Hostage situation in French church

RustyNut · 29-07-2016 09:55PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

They could just close all the mosques down and if Muslims whine about it, just give them directions to Muslim countries which have Sharia Law with a one way flight booked. It is France, not Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Why discriminate? Close mosques,churches,chapels,synagogues,temples,tabernacles, etc.

Zxclnic · 29-07-2016 09:58PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Why discriminate? Close mosques,churches,chapels,synagogues,temples,tabernacles, etc.

Not forgetting those temples to vanity....the keep fit places, gyms, I think they're called

BorneTobyWilde · 29-07-2016 10:02PM

At least they're easy to kill these terrorists.

SILVAMAN · 29-07-2016 11:20PM

Bob24 wrote: »

A number of mosques are being funded by rich businessmen front the middle-east with extremist ideology (Wahhabism, Salafism) and using them to spread those ideologies in Europe (once they have funded the mosque, they also pick the imams).

Looks like someone has found the balls to call a spade a spade-let's hope it is acted upon and that we in Ireland demand to know who funds mosques in our state, and that we will close them down if not satisfied.
I'm of the opinion that the only way to fight the pernicious spread of this most malignant of religions is to play extremely tough with these people.
http://news.sky.com/story/valls-open-to-ban-on-foreign-funding-of-mosques-10516102

KingBrian2 · 29-07-2016 11:24PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

You way too emotional kiddo.
How is Saudi a sh1thole?

A come off it unseenfootage why is it when a discussion about Muslim societies come up the same old crowd come out to say the nasty Arab states are not really bad they are nice to be in when that is complete rubbish.

Islamism is the state religion in Saudi Arabia and they export terror around the globe. Women have to cover up homophobia is rife and the laws are so restrictive to foreigner that if your atheist your eligible to be shot.

These guys have already made up their mind about European and American societies. They want none of it, the Dutch, Germans and British are infidels. Despite all this evidence we still have apologists for them.

RedemptionZ · 29-07-2016 11:29PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

You way too emotional kiddo.
How is Saudi a sh1thole?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Adultery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Methods_and_scope

Fairly sure you know most of this already.

ceadaoin. · 29-07-2016 11:42PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

You way too emotional kiddo.
How is Saudi a sh1thole?

Are you serious? Protesters are tortured then beheaded and crucified, other alleged criminals are beheaded in the streets without trial, people who speak out online are sentenced to be lashed 1000 times in public and then serve 10 years in prison, public hangings and stonings take place regularly. not to mention life for women - not allowed in the public domain unaccompanied, no right to an education, not allowed to drive, punished for being raped, forced marriages, being harrassed by religious police for wearing nail polish or showing too much of their eyes. Slavery is rife.

Meanwhile members of the royal family do whatever the fcuk they like with impunity.

Oh and they export extremism around the world. Sounds like a lovely place alright.

unseenfootage · 29-07-2016 11:43PM

RedemptionZ wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Adultery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Saudi_Arabia#Methods_and_scope

Fairly sure you know most of this already.

I do.

I just didn't know that conservative states are sh1tholes.

This is another definition of sh1thole:

**** hole
A horrible city in which to live, work or party.
Detroit is a **** hole.
#hell #toilet bowl #ass crack #boil #cleveland
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=****-hole

I guess its all relative so.

I guess Saudi is a sh1thole for gays, adulterers, murderers and so on.
I'm not sure if the majority of Saudi people regard it as a sh1thole.
They may think so about Detroit tho.

unseenfootage · 29-07-2016 11:49PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Are you serious?
Protesters are tortured then beheaded and crucified,
other alleged criminals are beheaded in the streets without trial,
people who speak out online are sentenced to be lashed 1000 times in public and then serve 10 years in prison,
public hangings and stonings take place regularly.

not to mention life for women - not allowed in the public domain unaccompanied,
no right to an education,
not allowed to drive,
punished for being raped,
forced marriages,
being harrassed by religious police for wearing nail polish or showing too much of their eyes.
Slavery is rife.

Meanwhile members of the royal family do whatever the fcuk they like with impunity.

Oh and they export extremism around the world. Sounds like a lovely place alright.

You probably can't prove 80% of that.

ceadaoin. · 29-07-2016 11:57PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

You probably can't prove 80% of that.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-james-jones-uncovered-a-rarely-seen-side-of-saudi-arabia/

You can watch this documentary on YouTube

The restrictions on women are well known. Not sure how you could deny those exist

RedemptionZ · 30-07-2016 12:15AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

I do.

