Lay of the land: Ministers hack away at upland wildlife habitats

Chuchote

Heather Humphreys allowing destruction of wildlife and hedges?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lay-of-the-land-ministers-hack-away-at-upland-wildlife-habitats-34925719.html

Buford T. Justice XIX

Chuchote wrote: »

Heather Humphreys allowing destruction of wildlife and hedges?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lay-of-the-land-ministers-hack-away-at-upland-wildlife-habitats-34925719.html

A nice balanced article:rolleyes:


I stopped reading after the 'journalist' complained about the 'stench of silage overpowering the scent of summer roses' and 'hacking of hedges'.

I fail to see how silage is overpowering the scent of her roses and cutting of hedges are essential for their primary purpose, the security of field boundaries. Due to unfavourable conditions during the open periods of hedgecutting, I wasn't able to trim my hedges and they are now encroaching into the fields they bound. If I cut them during the open periods, I would be fined for leaving the ground in poor condition and because the ditches are taking current, I cannot maintain my farm boundaries with the electric fence.

So I have the contractor booked to cut every single inch of fence this autumn before my cattle break out onto public roadways and cause an accident.

You really have to be aware of unintended consequences of any actions you champion:)

Chuchote

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

You really have to be aware of unintended consequences of any actions you champion:)

True… but the Irish countryside is increasingly looking American, with wide open fields with no hedges. Not good for the environment; not good for wildlife; not good for balance.

freedominacup

Chuchote wrote: »

Heather Humphreys allowing destruction of wildlife and hedges?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lay-of-the-land-ministers-hack-away-at-upland-wildlife-habitats-34925719.html

I couldn't endorse an extension to the hedge cutting season but the rest of that article was a lot of tripe. Overpowered "by the smell of silage"? Give me a break.

yosemitesam1

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A nice balanced article:rolleyes:


I stopped reading after the 'journalist' complained about the 'stench of silage overpowering the scent of summer roses' and 'hacking of hedges'.

I fail to see how silage is overpowering the scent of her roses and cutting of hedges are essential for their primary purpose, the security of field boundaries. Due to unfavourable conditions during the open periods of hedgecutting, I wasn't able to trim my hedges and they are now encroaching into the fields they bound. If I cut them during the open periods, I would be fined for leaving the ground in poor condition and because the ditches are taking current, I cannot maintain my farm boundaries with the electric fence.

So I have the contractor booked to cut every single inch of fence this autumn before my cattle break out onto public roadways and cause an accident.

You really have to be aware of unintended consequences of any actions you champion:)

She does have a point even if she doesnt have a clue about farming, the quality of the countryside from a wildlife perspective is nowhere near what it used be. Have always ran a good few beehives here alongside the oul lad and its getting harder the whole time to get spots to put them in with good forage and yield prospects, between lads cutting ditches very tightly, spraying out all the briars/furze etc and ryegrass monocultures. Its no wonder that there has been big declines in so much wildlife all in the name of producing ever greater volumes of commodity foods that the world doesnt want...
But there surely should be some sort of common sense approach to allow cutting in a case like yours that wouldn't affect the birds much

Buford T. Justice XIX

freedominacup wrote: »

I couldn't endorse an extension to the hedge cutting season but the rest of that article was a lot of tripe. Overpowered "by the smell of silage"? Give me a break.

I'm assuming she mixed up slurry and silage which doesn't bode well for the accuracy of the rest of the article.

Chuchote

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I'm assuming she mixed up slurry and silage which doesn't bode well for the accuracy of the rest of the article.

Would be grand, thanks very much.

Chuchote

Yeah, her delicate little nosey posey doesn't lend credence to her argument; however, the razing of hedges and draining of bogs and marches, and the fertilising of mountain land, so that there are fewer and fewer hidey-holes for the creatures we share our land with – that's a serious matter.

Buford T. Justice XIX

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

She does have a point even if she doesnt have a clue about farming, the quality of the countryside from a wildlife perspective is nowhere near what it used be. Have always ran a good few beehives here alongside the oul lad and its getting harder the whole time to get spots to put them in with good forage and yield prospects, between lads cutting ditches very tightly, spraying out all the briars/furze etc and ryegrass monocultures. Its no wonder that there has been big declines in so much wildlife all in the name of producing ever greater volumes of commodity foods that the world doesnt want...
But there surely should be some sort of common sense approach to allow cutting in a case like yours that wouldn't affect the birds much

I've tried discussing it with people but, tbh, nobody cares. This is the legislation and there will be no exceptions was what I was told.

Now I have a lot of hedges, some good, some bad but what I have is multiple times more than most of my neighbours. They were there before me and hopefully will be there after me.

