were shaped to encompass the maximum number of unionists without taking in too many nationalists.

    Both nationalists and unionists were given a slice of the pie to pursue their self determination, unionists in the Union, nationalists outside.

    Unfortunately some nationalists couldn't accept anything other than full unuonist capitulation...

    Yes, you have repeated it, but you haven't shown where and when this grant of Unionist self determination was given.

    Unionists got to stay in a part of the UK, were supposed to use PR and got rid of it and set about gerrymandering to gain more control, they used the police and other forces to further oppress.
    That was never the intention Bonar Law knew the dangers as did L. George and many others. George wanted to maintain 'the strategic interest' so partition was the solution. Partition with safeguards for the minority which unionists ignored.

    You are inventing a grant of self determination.


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    #1394
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Yes, you have repeated it, but you haven't shown where and when this grant of Unionist self determination was given.

    Unionists got to stay in a part of the UK, were supposed to use PR and got rid of it and set about gerrymandering to gain more control, they used the police and other forces to further oppress.
    That was never the intention Bonar Law knew the dangers as did L. George and many others. George wanted to maintain 'the strategic interest' so partition was the solution. Partition with safeguards for the minority which unionists ignored.

    You are inventing a grant of self determination.

    It's like talking to the wall at this stage. Unionism likes to revise history and paint a picture of their great love of democratic principles. When Ian Paisley could even accept the place was rotten to the core it's hardly surprising a people rebelled.


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    #1395
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    It's like talking to the wall at this stage. Unionism likes to revise history and paint a picture of their great love of democratic principles. When Ian Paisley could even accept the place was rotten to the core it's hardly surprising a people rebelled.

    I get the feeling that 'somebody' was brought up to believe this. It's the type of myth invented to excuse a history of oppressing.


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    #1396
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And it was NEVER intended or granted for unionist self determination.
    Yes it was. What part of "Northern Ireland was brought into existence to allow unionists to stay in the United Kingdom to prevent civil war, it's borders were shaped to encompass the maximum number of unionists without taking in too many nationalists.

    Both nationalists and unionists were given a slice of the pie to pursue their self determination, unionists in the Union, nationalists outside.

    Unfortunately some nationalists couldn't accept anything other than full unuonist capitulation...    " do you not understand?


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That unionists took it and self determined it as a protestant state for protestant people is what caused all the problems.
    But as said before, the protestant state for a protestant people happened after the 26 counties became a catholic state for a catholic people.
    The IRA had shot a number of protestant civilians in Cork and elsewhere as a warning to keep their heads down, and numerous people were burnt and intimidated out around the country.
    Do not forget DeValera said: "I say that if I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic. Let us be clear and let us know where we are."
    From Dail Debates, 17 June, 1931

    In 1934 Craigavon in N. I said : "Since we took up office we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland. Actually, on an Orange platform, I, myself, laid down the principle, to which I still adhere, that I was Prime Minister not of one section of the community but of all, and that as far as I possibly could I was going to see that fair play was meted out to all classes and creeds without any favour whatever on my part."

    George Leeke then retorted: "What about your Protestant Parliament?", to which Craigavon replied: "The hon. Member must remember that in the South they boasted of a Catholic State. They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State."


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    #1397
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    maryishere wrote: »
    Yes it was. What part of "Northern Ireland was brought into existence to allow unionists to stay in the United Kingdom to prevent civil war, it's borders were shaped to encompass the maximum number of unionists without taking in too many nationalists.

    Both nationalists and unionists were given a slice of the pie to pursue their self determination, unionists in the Union, nationalists outside.

    Unfortunately some nationalists couldn't accept anything other than full unuonist capitulation...    " do you not understand?




    But as said before, the protestant state for a protestant people happened after the 26 counties became a catholic state for a catholic people.
    The IRA had shot a number of protestant civilians in Cork and elsewhere as a warning to keep their heads down, and numerous people were burnt and intimidated out around the country.
    Do not forget DeValera said: "I say that if I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic. Let us be clear and let us know where we are."
    From Dail Debates, 17 June, 1931

    In 1934 Craigavon in N. I said : "Since we took up office we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland. Actually, on an Orange platform, I, myself, laid down the principle, to which I still adhere, that I was Prime Minister not of one section of the community but of all, and that as far as I possibly could I was going to see that fair play was meted out to all classes and creeds without any favour whatever on my part."