I just didn't know that conservative states are sh1tholes.

This is another definition of sh1thole:

I guess its all relative so.

I guess Saudi is a sh1thole for gays, adulterers, murderers and so on.
I'm not sure if the majority of Saudi people regard it as a sh1thole.
They may think so about Detroit tho.

Where are you more likely to find an asylum seeker from - Saudi Arabia or Detroit?

unseenfootage · 30-07-2016 12:20AM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-james-jones-uncovered-a-rarely-seen-side-of-saudi-arabia/

You can watch this documentary on YouTube

The restrictions on women are well known. Not sure how you could deny those exist

Haven't denied it.

Prove these

1) Protesters are tortured then beheaded and crucified,
2) other alleged criminals are beheaded in the streets without trial,
3) people who speak out online are sentenced to be lashed 1000 times in public and then serve 10 years in prison, (How often does this happen?)
4) public hangings and stonings take place regularly.

not to mention life for women -
5) no right to an education,
6) punished for being raped,
7) forced marriages,
8) Slavery is rife.

unseenfootage · 30-07-2016 12:29AM

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Where are you more likely to find an asylum seeker from - Saudi Arabia or Detroit?

I was a uni and met quite a few Saudi students.
They were all happy and keen to return back to their country.
I didn't meet any gay or atheist saudis.
I guess some of them may want to come to Europe for Asylum.

I don't think any saudi in his right mind would want to live in Detroit tho. Sh!te water, f*cked up infrastructure....total sh!thole.

Gatling · 30-07-2016 12:31AM

When you stop seeing the light it's time to stop

RedemptionZ · 30-07-2016 12:39AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

I was a uni and met quite a few Saudi students.
They were all happy and keen to return back to their country.
I didn't meet any gay or atheist saudis.
I guess some of them may want to come to Europe for Asylum.

I don't think any saudi in his right mind would want to live in Detroit tho. Sh!te water, f*cked up infrastructure....total sh!thole.

If they can afford to come abroad to study in university do you really think they are representative of the population of Saudi Arabia?

Have a look there at the aul income inequality:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html

US isn't great but Saudi Arabia is worse. I would say there are a lot of Saudis who would want to live in Detroit over Saudi Arabia. Homosexual ones for example. I'm not sure if you realise how unequal Saudi Arabia is, you think everyone lives in a palace?

ceadaoin. · 30-07-2016 01:00AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Haven't denied it.

Prove these

1) Protesters are tortured then beheaded and crucified,

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-could-be-about-behead-crucify-ali-mohammed-al-nimr-1572851

2) other alleged criminals are beheaded in the streets without trial,

In the aforementioned documentary a woman is shown being beheaded in the street

3) people who speak out online are sentenced to be lashed 1000 times in public and then serve 10 years in prison, (How often does this happen?)

Does it matter how often? It's at least once which has been verified.

4) public hangings and stonings take place regularly.

Public executions regularly take place. In January 47 were executed in one day. Apologies, it seems they are hanged after death and are usually killed by beheading, firing squad or stoning

not to mention life for women -
5) no right to an education,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_education_in_Saudi_Arabia

Women need permission from a male guardian.

6) punished for being raped,

If the rape victim first entered the rapist's company in violation of purdah, she also stands to be punished by the law's current holdings.[2] In addition, there is no prohibition against marital rape or statutory rape.

In Saudi Arabia, rape cases usually target both the defendant and the victim,[3] and in some cases, the victim can be sentenced to even harsher punishment than the assailant.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia

7) forced marriages,

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/pages/attachments/2015/09/14/sau100598.fe_.pdf

8) Slavery is rife.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/inside-the-world-of-gulf-state-slavery.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Saudi_Arabia

SILVAMAN · 30-07-2016 01:29AM

More on possibility of banning of foreign funding of Mosques in France.

http://news.sky.com/story/valls-open-to-ban-on-foreign-funding-of-mosques-10516102

unseenfootage · 30-07-2016 01:31AM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/saudi-arabia-could-be-about-behead-crucify-ali-mohammed-al-nimr-1572851

could be?
I agree that beheading by sword do take place. Not sure about crucifixion tho.
Would you agree with the lethal injection in US? Electric chair?