However, the current interpretation of the rules leaves me at a significant disadvantage and large liability if my cattle break out. I can't spray, which I have only a small difficulty with even though it would sort out most of my problems in less than 2 weeks. Most of my neighbours had sorted out their internal hedging by knocking it and the remaining boundary hedging by spraying which doesn't appeal to me except in certain areas.

The only long term option remaining to me is cutting. I would prefer to do this in spring when the majority of fruit is eaten but I simply am not willing to risk being caught out in spring trying to cut hedges while creating huge tracks in my fields which will cause me to get penalised during cross compliance inspections.

There is no option for me but take the whole lot out in autumn and keep it that way.

That is the law of unintended consequences taking full effect here.

I often wonder what people who get excited about these issues do on their own patch to preserve wildlife?

Chuchote

Would laid hawthorn and mixed hedges keep in cattle?

http://www.hedgelaying.ie

rangler1

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I've tried discussing it with people but, tbh, nobody cares. This is the legislation and there will be no exceptions was what I was told.

Now I have a lot of hedges, some good, some bad but what I have is multiple times more than most of my neighbours. They were there before me and hopefully will be there after me.

However, the current interpretation of the rules leaves me at a significant disadvantage and large liability if my cattle break out. I can't spray, which I have only a small difficulty with even though it would sort out most of my problems in less than 2 weeks. Most of my neighbours had sorted out their internal hedging by knocking it and the remaining boundary hedging by spraying which doesn't appeal to me except in certain areas.

The only long term option remaining to me is cutting. I would prefer to do this in spring when the majority of fruit is eaten but I simply am not willing to risk being caught out in spring trying to cut hedges while creating huge tracks in my fields which will cause me to get penalised during cross compliance inspections.

There is no option for me but take the whole lot out in autumn and keep it that way.

That is the law of unintended consequences taking full effect here.

I often wonder what people who get excited about these issues do on their own patch to preserve wildlife?

I've been cutting all my hedges in september for the last few years,
It's just another case of impractical rules being made by those that haven't a clue.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Chuchote wrote: »

Yeah, her delicate little nosey posey doesn't lend credence to her argument; however, the razing of hedges and draining of bogs and marches, and the fertilising of mountain land, so that there are fewer and fewer hidey-holes for the creatures we share our land with – that's a serious matter.

In fairness, Chuchote, that razing of the landscapes is complete in the ever expanding urban areas of Ireland. Perhaps if there was work done in the almost total desolation of urban areas, that example could be shown to rural Ireland.

It's easy to complain about what others are doing when your own areas could be absolutely devoid of diversity. What I see is 'Do as I say, not as I do' attitudes when people post about this on this forum.

How many of your neighbours have lawns left uncut? How many have Whitethorn/Blackthorn hedging planted? How many have clumps of briars left to provide food for overwintering animals? How many have daisies left in their lawns and other native wildflowers left grow and propagate in their patch?

There are all simple things that could be done themselves but aren't while farmers are being criticised for doing the exact same. Why is that, do you think?

Stealthfins

Chuchote wrote:

True… but the Irish countryside is increasingly looking American, with wide open fields with no hedges. Not good for the environment; not good for wildlife; not good for balance.

I grow a lot of hawthorn around my land and leave them for a few year's.
Then I lay them,the hawthorn attract our native fauna,from bees,rabbits,even the bats like them in the evening feeding on flies etc...

I hate modern day hedges,they are the ruination of the landscape.
I was in Kildare this weekend and where I live in the burren is like a foreign country.

Clare farmers are leading the way in keeping it country.....

Chuchote

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

In fairness, Chuchote, that razing of the landscapes is complete in the ever expanding urban areas of Ireland. Perhaps if there was work done in the almost total desolation of urban areas, that example could be shown to rural Ireland.

It's easy to complain about what others are doing when your own areas could be absolutely devoid of diversity. What I see is 'Do as I say, not as I do' attitudes when people post about this on this forum.

How many of your neighbours have lawns left uncut? How many have Whitethorn/Blackthorn hedging planted? How many have clumps of briars left to provide food for overwintering animals? How many have daisies left in their lawns and other native wildflowers left grow and propagate in their patch?

There are all simple things that could be done themselves but aren't while farmers are being criticised for doing the exact same. Why is that, do you think?

It's true – locally, a lot of people have paved over their front gardens so they can drive their cars in. For myself, I have a nice wild garden with hawthorn, hazel, berries, etc, a pond with lots of frogs (kindly shared with neighbours :pac: ) as well as a bird feeder on the kitchen window that supports families of blackbirds, sparrows and finches – and I ride a bike, don't drive a car.

