Eircode design

plodder · 30-07-2016 7:38am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Intuitive? You think postcodes should be intuitive?

Let's see: I have an acquaintance with the postcode "8700". What does that tell you, intuitively? How about "SY16 1AD"? Or "80112"? "3343810"?

SY = Shrewsbury area (quite intuitive)

SY16 = "SY16 area covering the areas of Newtown, Powys.The area contains approximately 6,935 households with a population of about 16,021 (2011 census)"

SY16 1AD (see it here)

It's as intuitive as it can be. You could take a list of all the top level postcode areas in the UK, and hazard a guess at where many of them are, or you could learn them off easily (if you wanted).

But, more important, all of the above is free information. It can be presented/used any way you like. You are not restricted by the particular capabilities of an app (that could be withdrawn at any time). You only pay for information down at the household level in the UK.

OldMrBrennan83 · 30-07-2016 8:57am

This post has been deleted.

TheChizler · 30-07-2016 10:31am

And that point brings us back to people's problems with the business model (which IMO currently includes an adequate number of free lookups) and not a problem with the design.

plodder · 30-07-2016 1:17pm

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Hardly. It couldn't be Belfast (BT), Dundee (DD), or Oxford (OX) could it?
or Liverpool (L) or Manchester (M).

Do you think you could guess where the following Eircode routing keys are:

A41, T21, H91, F31, E21, P25?

ukoda · 30-07-2016 1:21pm

plodder wrote: »

Hardly. It couldn't be Belfast (BT), Dundee (DD), or Oxford (OX) could it?
or Liverpool (L) or Manchester (M).

Do you think you could guess where the following Eircode routing keys are:

A41, T21, H91, F31, E21, P25?

Why would anyone need to guess the first part of any postcode in either ireland or the UK.. Another example of a fictitious "problem"

plodder · 30-07-2016 1:47pm

TheChizler wrote: »

And that point brings us back to people's problems with the business model (which IMO currently includes an adequate number of free lookups) and not a problem with the design.

It is a problem with the design because:

a) the number of free lookups is only for use by people, not software and its not for commercial use.

b) the app which has been provided to cater for some use cases (which it does admirably) doesn't cater for all use cases.

The web site I linked to above wouldn't be possible with Eircode unless it was hosted by someone who already has an Eircode subscription.

TheChizler · 30-07-2016 2:09pm

plodder wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

And that point brings us back to people's problems with the business model (which IMO currently includes an adequate number of free lookups) and not a problem with the design.

It is a problem with the design because:

a) the number of free lookups is only for use by people, not software and its not for commercial use.

b) the app which has been provided to cater for some use cases (which it does admirably) doesn't cater for all use cases.

The web site I linked to above wouldn't be possible with Eircode unless it was hosted by someone who already has an Eircode subscription.

What have they got to do with the design of the code? Any provider of any code is either going to have to release the algorithm or database for looking up the location. How they do that is a business decision.

ukoda · 30-07-2016 2:09pm

plodder wrote: »

It is a problem with the design because:

a) the number of free lookups is only for use by people, not software and its not for commercial use.

b) the app which has been provided to cater for some use cases (which it does admirably) doesn't cater for all use cases.

The web site I linked to above wouldn't be possible with Eircode unless it was hosted by someone who already has an Eircode subscription.

It's not at all a design problem. You know perfectly well that eircode data can be released for free if they so choose. There was a decision made to monetise it. That decision could be reversed and the design would not have to change. They would simply publish the ECAD somewhere and presto it's now a 'free' postcode for all purposes. No design changes needed.

plodder · 30-07-2016 2:25pm

ukoda wrote: »

It's not at all a design problem. You know perfectly well that eircode data can be released for free if they so choose. There was a decision made to monetise it. That decision could be reversed and the design would not have to change. They would simply publish the ECAD somewhere and presto it's now a 'free' postcode for all purposes. No design changes needed.

Releasing the data (or some of it) for free would certainly mitigate many of the problems, but as you well know also, the decision to use a random code and no hierarchy was partly to prevent people from making use of the system without having the database. PDVerse admitted this. So, you can call it a design feature. I call it a design problem.

ukoda · 30-07-2016 2:29pm

plodder wrote: »

Releasing the data (or some of it) for free would certainly mitigate many of the problems, but as you well know also, the decision to use a random code and no hierarchy was partly to prevent people from making use of the system without having the database. PDVerse admitted this. So, you can call it a design feature. I call it a design problem.

