Would you be in favour of a border poll?

With Sinn Féin pushing for a border poll, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael opening the door to a future referendum on Irish unity, would you be in favour of having a border poll?

A national debate and discussion, with people from all sides giving their input. I can't see why a border poll could be anything but beneficial and informative. Thoughts?

mansize

Have the poll- I'd vote No.

pragmatic1

Yes and I'd vote yes.

The_Valeyard

The heart says yes, but the brain says no.

yerwanthere123

I think I'd be in favour of reunification, but not if people have to die for it, which I fear would happen.

Thundercats Ho

No, we're not ready for reunification IMO. I'd imagine it'd be easily defeated, which is why I wouldn't want a border poll.

alchemist33

Deleted User wrote: »

With Sinn Féin pushing for a border poll, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael opening the door to a future referendum on Irish unity, would you be in favour of having a border poll?

A national debate and discussion, with people from all sides giving their input. I can't see why a border poll could be anything but beneficial and informative. Thoughts?

On the contrary, I think it would be extremely divisive and end up as a big slanging match with a load of insults being thrown about. Given it would almost certainly fail (at this time), it would do more harm than good.

Ulysses Gaze

I'd vote no.

The reason being if ultimately a referendum on a United Ireland was the result, and it passed, militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

Letree

Yes because it would definitively let us see where we stand on the issue. If its relatively close then we can discuss want the reality might be like. If its not close at all then we can put it to bed for a generation or two.

Jimoslimos

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I'd vote no.

The reason being if ultimately a referendum on a United Ireland was the result, and it passed, militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

Anything else you think is ok for appeasement? ISIS and the implementation of Sharia Law perhaps?

If it (United Ireland) ever came to pass there'd be a bit of grumbling, few skirmishes from uneducated thugs (nothing the security forces couldn't handle) and the place would settle back to normal - little changed from before.

Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I'd vote no.

The reason being if ultimately a referendum on a United Ireland was the result, and it passed, militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

How would such a campaign be carried out? Even at the height of the troubles, with the support of the RUC, British Army and courts; loyalists achieved little more than shooting random Catholics in areas close to their own areas.

The few big attacks they launched were either planned, supported, built or flat out carried out by agents of the British state. With no collusion to help them how far do you think any campaign, in the unlikely event one even managed to manifest itself, would actually go?

Cookie_Monster

Jimoslimos wrote: »

If it (United Ireland) ever came to pass there'd be a bit of grumbling, few skirmishes from uneducated thugs (nothing the security forces couldn't handle) and the place would settle back to normal - little changed from before.

militarily maybe, but economically the republic would suddenly be one the hook for billions to pour into the black hole that is the NI economy and changing everything over from UK to Ire systems, departments, currency etc would be a disaster.

The north would be stupid to leave the UK and the south would be stupid for taking it.

LordSutch

Yeah, why not have a border poll . . . .

Can't do any harm, and it will sort out the question once & for all, won't it?

Donnielighto

I'd like one, a nice big no to put the issue to bed.

Zaph

We can barely afford to keep ourselves going, what in god's name would we want with another 1.5 million people, including a lot of whom wouldn't want to be part of the country in the first place? The NI economy is propped up by massive investment from the British government that we simply couldn't afford, so I'd have to say that I wouldn't be in favour of a poll just in case it passed.

Reati

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

militarily maybe, but economically the republic would suddenly be one the hook for billions to pour into the black hole that is the NI economy and changing everything over from UK to Ire systems, departments, currency etc would be a disaster.

The north would be stupid to leave the UK and the south would be stupid for taking it.

This is exactly why, even though as a romantic notion of a united Ireland it would be great, we can't be united. We simply can't afford it. We can't afford to run the part of the island we own, imagine the sh*t taking on the North would add. It'd take so much money to stabilise everything we'd be be bankrupted before we'd finish.

Fleawuss

Not yet. Let's each Brexit develop and see can we "leverage" the threat of a poll.

TheQuietFella

Reati wrote: »

This is exactly why, even though as a romantic notion of a united Ireland it would be great, we can't be united. We simply can't afford it. We can't afford to run the part of the island we own, imagine the sh*t taking on the North would add. It'd take so much money to stabilise everything we'd be be bankrupted before we'd finish.

