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Lay of the land: Ministers hack away at upland wildlife habitats

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  • #2
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Heather Humphreys allowing destruction of wildlife and hedges?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lay-of-the-land-ministers-hack-away-at-upland-wildlife-habitats-34925719.html
    A nice balanced article:rolleyes:


    I stopped reading after the 'journalist' complained about the 'stench of silage overpowering the scent of summer roses' and 'hacking of hedges'.

    I fail to see how silage is overpowering the scent of her roses and cutting of hedges are essential for their primary purpose, the security of field boundaries. Due to unfavourable conditions during the open periods of hedgecutting, I wasn't able to trim my hedges and they are now encroaching into the fields they bound. If I cut them during the open periods, I would be fined for leaving the ground in poor condition and because the ditches are taking current, I cannot maintain my farm boundaries with the electric fence.

    So I have the contractor booked to cut every single inch of fence this autumn before my cattle break out onto public roadways and cause an accident.

    You really have to be aware of unintended consequences of any actions you champion:)


  • #3
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    You really have to be aware of unintended consequences of any actions you champion:)

    True… but the Irish countryside is increasingly looking American, with wide open fields with no hedges. Not good for the environment; not good for wildlife; not good for balance.


  • #4
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Heather Humphreys allowing destruction of wildlife and hedges?

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lay-of-the-land-ministers-hack-away-at-upland-wildlife-habitats-34925719.html

    I couldn't endorse an extension to the hedge cutting season but the rest of that article was a lot of tripe. Overpowered "by the smell of silage"? Give me a break.


  • #5
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    A nice balanced article:rolleyes:


    I stopped reading after the 'journalist' complained about the 'stench of silage overpowering the scent of summer roses' and 'hacking of hedges'.

    I fail to see how silage is overpowering the scent of her roses and cutting of hedges are essential for their primary purpose, the security of field boundaries. Due to unfavourable conditions during the open periods of hedgecutting, I wasn't able to trim my hedges and they are now encroaching into the fields they bound. If I cut them during the open periods, I would be fined for leaving the ground in poor condition and because the ditches are taking current, I cannot maintain my farm boundaries with the electric fence.

    So I have the contractor booked to cut every single inch of fence this autumn before my cattle break out onto public roadways and cause an accident.

    You really have to be aware of unintended consequences of any actions you champion:)

    She does have a point even if she doesnt have a clue about farming, the quality of the countryside from a wildlife perspective is nowhere near what it used be. Have always ran a good few beehives here alongside the oul lad and its getting harder the whole time to get spots to put them in with good forage and yield prospects, between lads cutting ditches very tightly, spraying out all the briars/furze etc and ryegrass monocultures. Its no wonder that there has been big declines in so much wildlife all in the name of producing ever greater volumes of commodity foods that the world doesnt want...
    But there surely should be some sort of common sense approach to allow cutting in a case like yours that wouldn't affect the birds much


  • #6
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    freedominacup wrote: »
    I couldn't endorse an extension to the hedge cutting season but the rest of that article was a lot of tripe. Overpowered "by the smell of silage"? Give me a break.
    I'm assuming she mixed up slurry and silage which doesn't bode well for the accuracy of the rest of the article.


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  • #7
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I'm assuming she mixed up slurry and silage which doesn't bode well for the accuracy of the rest of the article.

    Would be grand, thanks very much.


  • #8
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Yeah, her delicate little nosey posey doesn't lend credence to her argument; however, the razing of hedges and draining of bogs and marches, and the fertilising of mountain land, so that there are fewer and fewer hidey-holes for the creatures we share our land with – that's a serious matter.