Call it what you want, but it is wrong to claim or insinuate that eircode cannot be 'free' because of the way it's designed. That is simply not true. The way it's designed allows for it to either be free or monetised. It was decided to monetise it. And it can be decided to release it for free and there is nothing in the design to stop the ECAD being published on some government website.

plodder · 30-07-2016 2:32pm

ukoda wrote: »

Call it what you want, but it is wrong to claim or insinuate that eircode cannot be 'free' because of the way it's designed. That is simply not true. The way it's designed allows for it to either be free or monetised. It was decided to monetise it. And it can be decided to release it for free and there is nothing in the design to stop the ECAD being published on some government website.

I have never insinuated or claimed it. I've spent the last couple of months calling for some data to be released for free...

ukoda · 30-07-2016 2:35pm

plodder wrote: »

I have never insinuated or claimed it. I've spent the last couple of months calling for some data to be released for free...

Your post above clearly says it's a design problem that software can't look up eircode for free. It's not. It's a political decision that stops 'free' use of eircode. The ECAD will work perfectly well with software and doesn't give a crap if it's paid for or not.

plodder · 30-07-2016 3:36pm

ukoda wrote: »

Your post above clearly says it's a design problem that software can't look up eircode for free. It's not. It's a political decision that stops 'free' use of eircode.

Let me explain it this way. Eircode was designed in such a way that all practical usage of it revolves around a database and there is very little useful information to be derived from collections of Eircodes without having access to the database.

That is not the case with the UK postcode. So, it is not simply a political question as to whether the database should or should not be monetised.

It is tied directly to the design of the code.

Therefore, that is a design problem in my opinion.

The ECAD will work perfectly well with software and doesn't give a crap if it's paid for or not.

Of course, but the fact that there is an ECAD was a design decision. You don't need access to anything like the ECAD to make use of the UK postcode for sorting/grouping locations. That is a design issue.

oscarBravo · 30-07-2016 3:40pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Not sure why you're so angry that I don't think eircode is a well designed system. But whatever, its my opinion. Design by committee, too many cooks, take your pick.

I'm not angry; I just don't understand your argument. You haven't bothered to defend it, so it's clear that you don't either.

Your criticism of Eircode is, sadly, completely typical of the initial Irish reaction to almost anything: "it's crap". Not "it's pretty good, with some caveats", or "hmm, I wouldn't have done it that way, but I can see the arguments for why it would be". Just "it's crap", with no effort to analyse or critique in any meaningful way.

I'm still at a loss as to what "intuitive" even means, where a postcode is concerned. plodder would have us believe that the UK postcode is "intuitive", because an "SY" postcode obviously refers to the Shrewsbury area. Quite why it doesn't intuitively refer to Salisbury, Sandy, Selby, Shaftesbury, Spilsby, Stanley, Stavely, Sudbury or Swanley is unclear, but anyhoo. He then goes on to "intuit" population statistics from the same code, while studiously ignoring the rest of the codes I provided.

Given that plodder has now admitted that he wasn't, in fact, addressing my question about intuitiveness but instead continuing to grind an axe about implementation in a design thread, I'd still like to know what, exactly, "intuitive" or "accessible" even means in the context of a postcode?

ukoda · 30-07-2016 3:46pm

plodder wrote: »

Let me explain it this way. Eircode was designed in such a way that all practical usage of it revolves around a database and there is very little useful information to be derived from collections of Eircodes without having access to the database.

That is not the case with the UK postcode. So, it is not simply a political question as to whether the database should or should not be monetised.

It is tied directly to the design of the code.

Therefore, that is a design problem in my opinion.

Of course, but the fact that there is an ECAD was a design decision. You don't need access to anything like the ECAD to make use of the UK postcode for sorting/grouping locations. That is a design issue.

I'm not disputing any of the facts. I'm simply saying it's wrong to say the design of eircode prohibits it use for free. It does not.

It was designed to have a database yes. That was a good decision and I don't believe it had anything to do with monetising it. It was the right thing to do to use the Geodirectory as the database.