In the aforementioned documentary a woman is shown being beheaded in the street

Beheaded yes.
Was there a trial?

Does it matter how often? It's at least once which has been verified.

Saudi doesn't tolerate any speech that may lead to sedition, not from secularists nor from the terrorist preachers that it imprisons.
Do you have a problem with the death penalty for terrorist preachers.

Public executions regularly take place. In January 47 were executed in one day. Apologies, it seems they are hanged after death and are usually killed by beheading, firing squad or stoning

What concerns you? The amount of executions or the manner or both.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_education_in_Saudi_Arabia

Women need permission from a male guardian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia

I don't consider wikipedia as a reliable source. Check one of the links. It has a caveat.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/pages/attachments/2015/09/14/sau100598.fe_.pdf

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/inside-the-world-of-gulf-state-slavery.html

tl;dr

I will concede though, that based on what I know from labor practices in the Gulfs States, there are major problems with labor conditions. This is totally unacceptable. I'll be interested in a proper study of how rife slavery is in Saudi. IN fairness, you can finde slavery anywhere. Watched some docs about slavery in Korea and Hawaii. Of course Europe has problems with slavery too. Greece, Spain as well as all the sex trafficking all over the continent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Saudi_Arabia

Didn't read.

My opinion is that you misrepresented some of the facts and exaggerated others.

I think it is unfair to single out Saudi for the death penalty, when there are other countries that also practice it. In Philippines, the ruler gave permission to anybody to assassinate drug dealers on the street.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3710940/Harrowing-pictures-brutal-truth-Philippines-war-drugs-s-seen-300-killed-just-one-month-president-ordered-police-bars-ground.html

300 in just one month!

I agree that there are human rights issues in Saudi Arabia, but I'd stop far short of calling it a sh!t hole.

jackofalltrades · 30-07-2016 02:55AM

Grayson wrote: »

Saudi is a monarchy, it's comparable to dictatorships of which there are many.
The difference is that Saudi uses a messed up interpretation of a religion to enforce it's power.
It's the same as any totalitarian state which uses an ideology. Wahhabism is to islam as Stalinism is to socialism.

I think this is a key issue not addressed by western countries and their media.
It always reported in the media as "a Muslim", which in fairness is quite a vague term.
It's never reported as "a salafist Muslin" or "a shia muslim".
We take a very hands off approach to this, possibly in an effort to not cause offence, possibly due to ignorance or a disinterest in knowing more.
We really need to find out more, print it and discuss it.
We need to identify extremist and non-extremists when it comes to Islam.
It would be great if people knew what mosques/Imams are trying to help things and what ones are trying to make things worse.
For lack of a better phrase we really need to "get stuck in" to this.

jackofalltrades · 30-07-2016 02:59AM

Gatling wrote: »

When you stop seeing the light it's time to stop

I'm guessing that your link would have to work, for that cryptic sentence to make sense.

foggy_lad · 30-07-2016 03:01AM

There are as many different cults or sects or factions of Islam as there are camel trains in the desert!

Are we to pander to the slightly different ideologies of every different sect or cult or branch of Islam or do we just call them all Muslims and treat them equally?

Bob24 · 30-07-2016 06:44PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

There are as many different cults or sects or factions of Islam as there are camel trains in the desert!

Are we to pander to the slightly different ideologies of every different sect or cult or branch of Islam or do we just call them all Muslims and treat them equally?

I think if certain branches of Islam in the West want to distance themselves from others in the eye of the general public, it is probably up to them to get organised as a clearly recognisable group and communicate as that group only. As you said there are too many branches in Islam and without clear visibility the average person will never be able to distinguish between all of them (and therefore tend to amalgamate them).

This is pretty much what Catholics and Protestants have done: they have big "names" within Christianity which are known to everyone globally and with very clear boundaries and accountability. If someone says they are a Catholic everyone knows what it means. It is for example clear that person has nothing to do with some crazy Christian church in Africa with a leader claiming they have supernatural powers. And equally if a person calls themselves Catholic but start claiming they have supernatural powers , Catholic institutions will clearly distance themselves and say that person has nothing to do with Catholicism.