Who said we can't afford it? Those who probably don't want to lose their seats

or perks of office. Would we need as many politicians in the South if we had a

United Ireland? Surely we would have to lose a few of our own to

accommodate our Brothers from the North which might not be a bad thing!

Avatar MIA

We'd go from a state of 4.75m to nearly 7 million people - there would definitely be synergies there.

Yes there would be short term financial pain, but great opportunities.

bobbysands81

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I'd vote no.

The reason being if ultimately a referendum on a United Ireland was the result, and it passed, militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

Militant Unionism has always been organised and funded by British security forces. Take away their involvement and Unionism wouldn't be able to sustain attacks on the Republic.

Unionism has nothing to fear in a United Ireland and so much to gain.

riffmongous

Yes but not yet, wait and let Brexit develop a bit, see if the Scots leave and how our own economy goes. While we're waiting, it's time to start slowly appealing to the unionists, focusing on common ties rather than the divisive issues

bobbysands81

Donnielighto wrote: »

I'd like one, a nice big no to put the issue to bed.

Once it's opened it won't be closed until the inevitable happens.

Jimoslimos

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

militarily maybe, but economically the republic would suddenly be one the hook for billions to pour into the black hole that is the NI economy and changing everything over from UK to Ire systems, departments, currency etc would be a disaster.

The north would be stupid to leave the UK and the south would be stupid for taking it.

That's a weak cliched argument. What exactly is holding NI back from being a functioning economy? Subsidises that could evaporate soon enough?

If there ever was reunification then yes there would be an economic cost, but certainly not anyway near as bad as the doommongers are predicting - much of which is wild speculation. Compared to the cost Germany had during reunification or the bank bailout it would be trivial.

The ROI isn't perfect by any means but which half of the island has done better overall in the 100 odd years post 1916 and from a much worse economic starting point? If anyone is being romantic and ignoring pragmatic arguments it is unionists.

bobbysands81

riffmongous wrote: »

Yes but not yet, wait and let Brexit develop a bit, see if the Scots leave and how our own economy goes. While we're waiting, it's time to start slowly appealing to the unionists, focusing on common ties rather than the divisive issues

Eh... all this state does is appease Unionism at the expense of Nationalists in the 06. Successive Governments have done next to nothing for Nationalists yet bend over for Unionists due to Sinn Féin being in both jurisdictions.

In saying that my vision of the inevitable reunification of this island will entail appeasement of Unionists through the renegotiation of all flags, emblems, means of representation and redistribution of power to local areas etc...

_Kaiser_

No I wouldn't be in favour.

Cost is one factor, security issues (as others have pointed out) would be another big issue - FFS the Gardai can't and don't have the resources to even deal effectively with junkies on our Capital's main streets nevermind the prospect of militant Unionists - and most importantly, other than romanticism about a "United Ireland" why would EITHER side want it considering the state of public services and finances here as it is, the political gombeenism and parish pump nonsense, and that as it stands, (the Republic of) Ireland is already pretty divided when it comes to investment and return with Dublin pretty much subsiding everywhere else and being where most of the jobs are.

Not gonna happen anytime soon.. and that's a good thing!

major bill

If it means we get Will Grigg, I am all for it

Your Face

No, we can't afford it.

bobbysands81

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

No I wouldn't be in favour.

Cost is one factor, security issues (as others have pointed out) would be another big issue - FFS the Gardai can't and don't have the resources to even deal effectively with junkies on our Capital's main streets nevermind the prospect of militant Unionists - and most importantly, other than romanticism about a "United Ireland" why would EITHER side want it considering the state of public services and finances here as it is, the political gombeenism and parish pump nonsense, and that as it stands, (the Republic of) Ireland is already pretty divided when it comes to investment and return with Dublin pretty much subsiding everywhere else and being where most of the jobs are.

Not gonna happen anytime soon.. and that's a good thing!

€36bn within first 8 years - http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/united-irish-economy-could-deliver-boost-of-36bn-388959.html

Junkyard Tom

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

To what ends? Unionism is predicated upon being in the UK. The British have already agreed they're out when a majority votes for it. How would bombing and shooting in Ireland force the British to take them back?

riffmongous

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Eh... all this state does is appease Unionism at the expense of Nationalists in the 06. Successive Governments have done next to nothing for Nationalists yet bend over for Unionists due to Sinn Féin being in both jurisdictions.