  • #9
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    She does have a point even if she doesnt have a clue about farming, the quality of the countryside from a wildlife perspective is nowhere near what it used be. Have always ran a good few beehives here alongside the oul lad and its getting harder the whole time to get spots to put them in with good forage and yield prospects, between lads cutting ditches very tightly, spraying out all the briars/furze etc and ryegrass monocultures. Its no wonder that there has been big declines in so much wildlife all in the name of producing ever greater volumes of commodity foods that the world doesnt want...
    But there surely should be some sort of common sense approach to allow cutting in a case like yours that wouldn't affect the birds much
    I've tried discussing it with people but, tbh, nobody cares. This is the legislation and there will be no exceptions was what I was told.

    Now I have a lot of hedges, some good, some bad but what I have is multiple times more than most of my neighbours. They were there before me and hopefully will be there after me.

    However, the current interpretation of the rules leaves me at a significant disadvantage and large liability if my cattle break out. I can't spray, which I have only a small difficulty with even though it would sort out most of my problems in less than 2 weeks. Most of my neighbours had sorted out their internal hedging by knocking it and the remaining boundary hedging by spraying which doesn't appeal to me except in certain areas.

    The only long term option remaining to me is cutting. I would prefer to do this in spring when the majority of fruit is eaten but I simply am not willing to risk being caught out in spring trying to cut hedges while creating huge tracks in my fields which will cause me to get penalised during cross compliance inspections.

    There is no option for me but take the whole lot out in autumn and keep it that way.

    That is the law of unintended consequences taking full effect here.

    I often wonder what people who get excited about these issues do on their own patch to preserve wildlife?


  • #10
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Would laid hawthorn and mixed hedges keep in cattle?

    http://www.hedgelaying.ie


  • #11
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I've tried discussing it with people but, tbh, nobody cares. This is the legislation and there will be no exceptions was what I was told.

    Now I have a lot of hedges, some good, some bad but what I have is multiple times more than most of my neighbours. They were there before me and hopefully will be there after me.

    However, the current interpretation of the rules leaves me at a significant disadvantage and large liability if my cattle break out. I can't spray, which I have only a small difficulty with even though it would sort out most of my problems in less than 2 weeks. Most of my neighbours had sorted out their internal hedging by knocking it and the remaining boundary hedging by spraying which doesn't appeal to me except in certain areas.

    The only long term option remaining to me is cutting. I would prefer to do this in spring when the majority of fruit is eaten but I simply am not willing to risk being caught out in spring trying to cut hedges while creating huge tracks in my fields which will cause me to get penalised during cross compliance inspections.

    There is no option for me but take the whole lot out in autumn and keep it that way.

    That is the law of unintended consequences taking full effect here.

    I often wonder what people who get excited about these issues do on their own patch to preserve wildlife?

    I've been cutting all my hedges in september for the last few years,
    It's just another case of impractical rules being made by those that haven't a clue.


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  • #12
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Yeah, her delicate little nosey posey doesn't lend credence to her argument; however, the razing of hedges and draining of bogs and marches, and the fertilising of mountain land, so that there are fewer and fewer hidey-holes for the creatures we share our land with – that's a serious matter.
    In fairness, Chuchote, that razing of the landscapes is complete in the ever expanding urban areas of Ireland. Perhaps if there was work done in the almost total desolation of urban areas, that example could be shown to rural Ireland.

    It's easy to complain about what others are doing when your own areas could be absolutely devoid of diversity. What I see is 'Do as I say, not as I do' attitudes when people post about this on this forum.

    How many of your neighbours have lawns left uncut? How many have Whitethorn/Blackthorn hedging planted? How many have clumps of briars left to provide food for overwintering animals? How many have daisies left in their lawns and other native wildflowers left grow and propagate in their patch?

    There are all simple things that could be done themselves but aren't while farmers are being criticised for doing the exact same. Why is that, do you think?


  • #13
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    Chuchote wrote:
    True… but the Irish countryside is increasingly looking American, with wide open fields with no hedges. Not good for the environment; not good for wildlife; not good for balance.

    I grow a lot of hawthorn around my land and leave them for a few year's.
    Then I lay them,the hawthorn attract our native fauna,from bees,rabbits,even the bats like them in the evening feeding on flies etc...