Waffletraktor

Its usuall enviro lobby crap, i live here so you should make the place look nice for me as i have lost touch with agri realities. Meanwhile its grand to import food from over there doing what they do there as i dont live there crap.

Chuchote

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Its usuall enviro lobby crap, i live here so you should make the place look nice for me as i have lost touch with agri realities. Meanwhile its grand to import food from over there doing what they do there as i dont live there crap.

I would certainly be an enviro lobby supporter (or part of ~brigade, as I suspect you might regard me ) but it's more than that; to have a good farming country we also need to have a good wildlife country, imho.

Waffletraktor

Chuchote wrote: »

I would certainly be an enviro lobby supporter (or part of ~brigade, as I suspect you might regard me ) but it's more than that; to have a good farming country we also need to have a good wildlife country, imho.

Nah, double standards brigade would be more suitable name.
Farming is going to change alot in the next 20 years for western europe, we cant compete cost wise so a change to high value less intensive will happen naturally.

Chuchote

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Nah, double standards brigade would be more suitable name.

Not for me, no. I don't at all see why countryside should be minding nature and not city; if I had my way the city would be going the way of Paris – or rather, going ahead of Paris – rows of beehives in parks and on apartment blocks; wild gardens on roundabouts and in parts of parks; derelict sites planted with wildflowers and supplied with suitable nesting places, etc, etc.

laoch na mona

tripe like that doesn't help what is a valid argument about conservation. The big problem is farmers see the environmental lobby as a problem and the environmental lobby see farmers as the problem, any conservation policy that works needs farmers support for this there needs to be a better understanding of why conservation is important. Schemes like glas ect are the way forward imo

milligan2

laoch na mona wrote: »

tripe like that doesn't help what is a valid argument about conservation. The big problem is farmers see the environmental lobby as a problem and the environmental lobby see farmers as the problem, any conservation policy that works needs farmers support for this there needs to be a better understanding of why conservation is important. Schemes like glas ect are the way forward imo

Glas is a good scheme in its own right,but it doesn't sit well with the SFP on marginal ground.The topping rule and spraying restrictions have turned some of my place into a jungle.
I had an inspection 2 years ago and some Dept official cut 1500 euro because of a birch wood on really bad ground which I since cut.
So on one hand they giveth(glas) and with the other taketh away(eligibility SFP).
It makes no sense cutting out a nice little wood on crap ground but the powers that be will penalise you if you don't.

ganmo

was it last week we had a thread where a poster was critical of farmers for not modernising, here we have a thread criticising farmers for being modern productive etc.

over the last few days i've seen copious frogs, watch swallows darting around at knee height, have a jug of wild blueberries sitting on the table and had to swerve around a pheasant as i was drawing bales today.

the burren is a classical example of where environmentalists get things wrong, they got the cattle off the ground to protect the 'delicate' flora, low and behold that unique flora soon got shaded over by plants the cattle were eating!


when will an environmentalist come out and say that coastal defences are damaging to the environment? Farmers are just a popular target

Chuchote

ganmo wrote: »

was it last week we had a thread where a poster was critical of farmers for not modernising, here we have a thread criticising farmers for being modern productive etc.

Way to misinterpret a post! You rock!

ganmo

Chuchote wrote: »

Way to misinterpret a post! You rock!

yes granite and lots of it

anything else to add?

rangler1

milligan2 wrote: »

Glas is a good scheme in its own right,but it doesn't sit well with the SFP on marginal ground.The topping rule and spraying restrictions have turned some of my place into a jungle.
I had an inspection 2 years ago and some Dept official cut 1500 euro because of a birch wood on really bad ground which I since cut.
So on one hand they giveth(glas) and with the other taketh away(eligibility SFP).
It makes no sense cutting out a nice little wood on crap ground but the powers that be will penalise you if you don't.

Subsidies were always for keeping land in good agricultural condition, can't be right to give it now for neglecting land

laoch na mona

rangler1 wrote: »

Subsidies were always for keeping land in good agricultural condition, can't be right to give it now for neglecting land

a bit of rough ground here and there is good environmentally speaking though

Buford T. Justice XIX

laoch na mona wrote: »

a bit of rough ground here and there is good environmentally speaking though

It is a bit of a contradiction, though, to fine one farm for having natural wildlife habitats yet pay another one to create an artificial one.

milligan2

rangler1 wrote: »

Subsidies were always for keeping land in good agricultural condition, can't be right to give it now for neglecting land

Glas would be more of a conservation scheme which doesn't prioritise keeping land in good agricultural condition,in fact it does the opposite especially on marginal land.