    George Leeke then retorted: "What about your Protestant Parliament?", to which Craigavon replied: "The hon. Member must remember that in the South they boasted of a Catholic State. They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State."

    Can you show where and when Unionists were granted self determination?

    Look for somebody in government saying it. Two of you are claiming it now, you have to be able to find it said somewhere.


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    #1398
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Where? Nationalists got it under the grey skies and watchful eye of the RCC in the 26 counties and unionists got it under the blue skies of the 6 counties. In 1934 at least Craigavon said "Since we took up office we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland.". The % of Cathlolics in N. Ireland increased, and the % of protestants and jews in the 26 counties reduced.


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    #1399
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    maryishere wrote: »
    Where? Nationalists got it under the grey skies and watchful eye of the RCC in the 26 counties and unionists got it under the blue skies of the 6 counties. In 1934 at least Craigavon said "Since we took up office we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland.". The % of Cathlolics in N. Ireland increased, and the % of protestants and jews in the 26 counties reduced.

    So your facts are an Ulster Unionist saying what a great place Ulster is and what benign democrats we are? :):) this is great stuff :)


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    #1400
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    So your facts are an Ulster Unionist saying what a great place Ulster is and what benign democrats we are?
    Not just that, but DeValera saying: "I say that if I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic. Let us be clear and let us know where we are."
    From Dail Debates, 17 June, 1931.
    You should read up on the history of the 30's sometime, fascinating stuff.


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    #1401
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    maryishere wrote: »
    Not just that, but DeValera saying: "I say that if I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic. Let us be clear and let us know where we are."
    From Dail Debates, 17 June, 1931.
    You should read up on the history of the 30's sometime, fascinating stuff.

    Still haven't found a fact showing a decree of self determination yet?
    Possibly because of all those pesky references to safeguards like PR and the protection of the nationalist minorities.

    Fact is Mary the unionists did what they did simply because they were sectarian suprematist bigots. And that led to the conflict/war.

    PS, it all happened before the 30's if that is the problem you are having.


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    #1402
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Still haven't found a fact showing a decree of self determination yet?
    Possibly because of all those pesky references to safeguards like PR and the protection of the nationalist minorities.

    Fact is Mary the unionists did what they did simply because they were sectarian suprematist bigots. And that led to the conflict/war.

    PS, it all happened before the 30's if that is the problem you are having.

    The Google search engine has let Mary down.


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    #1403
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    The Google search engine has let Mary down.

    Nothing must be allowed to detract from those living under a blue sky. They probably get up in the morning and determine it is gonna be blue. :)


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    #1404
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Still haven't found a fact showing a decree of self determination yet?

    Apart from DeValera effectively saying this was a Catholic state for a Catholic people?

    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    the unionists did what they did simply because they were sectarian suprematist bigots.
    And you think all was rosy and everyone was dancing at the crossroads in this state? Minorities decreased in size here but increased in size in the UK inc N. Ireland - the Ireland of the early and mid 20th century was veryvery different to the Ireland of today.


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    #1405
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    maryishere wrote: »
    Apart from DeValera effectively saying this was a Catholic state for a Catholic people?

    What has what DeValera did in the 30's got to do with the supposed 'granting of self determination' to Unionists in the early 20's?
    Is it some sort of nebulous Back To The Future 'Themuns' one? Coz I haven't a clue what relevance it has.
    We know what evolved in the ROI, we as a people have faced that, dealt with that and we are not in denial of it.
    If you want to discuss Ireland in the 30's start a thread on it.
    And you think all was rosy and everyone was dancing at the crossroads in this state? Minorities decreased in size here but increased in size in the UK inc N. Ireland - the Ireland of the early and mid 20th century was veryvery different to the Ireland of today.

    Are you seriously suggesting now that oppression and discrimination on the scale of that which happened in NI happened here? Really?
    And again, is there anybody on this thread disagreeing or in denial that we where for a period a state heavily influenced and sometimes run by the RC church. There is no debate about that.


