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Eircode design

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    #92
    PDVerse
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    I've written a blog on the Autoaddress website, last one I will ever do regarding the Eircode design as irony has gotten the better of me. Writing a blog defending the Eircode design against those who claim it can't be used by anyone, a blog that I have to write at close to midnight. Why? because I'm too busy during the day with Eircode projects mainly in the Courier, Finance and Insurance sector. That's just ridiculous.


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    #93
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #94
    Hannibal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭Hannibal


    my question is why eircode didn't expand on the 1-24 system for Dublin. Examples being say Swords being D19 instead of K67. Dun Laoghaire being D26 and Blackrock being D28 instead of that A64 and A96 nonsense.
    These random numbers make no sense as nobody will ever know them, people associate D24 with Tallaght and D15 with Blanch who will ever remember where K67 is? The north uses BT for the whole six counties so that that should've being a case point.

    The same with Cork should be C and Galway G. The system was designed to suit An Post and nobody else.


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    #95
    PDVerse
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭PDVerse


    @Patww79 Currently the database is updated quarterly. If you are relying on looking up the Eircode based on the company name then you could be looking up their old address. Try to find the company's own website under an About Us page to get their current address (may even have an Eircode) that would be a good check. If they don't have a website you would have to contact them directly or another source (e.g. Golden Pages) to confirm the address.


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    #96
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #97
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Hannibal wrote: »
    my question is why eircode didn't expand on the 1-24 system for Dublin. Examples being say Swords being D19 instead of K67. Dun Laoghaire being D26 and Blackrock being D28 instead of that A64 and A96 nonsense.
    These random numbers make no sense as nobody will ever know them, people associate D24 with Tallaght and D15 with Blanch who will ever remember where K67 is? The north uses BT for the whole six counties so that that should've being a case point.

    The same with Cork should be C and Galway G. The system was designed to suit An Post and nobody else.


    The Dublin postcodes make no sense apart from the D for Dublin. D15 is northside and D16 is south D2 is south of D1 but D3 is north of D1

    Who associates tallagh with 24? Who associates 18 with Sandyford? No one did until someone said "oh hey sandyford is 18" And people just remember it if they need to. Same as they will be capable of remembering A96 is dalkey. It's no big deal


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    #98
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    The Dublin postcodes make no sense apart from the D for Dublin. D15 is northside and D16 is south D2 is south of D1 but D3 is north of D1

    Who associates tallagh with 24? Who associates 18 with Sandyford? No one did until someone said "oh hey sandyford is 18" And people just remember it if they need to. Same as they will be capable of remembering A96 is dalkey. It's no big deal
    You seem to be looking for structure where there is none, but not seeing the structure that is there. Here are some objective facts.

    1. Dublin post districts all have the letter 'D', which is the first letter of the city and county name.

    2. All Northside districts have odd numbered codes. All Southside districts have even numbered codes.

    3. Districts closest to the city centre have the lowest numbered codes.

    These all contribute to people understanding roughly where a postal district is, without having to learn off a random collection of prefixes (to say nothing of the random codes within each area). If Cork had a similar structure with letter 'C' then the same would apply in Cork. Ditto, Galway, Limerick etc.

    @Hannibal. The system was designed not to be useful without accessing the paid for databases. So, while other countries postcodes are useful to some extent without having to pay for access to a database, Eircode was designed not to be.


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    #99
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    You seem to be looking for structure where there is none, but not seeing the structure that is there. Here are some objective facts.

    1. Dublin post districts all have the letter 'D', which is the first letter of the city and county name.

    2. All Northside districts have odd numbered codes. All Southside districts have even numbered codes.

    3. Districts closest to the city centre have the lowest numbered codes.

    These all contribute to people understanding roughly where a postal district is, without having to learn off a random collection of prefixes (to say nothing of the random codes within each area). If Cork had a similar structure with letter 'C' then the same would apply in Cork. Ditto, Galway, Limerick etc.

    @Hannibal. The system was designed not to be useful without accessing the paid for databases. So, while other countries postcodes are useful to some extent without having to pay for access to a database, Eircode was designed not to be.



    How does any of that help me assoisate 18 with sandyford. It doesn't. How does that help me know 14 is north of 18 or east of 24? It doesn't help me at all

    Now I'm not knocking the Dublin postcodes, I'm just pointing out it makes no difference to anyone that they aren't sequential or in grid format.