In saying that my vision of the inevitable reunification of this island will entail appeasement of Unionists through the renegotiation of all flags, emblems, means of representation and redistribution of power to local areas etc...

But it should not be appeasement, but strengthening ties and making people amenable to the idea of a united Ireland in advance to reduce the need for appeasement later.

Nothing to stop us also strengthening our ties with the nationalist community, it doesn't have to be either or.

edit:sorry misread your post, reworded now

Cookie_Monster

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Who said we can't afford it? Those who probably don't want to lose their seats

or perks of office. Would we need as many politicians in the South if we had a

United Ireland? Surely we would have to lose a few of our own to

accommodate our Brothers from the North which might not be a bad thing!

loose seats?, they are constitutionally protected and we actually now have to few believe it or not. It would increase numbers as UK representation numbers are lower than Ireland

failinis

I would say yes have a poll but I would not know how to vote. Romantically I would like to see reunification. Economically the South likely would not want us and also if it was a sucess - the loyalists would likely cause trouble and maybe have enclaves and cause even more divison. Mixed feelings

The Backwards Man

If the Brits go ahead with the Brexit yes, if not, no

TheQuietFella

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

lose seats?, they are constitutionally protected and we actually now have to few believe it or not. It would increase numbers as UK representation numbers are lower than Ireland

A United Ireland would warrant a change in the constitution to accommodate this.

We would need a new constitution or wholesale changes to what we have there anyway.

Cookie_Monster

TheQuietFella wrote: »

A United Ireland would warrant a change in the constitution to accommodate this.

We would need a new constitution or wholesale changes to what we have there anyway.

which would need to be approved before a vote on the North so people know what they are getting and I don't see much of that getting through either.

ninebeanrows

How does this work? Surely there is absolutely no chance the NI electorate would be in favour? It would be at least 60% NO...

In the south probably 70% for unification.

BoatMad

on an intellectual level , I agree with those that say the this state were it presented with the opportunity for reunification would easily financially accommodate northern Ireland economy , there would be massive change in NI of course to a functioning high tech open economy , but Ireland has a lot of experience in that

as for Unionist violence , it would be pointless, Unionist violence only works while they remain part of the UK , if they were actively cast off from the UK, they would be no point in violence, so widespread unionist violence would not occur. ( yes they would be certain militant groups )

This is the sad part of Irish history had the British enacted all Ireland Home rule and faced down treats of Unionist violence , It would not have amounted to anything . Unionist violence was always predicated on forcing that as a treat to maintain the union , its of no use the union is gone

of course , its all fairy tales anyway

BoatMad

Weathercheck wrote: »

How does this work? Surely there is absolutely no chance the NI electorate would be in favour? It would be at least 60% NO...

In the south probably 70% for unification.

we could hire a stack of " leave " strategists , they seems to be able to conjure nonsense out of reality

Weathercheck

Weathercheck wrote: »

How does this work? Surely there is absolutely no chance the NI electorate would be in favour? It would be at least 60% NO...

In the south probably 70% for unification.

Just like Scottish Independence was written off before the debates - I wouldn't be so sure of the outcome.

J Mysterio

I find the 'no argument' which is entirely based on money, to be fairly sad.

I fail to see how we could not absorb the hit anyhow. Irelands GDP was $238 billion last year. The subsidy to NI from the UK is £20 billion.

seamus

J Mysterio wrote: »

I find the 'no argument' which is entirely based on money, to be fairly sad.

Tbh it's the stronger, rational argument.

Favouring unification out of some teary-eyed sentimentality for a united nation that never existed in the first place, is what I find fairly sad.

That people would volunatarily risk the economic and social prosperity of their country because of some rose-tinted sentimental nationalist idea, is fairly scary. The UK just did it, and look at them.

I have far less confidence in the power of referenda/polls than I did when I was younger. One could argue that it's the purest form of democracy, but then you see how easy it is to manipulate people, and how much trust people put in 3rd party information sources.
Very few people go and find out for themselves, instead they trust in someone else to make their mind up for them.