It doesn't matter if it has a database, that has no bearing at all on wether or not you can or can't charge for it. Take loc8code, a non database code yet you are required to licence it and pay a fee if you want to use it for more than 15 look ups a day (same as eircode) this code is also useless for delivery planning as it forces everything into a square ignoring roads and natural boundaries

plodder · 30-07-2016 3:52pm

Well you do come across as a bit angry. But, that's by the way.

dictionary.com wrote:

Intuitive: easy to understand or operate without explicit instruction

In this context, I'd say easy to recognise without being told in advance.

Some UK postcode areas:
Belfast (BT), Dundee (DD), or Oxford (OX)
or Liverpool (L) or Manchester (M).

Eircode routing keys:
A41 (Ballyboughal Dublin), P17 (Kinsale), H91 (Galway) , R42 (Birr), F42 (Roscommon), Y21 (Enniscorthy)

Do you not think the UK ones are more intuitive? Granted to be fair the D codes are, in the same vein as the UK ones (as in D stands for Dublin, rather than we are already familiar with them), but it's the rest of the system ...

ukoda · 30-07-2016 3:57pm

plodder wrote: »

Well you do come across as a bit angry. But, that's by the way.

In this context, I'd say easy to recognise without being told in advance.

Do you not think the UK ones are more intuitive? Granted to be fair the D codes are, in the same vein as the UK ones (as in D stands for Dublin, rather than we are already familiar with them), but it's the rest of the system ...

It does not meet the criteria of the definition of intuitive as it would have to be deciferable without instruction and there's no way you can tell what DD stands for unless someone tells you or you look it up. You can guess. But that's different.

plodder · 30-07-2016 4:10pm

ukoda wrote: »

It does not meet the criteria of the definition of intuitive as it would have to be deciferable without instruction and there's no way you can tell what DD stands for unless someone tells you or you look it up. You can guess. But that's different.

Okay. Let's be even more specific. If we define intuitive in this context as meaning that if you understand that UK postcode areas (a bit like Irish car reg plates) are formed from the initial or final letters of syllables or words in the names of the relevant place

could you then infer or in some cases guess that:

L stands for Liverpool
M for Manchester
OX for Oxford.

I think you could

If you didn't know that SY was actually Shrewsbury, that's fine. We are talking in general terms and having learned this, we can see the pattern and we are comparing with a system that is considerably less intuitive, because it is largely random.

Why is Kinsale P17 and the surrounding areas P72, T12, and P43? If there is a pattern there, I don't see it.

ukoda · 30-07-2016 4:12pm

plodder wrote: »

Okay. Let's be even more specific. If we define intuitive in this context as meaning that if you understand that UK postcode areas (a bit like Irish car reg plates) are formed from the initial or final letters of syllables or words in the names of the relevant place

could you then infer or in some cases guess that:

L stands for Liverpool
M for Manchester
OX for Oxford.

I think you could

If you didn't know that SY was actually Shrewsbury, that's fine. We are talking in general terms and having learned this, we can see the pattern and we are comparing with a system that is considerably less intuitive, because it is largely random.

Why is Kinsale P17 and the surrounding areas P72, T12, and P43? If there is a pattern there, I don't see it.

I already told you I can try guess. What benefit is that to me? I'll have to look it up to sure. What is the benefit? What scenario is this helpful in? Another fictional scenario that has no real life application. Clutching at straws.

And by the way, if I was unfamiliar with the UK postcode and asked to guess where L was, I'd guess London.

oscarBravo · 30-07-2016 4:16pm

plodder wrote: »

Well you do come across as a bit angry. But, that's by the way.

I'm immensely frustrated at the Irish habit of criticising things without bothering to actually think about them first, but that's not the same as being angry.

Do you not think the UK ones are more intuitive?

OK, scouts' honour: don't look these up.

Intuitively, what areas do these British postcodes refer to -

ME? SD? SM? TD? ZE?

Now, leaving that aside for a second, I can concede that the UK postcode system is mostly more intuitive than the Irish one. Yes, you can often guess roughly where a postcode might be. The idea that the Irish postcode system is - and I quote - "shockingly bad" for no other reason than that you can't match the first few characters to a location using guesswork is, with the greatest of respect, a very stupid criticism.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's intuitive about "8700", "80112" or "3343810". Or is every postcode system outside of the UK also "shockingly bad"?

clewbays · 30-07-2016 7:31pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

How? And, from their perspective, why?