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    #100
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    How does any of that help me assoisate 18 with sandyford. It doesn't. How does that help me know 14 is north of 18 or east of 24? It doesn't help me at all

    Now I'm not knocking the Dublin postcodes, I'm just pointing out it makes no difference to anyone that they aren't sequential or in grid format.
    You said "The Dublin postcodes make no sense apart from the D for Dublin.."

    I was pointing out the various ways they do make sense.


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    #101
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    How does any of that help me assoisate 18 with sandyford. It doesn't. How does that help me know 14 is north of 18 or east of 24? It doesn't help me at all

    Now I'm not knocking the Dublin postcodes, I'm just pointing out it makes no difference to anyone that they aren't sequential or in grid format.

    Have you looked at the Paris arrondissements? They are locally referred to as l' escargot (the snail). The first - 1 - is at the centre and they spiral out like the shell of a snail. That way, the lower the number, the closest to the centre. Dublin postal districts are a bit like that - the (flying) snail was reserved for CIE.


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    #102
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    You said "The Dublin postcodes make no sense apart from the D for Dublin.."

    I was pointing out the various ways they do make sense.

    and that's fine, but if you're given a Dublin postcode in isolation and aren't from Dublin, it means nothing to you, you can't work it out just by looking at it, you have to either be told where it is or look it up


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    #103
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Have you looked at the Paris arrondissements? They are locally referred to as l' escargot (the snail). The first - 1 - is at the centre and they spiral out like the shell of a snail. That way, the lower the number, the closest to the centre. Dublin postal districts are a bit like that - the (flying) snail was reserved for CIE.

    If you draw a line from D1 to D24 you don't get much of a pattern

    29zuc4.jpg


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    #104
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    If you draw a line from D1 to D24 you don't get much of a pattern

    29zuc4.jpg

    It only works up to D6. Do not forget, there were politicians that corrupted the system for personal gain.


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    #105
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    It only works up to D6. Do not forget, there were politicians that corrupted the system for personal gain.

    The point I'm making really is that it makes no difference what way they are structured. No one really complains.

    I really do see the logic in not assigning eircodes a county reference. We saw the uproar when the postal address was used and people cried murder when they were told they were "in the wrong county" can you imagine giving them an eircode with a T for Tipperary when they adamantly think they live in Kilkenny. At least with eircode you can change the database and the code doesn't have to change. Exactly how some retailers are showing the postal address secondary and the geographic address as primary. You can't do that with a code that has a reference to the county in it.

    The same applies to grouping houses within the code. There would be uproar of certain people weren't grouped with the areas they think they belong to.


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    #106
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    The point I'm making really is that it makes no difference what way they are structured. No one really complains.

    I really do see the logic in not assigning eircodes a county reference. We saw the uproar when the postal address was used and people cried murder when they were told they were "in the wrong county" can you imagine giving them an eircode with a T for Tipperary when they adamantly think they live in Kilkenny. At least with eircode you can change the database and the code doesn't have to change. Exactly how some retailers are showing the postal address secondary and the geographic address as primary. You can't do that with a code that has a reference to the county in it.

    The same applies to grouping houses within the code. There would be uproar of certain people weren't grouped with the areas they think they belong to.

    They would not have any of these problems if they used numerals - as per the STD codes used by Telecom Eireann back in the day. [ 1 for Dublin, 2 for Cork, 5 for Waterford, 6 for Limerick,9 for Galway etc. Four digits instead of 139 routing codes]


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    #107
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They would not have any of these problems if they used numerals - as per the STD codes used by Telecom Eireann back in the day. [ 1 for Dublin, 2 for Cork, 5 for Waterford, 6 for Limerick,9 for Galway etc. Four digits instead of 139 routing codes]

    Why do you think substituting random letter with random numbers would make things any better? What significance does 2 have to cork above T? What significance does 5 have to Waterford over P?


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    #108
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    ukoda wrote: »
    Why do you think substituting random letter with random numbers would make things any better? What significance does 2 have to cork above T? What significance does 5 have to Waterford over P?

    Telephone numbers.