That's not really democracy, that's media-ocracy. Government by the most convincing liars. When people vote in a referendum, they should understand what their vote means and be happy to stand behind it. Far too many people who vote in referendums and then are filled with regret afterwards; win or lose; because, "I didn't know" or "I was voting in protest at X".

So in short, I wouldn't be directly opposed to a border poll, but I don't think it's the best way to approach a question that has the power to be violently divisive.
It will be the right time for unification when the majority governments on both sides of the border are unanimously in favour of it.
That's a far stronger indication of the level of support for unification within the populace.

Wibbs

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I'd vote no.

The reason being if ultimately a referendum on a United Ireland was the result, and it passed, militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

Exactly. Sod that lark. Leave that sectarian nonsense "up there" and in the past. I lived through it when that retarded evil shíte on all sides was "live" and today's island of Ireland is by far the better for it being in the past.

Zxclnic

To answer the question in the thread title, NO.


''tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people''.
Guess which adjective the above defines?

That's right.....Divisive.

Cina

Discarding all the potential discourse and violence throughout a unified Ireland, the simple fact is we can't afford to absorb the North. The gap in GDP alongside their reliance on Government jobs makes it a non-starter, in my eyes.

flazio

I'd love to know how the Shinnerbots would vote if these were the options.
1. Reunite Ireland but fund the changeover through the Water charges.
2. Leave the North with the UK but abolish Water Charges in the Republic.

Cina

flazio wrote: »

I'd love to know how the Shinnerbots would vote if these were the options.
1. Reunite Ireland but fund the changeover through the Water charges.
2. Leave the North with the UK but abolish Water Charges in the Republic.

If you think the water charges would provide enough €€€ to fund it then you are sadly misguided.

murpho999

As usual the majority of posters relate the sense of nationhood to economies and not actual countries.

I would like to see a border poll and reunification someday but not quite yet. I would wait and see what happens to Scotland. If they get a second poll and vote leave then their is no more "United Kingdom" for the unionist community to be united with and the opportunity might be right for a peaceful transition to the Republic.

Has to be done peacefully though.

Cina

murpho999 wrote: »

As usual the majority of posters relate the sense of nationhood to economies and not actual countries.

I would like to see a border poll and reunification someday but not quite yet. I would wait and see what happens to Scotland. If they get a second poll and vote leave then their is no more "United Kingdom" for the unionist community to be united with and the opportunity might be right for a peaceful transition to the Republic.

Has to be done peacefully though.

Sounds a bit like "Feck the economy, take back control"

Wonder where we've heard that before?

Mint Sauce

Even putting aside the Unionism issue, a debate on it would certainly be interesting, with a referendum sometime after brexit is completed, thats if it happens. Should it go through, you are gonna see alot more debate, not just here, but a redebate on Scotish Inpendence, NI would be exploring options as well, even though the DUP were supporting an exit, although tht may have been more to do with, not wanting to be seen agreeing with SF.

But from an economic point of view, we could currenty never afford another 6 counties, the residents of the 6 counties are hardly gonna be in of favour of losing the NHS, losing a poll tax whilst may not all be in favour of, that gives them most of their government and local services for our property tax, that gives them nothing. There would also be a massive change in infrastructure, from roads, transport, and communication.

Then where would you put this central government, Dublin, Belfast, or even Cork.

Heart would say yes, head would currently say no. There would be currently more loses, than gains.

murpho999

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Even putting aside the Unionism issue, a debate on it would certainly be interesting, with a referendum sometime after brexit is completed, thats if it happens.

Bit from an economic point of view, we could currenty never afford another 6 counties, the residents of the 6 counties are hardly gonna be in of favour of losing the NHS, having a poll tax that gives them most of there government and local services for our property tax, that gives them nothing. There would also be a massive in infrastructure, from roads, transport, and communication.

Then where would you put this central government, Dublin, Belfast, or even Cork.

Heart would say yes, head would currently say no. There would be currently more loses, than gains.

Would that be the poll tax that was abolished in 1993?

Speedwell

Kind of a stupid question, but I'm curious how those voting against a border poll would likely vote if a border poll were actually to be held anyway.