    I hate modern day hedges,they are the ruination of the landscape.
    I was in Kildare this weekend and where I live in the burren is like a foreign country.

    Clare farmers are leading the way in keeping it country.....


  • #14
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    In fairness, Chuchote, that razing of the landscapes is complete in the ever expanding urban areas of Ireland. Perhaps if there was work done in the almost total desolation of urban areas, that example could be shown to rural Ireland.

    It's easy to complain about what others are doing when your own areas could be absolutely devoid of diversity. What I see is 'Do as I say, not as I do' attitudes when people post about this on this forum.

    How many of your neighbours have lawns left uncut? How many have Whitethorn/Blackthorn hedging planted? How many have clumps of briars left to provide food for overwintering animals? How many have daisies left in their lawns and other native wildflowers left grow and propagate in their patch?

    There are all simple things that could be done themselves but aren't while farmers are being criticised for doing the exact same. Why is that, do you think?

    It's true – locally, a lot of people have paved over their front gardens so they can drive their cars in. For myself, I have a nice wild garden with hawthorn, hazel, berries, etc, a pond with lots of frogs (kindly shared with neighbours :pac: ) as well as a bird feeder on the kitchen window that supports families of blackbirds, sparrows and finches – and I ride a bike, don't drive a car.


  • #15
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Its usuall enviro lobby crap, i live here so you should make the place look nice for me as i have lost touch with agri realities. Meanwhile its grand to import food from over there doing what they do there as i dont live there crap.


  • #16
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    Its usuall enviro lobby crap, i live here so you should make the place look nice for me as i have lost touch with agri realities. Meanwhile its grand to import food from over there doing what they do there as i dont live there crap.

    I would certainly be an enviro lobby supporter (or part of ~brigade, as I suspect you might regard me ;) ) but it's more than that; to have a good farming country we also need to have a good wildlife country, imho.


  • #17
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Chuchote wrote: »
    I would certainly be an enviro lobby supporter (or part of ~brigade, as I suspect you might regard me ;) ) but it's more than that; to have a good farming country we also need to have a good wildlife country, imho.

    Nah, double standards brigade would be more suitable name.
    Farming is going to change alot in the next 20 years for western europe, we cant compete cost wise so a change to high value less intensive will happen naturally.


  • #18
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    Nah, double standards brigade would be more suitable name.

    Not for me, no. I don't at all see why countryside should be minding nature and not city; if I had my way the city would be going the way of Paris – or rather, going ahead of Paris – rows of beehives in parks and on apartment blocks; wild gardens on roundabouts and in parts of parks; derelict sites planted with wildflowers and supplied with suitable nesting places, etc, etc.


  • #19
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    tripe like that doesn't help what is a valid argument about conservation. The big problem is farmers see the environmental lobby as a problem and the environmental lobby see farmers as the problem, any conservation policy that works needs farmers support for this there needs to be a better understanding of why conservation is important. Schemes like glas ect are the way forward imo


  • #20
    milligan2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 94 ✭✭milligan2


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    tripe like that doesn't help what is a valid argument about conservation. The big problem is farmers see the environmental lobby as a problem and the environmental lobby see farmers as the problem, any conservation policy that works needs farmers support for this there needs to be a better understanding of why conservation is important. Schemes like glas ect are the way forward imo
    Glas is a good scheme in its own right,but it doesn't sit well with the SFP on marginal ground.The topping rule and spraying restrictions have turned some of my place into a jungle.
    I had an inspection 2 years ago and some Dept official cut 1500 euro because of a birch wood on really bad ground which I since cut.
    So on one hand they giveth(glas) and with the other taketh away(eligibility SFP).
    It makes no sense cutting out a nice little wood on crap ground but the powers that be will penalise you if you don't.