Remember: An Post didn't want a postcode.

Well, that's the simple truth of it, we have adopted a routing key system that only has meaning for An Post who we are saying has absolutely no need of it and that Eircodes would weaken An Post's competitiveness if they encouraged people to use them.

They must be really pissed off that people use Dublin 1, Dublin 2 etc, when looking for ManyPlaces street would have made it much harder for couriers.

plodder · 30-07-2016 9:08pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, scouts' honour: don't look these up.

Intuitively, what areas do these British postcodes refer to -

ME? SD? SM? TD? ZE?

I'd heard of one them before ZE = Zetland. An old name for the Shetland islands. Of course, none of them are intuitive. And I never said that all of them are anyway.

Now, leaving that aside for a second, I can concede that the UK postcode system is mostly more intuitive than the Irish one. Yes, you can often guess roughly where a postcode might be. The idea that the Irish postcode system is - and I quote - "shockingly bad" for no other reason than that you can't match the first few characters to a location using guesswork is, with the greatest of respect, a very stupid criticism.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's intuitive about "8700", "80112" or "3343810". Or is every postcode system outside of the UK also "shockingly bad"?

Fair enough, but I'm somewhat familiar with the UK system. I've no idea where those other ones are from.

ukoda · 30-07-2016 9:22pm

plodder wrote: »

I'd heard of one them before ZE = Zetland. An old name for the Shetland islands. Of course, none of them are intuitive. And I never said that all of them are anyway.

Fair enough, but I'm somewhat familiar with the UK system. I've no idea where those other ones are from.

You've still failed to answer how knowing ZE is Zetland (now Lerwick) is any benefit to you?

If you're going there you will look up the actual postcode of where you need to go, it will take you to probably a street with 20 houses. In Ireland, you do the same thing, but it takes you to the exact building you want to go to

sondagefaux · 30-07-2016 11:06pm

plodder wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote: »

Intuitive? You think postcodes should be intuitive?

Let's see: I have an acquaintance with the postcode "8700". What does that tell you, intuitively? How about "SY16 1AD"? Or "80112"? "3343810"?

SY = Shrewsbury area (quite intuitive)

SY16 = "SY16 area covering the areas of Newtown, Powys.The area contains approximately 6,935 households with a population of about 16,021 (2011 census)"

SY16 1AD (see it here)

It's as intuitive as it can be. You could take a list of all the top level postcode areas in the UK, and hazard a guess at where many of them are, or you could learn them off easily (if you wanted).

But, more important, all of the above is free information. It can be presented/used any way you like. You are not restricted by the particular capabilities of an app (that could be withdrawn at any time). You only pay for information down at the household level in the UK.

As your example shows, the SY postcode covers addresses in Wales (Powys). Shrewsbury is in England. I'm not convinced that a postcode derived from the name of a town in England is 'intuitive' when it's used for addresses in Wales...

Hazard a guess where many of them are?

NW = certain parts of north-west London.

NE = certain parts of north-east London? No - Newcastle-upon-Tyne

WC = Winchester? No - West Central London

BT = Belfast, but also every address in Northern Ireland...

Can't really see why an address in Co. Armagh with a BT postcode is 'intuitive'...

Sam Russell · 30-07-2016 11:36pm

Mod: Can we leave the UK post code system now - it's been done to death.

beauf · 31-07-2016 12:43am

Its all irrelevant now anyway. It done and dusted. They just make it mandatory in a range of public services. Then its a success regardless.

plodder · 31-07-2016 8:00am

sondagefaux wrote: »

As your example shows, the SY postcode covers addresses in Wales (Powys). Shrewsbury is in England. I'm not convinced that a postcode derived from the name of a town in England is 'intuitive' when it's used for addresses in Wales...

Hazard a guess where many of them are?

NW = certain parts of north-west London.

NE = certain parts of north-east London? No - Newcastle-upon-Tyne

WC = Winchester? No - West Central London

BT = Belfast, but also every address in Northern Ireland...

Can't really see why an address in Co. Armagh with a BT postcode is 'intuitive'...

Once you understand their system (like ours) is based around 'post towns' rather than administrative areas, I think it makes sense. I don't recall you complaining about that aspect of Eircode.