laoch na mona

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It is a bit of a contradiction, though, to fine one farm for having natural wildlife habitats yet pay another one to create an artificial one.

completely stupid I agree but common sense and government policy don't go well together

Capercaillie

milligan2 wrote: »

Glas is a good scheme in its own right,but it doesn't sit well with the SFP on marginal ground.The topping rule and spraying restrictions have turned some of my place into a jungle.
I had an inspection 2 years ago and some Dept official cut 1500 euro because of a birch wood on really bad ground which I since cut.
So on one hand they giveth(glas) and with the other taketh away(eligibility SFP).
It makes no sense cutting out a nice little wood on crap ground but the powers that be will penalise you if you don't.

GLAS is a watered down REPS, non targeted and not results based. REPS failed to halt the decline in farmland species like corncrake, grey partridge, lapwing, twite, lapwing skylark. Most farmers do the absolute bare minimum to get GLAS payment, the way IFA/Government wanted.

Capercaillie

Hedgecutting ban March 1st-August 31st widely ignored throughout the Country. Hardly any convictions at people who break the law. At present hedgecutting CAN take place during the summer if public safety is in danger! Proposed changes will further erode what pathetic protection there is at present.

Species like yellowhammer breed into September in hedgerow. They are in steep decline. Another nail in their coffin.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Capercaillie wrote: »

Hedgecutting ban March 1st-August 31st widely ignored throughout the Country. Hardly any convictions at people who brake the law. At present hedgecutting CAN take place during the summer if public safety is in dan! Proposed changes will further erode what pathetic protection there is at present.

Species like yellowhammer breed into September in hedgerow. They are in steep decline. Another nail in their coffin.

Roadside Hedges can be cut during the summer. I don't see any other hedge cutting during the closed season by farmers around here.

rangler1

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It is a bit of a contradiction, though, to fine one farm for having natural wildlife habitats yet pay another one to create an artificial one.

Why apply for SFP on land that you're not going to farm properly, Would you put your car in for NCT knowing you're not maintaining it properly.
It'd be lovely if i could get my SFP and never bother to farm it, ireland'd be a rough looking spot then.

Buford T. Justice XIX

rangler1 wrote: »

Why apply for SFP on land that you're not going to farm properly, Would you put your car in for NCT knowing you're not maintaining it properly.
It'd be lovely if i could get my SFP and never bother to farm it, ireland'd be a rough looking spot then.

Rushes are called Kerry barley down here for a reason, rangler. It's almost impossible to farm in huge swathes of the county without Rushes popping up. And rainfall doesn't always allow farmers to cut rushes on heavy ground to keep them under control. Kerry rainfall is twice what you receive during the year in the Midlands.

Chuchote

Isn't it a question of what you consider to be 'farming properly' too? Fallow land and land kept wild for the protection of wildlife could be part of a good farming plan.

rangler1

Chuchote wrote: »

Isn't it a question of what you consider to be 'farming properly' too? Fallow land and land kept wild for the protection of wildlife could be part of a good farming plan.

It doesn't matter what i think good farming is, the rules are plain in the Ts and Cs of the basic payment scheme, you either comply or do without.

Capercaillie

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Rushes are called Kerry barley down here for a reason, rangler. It's almost impossible to farm in huge swathes of the county without Rushes popping up. And rainfall doesn't always allow farmers to cut rushes on heavy ground to keep them under control. Kerry rainfall is twice what you receive during the year in the Midlands.

Widespread illegal hedgecutting in my area by locals and council. Widespread illegal burning of scrub/heather as well out of season. Government/council turn a blind eye. Nothing will be done until somebody is killed. In mean time species like curlew on the verge of extinction due to habitat loss ( + several other issues).

Chuchote

Capercaillie wrote: »

Nothing will be done until somebody is killed. In mean time species like curlew on the verge of extinction due to habitat loss ( + several other issues).

And then there will be howls and a temporary crackdown, followed by lassitude. Look at the ragwort if you want to see what'll happen.

Curlews? You think Irish farmers care about curlews?

Buford T. Justice XIX

Chuchote wrote: »

And then there will be howls and a temporary crackdown, followed by lassitude. Look at the ragwort if you want to see what'll happen.

Curlews? You think Irish farmers care about curlews?

Not really. Most are struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table. Any money received from Europe has halved in value since the SFP brought in between modulation and inflation and now convergence is taking a lot more from some and giving most of it back to those with lower value entitlements.

Given the choice, would you care a whole lot for the curlew if that option was taking money out of your pocket?

Edit. On ragworth, the vast majority of ragworth I see around me is found on government owned land, not farmers land.