SILVAMAN · 01-08-2016 01:54AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

You way too emotional kiddo.
How is Saudi a sh1thole?

http://news.sky.com/story/india-rescues-10000-starving-workers-in-saudi-10518485

Moo Moo Land · 01-08-2016 10:57AM

Bob24 wrote: »

And equally if a person calls themselves Catholic but start claiming they have supernatural powers , Catholic institutions will clearly distance themselves and say that person has nothing to do with Catholicism.

You've heard of how some male catholics can change bread into the actual body and blood of 2000-year-old Jesus?

Bob24 · 01-08-2016 11:18AM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

And equally if a person calls themselves Catholic but start claiming they have supernatural powers , Catholic institutions will clearly distance themselves and say that person has nothing to do with Catholicism.

You've heard of how some male catholics can change bread into the actual body and blood of 2000-year-old Jesus?

And we both know this is not what I was talking about. Ritual representation in a Church (I don't think any priest is actually claiming they are indeed changing wine into blood and bread into flush) is very well defined and identifiable as part of Catholicism. Which reinforces my point: even though in your case you do not seem to be a believer it is very clear to you what your are mentioning is part of Catholicism, and you can therefore easily make your own opinion of Catholicism on its own rights (while this guy also is arguably part of Christiany, it should be clear to everyone he has nothing to do with Catholicism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Joshua). The same clarity currently doesn't exist with Islam and it's different branches.

Bubbaclaus · 01-08-2016 11:26AM

Bob24 wrote: »

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

And equally if a person calls themselves Catholic but start claiming they have supernatural powers , Catholic institutions will clearly distance themselves and say that person has nothing to do with Catholicism.

You've heard of how some male catholics can change bread into the actual body and blood of 2000-year-old Jesus?

And we both know this is not what I was talking about. Ritual representation in a Church (I don't think any priest is actually claiming they are indeed changing wine into blood and bread into flush) is very well defined and identifiable as part of Catholicism. Which reinforces my point: even though in your case you do not seem to be a believer it is very clear to you what your are mentioning is part of Catholicism, and you can therefore easily make your own opinion of Catholicism on its own rights (while this guy also is arguably part of Christiany, it should be clear to everyone he has nothing to do with Catholicism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Joshua). The same clarity currently doesn't exist with Islam and it's different branches.

One of the major believes of Catholicism is that the bread and wine are quite literally turned into the body and blood of jesus during mass. Other Christian faiths use it as symbolism but in the Catholic Church they believe it is actually changing.

Moo Moo Land · 01-08-2016 11:36AM

Bob24 wrote: »

And we both know this is not what I was talking about. Ritual representation in a Church (I don't think any priest is actually claiming they are indeed changing wine into blood and bread into flush) is very well defined and identifiable as part of Catholicism. Which reinforces my point: even though in your case you do not seem to be a believer it is very clear to you what your are mentioning is part of Catholicism, and you can therefore easily make your own opinion of Catholicism on its own rights (while this guy also is arguably part of Christiany, it should be clear to everyone he has nothing to do with Catholicism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Joshua). The same clarity currently doesn't exist with Islam and it's different branches.

I couldn't resist but it now seems you are not aware of transubstantiation.
It's not a ritual chief.

Double burn

Bob24 · 01-08-2016 11:41AM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

One of the major believes of Catholicism is that the bread and wine are quite literally turned into the body and blood of jesus during mass. Other Christian faiths use it as symbolism but in the Catholic Church they believe it is actually changing.

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

I couldn't resist but it now seems you are not aware of transubstantiation.
It's not a ritual chief.

Double burn

Fair play I didn't know that. It was not my main point through, which is even more reinforced by this. A few posts and research and it is now very clear to me it is part of Catholicism - no argument to be had and I assume every priest will give the same answer (as opposed to impossible arguments about what is "real" Islam since there is not authoritative answer and different Imams could give different answers).

Moo Moo Land · 01-08-2016 11:42AM

Bob24 wrote: »

Fair play I didn't know that. It was not my main point through, which is even more reinforced by this. A few posts and research and it is now very clear to me it is part of Catholicism - no argument to be had (as opposed to impossible arguments about what is "real" Islam since there is not authoritative answer).

It's a common misconception to be fair.
Are you still a catholic then? Do you believe in transubstantiation?

Bob24 · 01-08-2016 11:43AM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

It's a common misconception to be fair.
Are you still a catholic then? Do you believe in transubstantiation?

Why still?

Hostage situation in French church

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