    If I say me Eircode is: 5317 A5B3 and my phone number is (053) 175890 you could know I live in Wexford. If is said I live in Cork, then my Eircode would start 21xx - it is just geographic telephone numbers, dropping the leading zero.


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    #109
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Telephone numbers.

    If I say me Eircode is: 5317 A5B3 and my phone number is (053) 175890 you could know I live in Wexford. If is said I live in Cork, then my Eircode would start 21xx - it is just geographic telephone numbers, dropping the leading zero.

    But that doesn't answer the question. Right now if I say my eircode stars with T you know I'm in Cork, if I say A you know I'm in Dublin county. What makes random numbers better than random letters? There's no benefit to having the structure you propose.


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    #110
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #111
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    But that doesn't answer the question. Right now if I say my eircode stars with T you know I'm in Cork, if I say A you know I'm in Dublin county. What makes random numbers better than random letters? There's no benefit to having the structure you propose.
    Surely, you understand that nobody just "knows" this. They have to learn it. If all city codes began with the first letter of their name, they wouldn't have to learn it. They would know it already. D = Dublin. C=Cork, G=Galway, L=Limerick

    The fact that there are always exceptions to these simple rules makes no difference whatsoever. It's about making the majority of postcodes recognisable, not 100% of them.

    Also, I'm not saying we should change to a code like that. I'm merely arguing that structured information (however imperfect) is nearly always more useful than unstructured information when it comes to recognition and memorability by the public.


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    #112
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Exactly. I don't know the dialling code for Galway, so it's as handy look up the Eircode as it is look up that.

    Is there a map of the 139 Eircode routing codes?

    I might have some chance if I had a visual clue.


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    #113
    Captain Chaos
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Captain Chaos


    Well for Dublin the Eircodes still retain the Dublin post codes of old. My post code was Dublin 13, my Eircode starts D13 xxxx, they just didn't bother making a system like that for the rest of the counties.


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    #114
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #115
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    Well for Dublin the Eircodes still retain the Dublin post codes of old. My post code was Dublin 13, my Eircode starts D13 xxxx, they just didn't bother making a system like that for the rest of the counties.

    So that would be a NO then.


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    #116
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    Well for Dublin the Eircodes still retain the Dublin post codes of old. My post code was Dublin 13, my Eircode starts D13 xxxx, they just didn't bother making a system like that for the rest of the counties.
    .. and the question was why didn't they extend that for the rest of Dublin, instead of using codes that begin with A and K?

    Routing key map at http://www.gamma.ie/sites/default/files/RKDraft.pdf


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    #117
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Surely, you understand that nobody just "knows" this. They have to learn it. If all city codes began with the first letter of their name, they wouldn't have to learn it. They would know it already. D = Dublin. C=Cork, G=Galway, L=Limerick

    The fact that there are always exceptions to these simple rules makes no difference whatsoever. It's about making the majority of postcodes recognisable, not 100% of them.

    Also, I'm not saying we should change to a code like that. I'm merely arguing that structured information (however imperfect) is nearly always more useful than unstructured information when it comes to recognition and memorability by the public.

    Thats a different thing, I don't think they should use the county reference for the reasons I outlined above. But making the letters into numbers won't improve anything


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    #118
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    .. and the question was why didn't they extend that for the rest of Dublin, instead of using codes that begin with A and K?

    Because it was contentious enough in Dublin and they learned from it and didn't make the same mistake again in a national scale. Remember D6W? And why it exists. Imagine that times 10000 and that's why they didn't do it like that.


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    #119
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    I think a map was put together by someone (not official). I saw it tweeted about six months ago.

    It is essentially a curiosity though. It is of no practical use to anyone really.


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    #120
    ukoda
    Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Is there a map of the 139 Eircode routing codes?

    I might have some chance if I had a visual clue.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COEPcSHUsAYM5_z.png


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    #121
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    .. and the question was why didn't they extend that for the rest of Dublin, instead of using codes that begin with A and K?
    Because it was contentious enough in Dublin and they learned from it and didn't make the same mistake again in a national scale. Remember D6W? And why it exists. Imagine that times 10000 and that's why they didn't do it like that.
    Would have been better to say that in the first place, rather than the Dublin postcodes make no sense...

    ... and this was a decision that was made by the project team, partly to be able to deliver the project quickly (which is understandable) rather than at a political level, and certainly not with any public input.


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