Chuchote

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Not really. Most are struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table. Any money received from Europe has halved in value since the SFP brought in between modulation and inflation and now convergence is taking a lot more from some and giving most of it back to those with lower value entitlements.

Given the choice, would you care a whole lot for the curlew if that option was taking money out of your pocket?

Edit. On ragworth, the vast majority of ragworth I see around me is found on government owned land, not farmers land.

I suppose it depends. If I had enough money (and my own requirement for money is not a great one), the curlew would be welcome to my help. But 'enough money' is a variable thing; do I want a couple of expensive 4X4s, some holidays in nice places staying in good hotels… no, for my part, but for some people this would be a requirement.

Yes, the ragwort on the long acre and on government land is… astonishing.

_Brian

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Not really. Most are struggling to pay the bills and put food on the table. Any money received from Europe has halved in value since the SFP brought in between modulation and inflation and now convergence is taking a lot more from some and giving most of it back to those with lower value entitlements.

Given the choice, would you care a whole lot for the curlew if that option was taking money out of your pocket?

Edit. On ragworth, the vast majority of ragworth I see around me is found on government owned land, not farmers land.

My neighbor seems to have some sort of ragworth breeding program underway. Very successful too

laoch na mona

_Brian wrote: »

My neighbor seems to have some sort of ragworth breeding program underway. Very successful too

field across from my home place looks like he planted it

rangler1

laoch na mona wrote: »

field across from my home place looks like he planted it

It really annoys me to have my BPS reduced to give to that sort of farming, They obviously don't need or deserve subsidising

freedominacup

rangler1 wrote: »

It really annoys me to have my BPS reduced to give to that sort of farming, They obviously don't need or deserve subsidising

They're the type of really well off farmers the country is full of who would according to themselves be better off if they rented/leased out their land. It must be great to be in that position.

_Brian

The guy beside me is a bachelor just surviving on pension and bps cattle are just amusement. No ditching, hedges fencing, never tops, sprays or any care of land.

Genghis Cant

I think a One Size Fits All approach fails miserable. The countryside is made up of many different habitat types that require very specific actions, or in some cases no action at all!
A bugbear of mine is the eco terrorism carried out by Waterways Ireland along our canals. An absolute fixation in places with manicured banks and towpaths, and not a weed in sight for a pinkeen to hid behind. Some Tidy Towns fall into the same trap, though I see others with signs up on unkempt areas labelling them as wildlife corridors or areas of biodiversity!
Yellowhammers were mentioned above, and elsewhere I've read reports of their decline and endangered status. This year around here I've never seen or heard as much of them. Maybe they're on the way back!

Buford T. Justice XIX

_Brian wrote: »

My neighbor seems to have some sort of ragworth breeding program underway. Very successful too

A friend of mine had the same trouble so he went into the neighbours yard to have a word. Turns out the neighbour was having some health problems so he went in and pulled them himself. That winter the neighbour offered him the land to rent and he still has it rented from the man.

Capercaillie

Chuchote wrote: »

And then there will be howls and a temporary crackdown, followed by lassitude. Look at the ragwort if you want to see what'll happen.

Curlews? You think Irish farmers care about curlews?

I'm a part time farmer and I do care about curlew/cornrake/lapwing etc.

Capercaillie

Chuchote wrote: »

Isn't it a question of what you consider to be 'farming properly' too? Fallow land and land kept wild for the protection of wildlife could be part of a good farming plan.

More active management than leaving wild is needed though, especially if trying to protect endangered species.

Chuchote

Capercaillie wrote: »

More active management than leaving wild is needed though, especially if trying to protect endangered species.

Mmmaybe.

Look what happened to the 200 metres or so on either side of the Iron Curtain, which was free of humans for half a century:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/nature/european-green-belt/

the_syco

Chuchote wrote: »

I would certainly be an enviro lobby supporter (or part of ~brigade, as I suspect you might regard me ) but it's more than that; to have a good farming country we also need to have a good wildlife country, imho.

Would I be correct in saying that due to stupid laws, it'll be soon (or now?) easier to have absolutely no hedges at all?

ganmo

the_syco wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that due to stupid laws, it'll be soon (or now?) easier to have absolutely no hedges at all?

yes regs dictate that we can't cut them, spray weeds or spread slurry near them. so without hedges we could ignore all that regulation.

now when I say weeds I include briars which can kill sheep as they go into the hedge for shelter get tied up in them and can't get out

note - when talking about cutting hedges we mean trimming them back not uprooting them. as it stands we can't destroy a hedge without planting one the same length before attacking the existing one