  • #21
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    was it last week we had a thread where a poster was critical of farmers for not modernising, here we have a thread criticising farmers for being modern productive etc.

    over the last few days i've seen copious frogs, watch swallows darting around at knee height, have a jug of wild blueberries sitting on the table and had to swerve around a pheasant as i was drawing bales today.

    the burren is a classical example of where environmentalists get things wrong, they got the cattle off the ground to protect the 'delicate' flora, low and behold that unique flora soon got shaded over by plants the cattle were eating!


    when will an environmentalist come out and say that coastal defences are damaging to the environment? Farmers are just a popular target


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  • #22
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    ganmo wrote: »
    was it last week we had a thread where a poster was critical of farmers for not modernising, here we have a thread criticising farmers for being modern productive etc.

    Way to misinterpret a post! You rock!


  • #23
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Way to misinterpret a post! You rock!

    yes granite and lots of it

    anything else to add?


  • #24
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    milligan2 wrote: »
    Glas is a good scheme in its own right,but it doesn't sit well with the SFP on marginal ground.The topping rule and spraying restrictions have turned some of my place into a jungle.
    I had an inspection 2 years ago and some Dept official cut 1500 euro because of a birch wood on really bad ground which I since cut.
    So on one hand they giveth(glas) and with the other taketh away(eligibility SFP).
    It makes no sense cutting out a nice little wood on crap ground but the powers that be will penalise you if you don't.

    Subsidies were always for keeping land in good agricultural condition, can't be right to give it now for neglecting land


  • #25
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    rangler1 wrote: »
    Subsidies were always for keeping land in good agricultural condition, can't be right to give it now for neglecting land

    a bit of rough ground here and there is good environmentally speaking though


  • #26
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    a bit of rough ground here and there is good environmentally speaking though

    It is a bit of a contradiction, though, to fine one farm for having natural wildlife habitats yet pay another one to create an artificial one.


  • #27
    milligan2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 94 ✭✭milligan2


    rangler1 wrote: »
    Subsidies were always for keeping land in good agricultural condition, can't be right to give it now for neglecting land

    Glas would be more of a conservation scheme which doesn't prioritise keeping land in good agricultural condition,in fact it does the opposite especially on marginal land.


  • #28
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    It is a bit of a contradiction, though, to fine one farm for having natural wildlife habitats yet pay another one to create an artificial one.

    completely stupid I agree but common sense and government policy don't go well together


  • #29
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    milligan2 wrote: »
    Glas is a good scheme in its own right,but it doesn't sit well with the SFP on marginal ground.The topping rule and spraying restrictions have turned some of my place into a jungle.
    I had an inspection 2 years ago and some Dept official cut 1500 euro because of a birch wood on really bad ground which I since cut.
    So on one hand they giveth(glas) and with the other taketh away(eligibility SFP).
    It makes no sense cutting out a nice little wood on crap ground but the powers that be will penalise you if you don't.
    GLAS is a watered down REPS, non targeted and not results based. REPS failed to halt the decline in farmland species like corncrake, grey partridge, lapwing, twite, lapwing skylark. Most farmers do the absolute bare minimum to get GLAS payment, the way IFA/Government wanted.


  • #30
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Hedgecutting ban March 1st-August 31st widely ignored throughout the Country. Hardly any convictions at people who break the law. At present hedgecutting CAN take place during the summer if public safety is in danger! Proposed changes will further erode what pathetic protection there is at present.

    Species like yellowhammer breed into September in hedgerow. They are in steep decline. Another nail in their coffin.


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  • #31
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Hedgecutting ban March 1st-August 31st widely ignored throughout the Country. Hardly any convictions at people who brake the law. At present hedgecutting CAN take place during the summer if public safety is in dan! Proposed changes will further erode what pathetic protection there is at present.

    Species like yellowhammer breed into September in hedgerow. They are in steep decline. Another nail in their coffin.

    Roadside Hedges can be cut during the summer. I don't see any other hedge cutting during the closed season by farmers around here.


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