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    #1406
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    maryishere wrote: »
    Yes it was. What part of "Northern Ireland was brought into existence to allow unionists to stay in the United Kingdom to prevent civil war, it's borders were shaped to encompass the maximum number of unionists without taking in too many nationalists.

    Both nationalists and unionists were given a slice of the pie to pursue their self determination, unionists in the Union, nationalists outside.

    Unfortunately some nationalists couldn't accept anything other than full unuonist capitulation...    " do you not understand?




    But as said before, the protestant state for a protestant people happened after the 26 counties became a catholic state for a catholic people.
    The IRA had shot a number of protestant civilians in Cork and elsewhere as a warning to keep their heads down, and numerous people were burnt and intimidated out around the country.
    Do not forget DeValera said: "I say that if I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic. Let us be clear and let us know where we are."
    From Dail Debates, 17 June, 1931

    In 1934 Craigavon in N. I said : "Since we took up office we have tried to be absolutely fair towards all the citizens of Northern Ireland. Actually, on an Orange platform, I, myself, laid down the principle, to which I still adhere, that I was Prime Minister not of one section of the community but of all, and that as far as I possibly could I was going to see that fair play was meted out to all classes and creeds without any favour whatever on my part."

    George Leeke then retorted: "What about your Protestant Parliament?", to which Craigavon replied: "The hon. Member must remember that in the South they boasted of a Catholic State. They still boast of Southern Ireland being a Catholic State. All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State."

    Can you show where and when Unionists were granted self determination?

    Look for somebody in government saying it. Two of you are claiming it now, you have to be able to find it said somewhere.
    We don't need it granted to us, it is our inalienable right to have freedom.


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    #1407
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    We don't need it granted to us, it is our inalienable right to have freedom.
    Well said, and keep it as long as you can. In the case of a united Ireland, Francie said he favoured banning all parades for 20 years. It is very clear he does not like July 12th parades, he makes no bones about that. Keep your freedom - freedom to parade in your own areas, freedom from having streets and areas renamed like happened here in the Republic ( British sounding names like Wellington will beome G. Adams avenue or Bobby Sands st ), freedom from Irish language, culture programmes, freedom from Irish being a a requirement for public service jobs ( like it was here for most of the 20th century, freedom from having Adams face on all Ireland stamps.


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    #1408
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    maryishere wrote: »
    Well said, and keep it as long as you can. In the case of a united Ireland, Francie said he favoured banning all parades for 20 years. It is very clear he does not like July 12th parades, he makes no bones about that. Keep your freedom - freedom to parade in your own areas, freedom from having streets and areas renamed like happened here in the Republic ( British sounding names like Wellington will beome G. Adams avenue or Bobby Sands st ), freedom from Irish language, culture programmes, freedom from Irish being a a requirement for public service jobs ( like it was here for most of the 20th century, freedom from having Adams face on all Ireland stamps.

    Id be embarrassed if the vast majorty of people (even those who argued my own rhetoric/narrative, called me easy pickings, a joke and delusional) ignored my posts. Are you a bullheaded 12 year old or just simple?


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    #1409
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    We don't need it granted to us, it is our inalienable right to have freedom.

    You had freedom, what you forgot was that nationalists had the same rights but you set up a sectarian suprematist statelet (by getting rid of PR, gerrymandering and other draconian measures) to oppress the minority. It eventually exploded in your faces with tragic consequences and a government and it's agents helped you.

    You have, however, been taught what freedom actually is.


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    #1410
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,154 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Id be embarrassed if the vast majorty of people (even those who argued my own rhetoric/narrative, called me easy pickings, a joke and delusional) ignored my posts. Are you a bullheaded 12 year old or just simple?

    :) Scaremongering stays in the realms of reality to be effective. Mary's version reads like a comedy sketch - a bad one. :)


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    #1411
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,153 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Id be embarrassed if the vast majorty of people (even those who argued my own rhetoric/narrative, called me easy pickings, a joke and delusional) ignored my posts. Are you a bullheaded 12 year old or just simple?

    If simple she probably won't be be able to self diagnose. Arlene is writing letters now to Theresa. Keeps her busy during the holidays.


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