And of course there are always anomalies - London's areas being the biggest. But, it doesn't change the overall point, especially since Dublin's preexisting codes didn't have the same problem.

It's a bit like looking at the car reg plate system and saying they aren't intuitive at all because one or two of them might be ambiguous. (WD could have been Wexford or Waterford for example).

Alan_P · 31-07-2016 9:59am

plodder wrote: »

Once you understand their system (like ours) is based around 'post towns' rather than administrative areas, I think it makes sense. I don't recall you complaining about that aspect of Eircode.

And of course there are always anomalies - London's areas being the biggest. But, it doesn't change the overall point, especially since Dublin's preexisting codes didn't have the same problem.

It's a bit like looking at the car reg plate system and saying they aren't intuitive at all because one or two of them might be ambiguous. (WD could have been Wexford or Waterford for example).

I don't really understand your points, they seem to be going around in circles and not really based on anything about Eircode.

Can I clarify, if the Eircode database was available to freely download off a government web site, would all your objections go away ?

If that's true, then all your complaints are about the commercial model.

beauf · 31-07-2016 10:37am

You don't understand the usefulness of having a number plate with abbreviations for county? Instead of codes?

Would they be more useful as random number that you need to use a database to read?

It's Human engineering 101.

sondagefaux · 31-07-2016 12:51pm

plodder wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

As your example shows, the SY postcode covers addresses in Wales (Powys). Shrewsbury is in England. I'm not convinced that a postcode derived from the name of a town in England is 'intuitive' when it's used for addresses in Wales...

Hazard a guess where many of them are?

NW = certain parts of north-west London.

NE = certain parts of north-east London? No - Newcastle-upon-Tyne

WC = Winchester? No - West Central London

BT = Belfast, but also every address in Northern Ireland...

Can't really see why an address in Co. Armagh with a BT postcode is 'intuitive'...

Once you understand their system (like ours) is based around 'post towns' rather than administrative areas, I think it makes sense. I don't recall you complaining about that aspect of Eircode.

And of course there are always anomalies - London's areas being the biggest. But, it doesn't change the overall point, especially since Dublin's preexisting codes didn't have the same problem.

It's a bit like looking at the car reg plate system and saying they aren't intuitive at all because one or two of them might be ambiguous. (WD could have been Wexford or Waterford for example).

It does change the overall point - relying on pre-existing knowledge to understand a system ("Once you understand their system (like ours) is based around 'post towns' rather than administrative areas, I think it makes sense.") is the very opposite of 'intuitive' knowledge.

Many, many UK postcodes are no more 'intuitive' than Eircodes. ZE for Shetland is a very good example. BT for Co. Fermanagh is another very good example. NE for Newcastle rather than North-East London (when NW already means North-West London) is another very good example.

oscarBravo · 31-07-2016 2:48pm

Deedsie wrote: »

It is also frustrating when people attribute a stereotype to one nationality when the same attribute is common in many other nationalities. I can't think of one Western country who would not also have people think and behave the way you are attributing to only the Irish.

My experience is that Irish people are worse than average in this respect. It's not for nothing that we consider ourselves expert begrudgers.

When my company first started using Eircodes, we contacted all our customers to ask them to let us know theirs. One replied "don't use it, will never use it".

In how many western countries will someone reflexively refuse to use their postcode without even bothering to articulate - presumably even to themselves - a cogent reason not to?

oscarBravo · 31-07-2016 2:49pm

beauf wrote: »

Would they be more useful as random number that you need to use a database to read?

Someone needs to explain to the Dutch how stupid their car registration system is.

beauf · 31-07-2016 3:43pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Someone needs to explain to the Dutch how stupid their car registration system is.

Their number plate give you an indication of when the car was registered. Also they use codes for certain uses.

http://ifarm.nl/plates/rules.html#cars

So I have no idea what your cryptic comment is meant to imply....

plodder · 31-07-2016 10:04pm

Alan_P wrote: »

I don't really understand your points,

That's fine. I'm happy to explain if there's something not clear

they seem to be going around in circles and not really based on anything about Eircode.

They are going around in circles because the same point is indeed being made over and over - for whatever reason.

Can I clarify, if the Eircode database was available to freely download off a government web site, would all your objections go away ?

If that's true, then all your complaints are about the commercial model.

Well, if the Eircode databases were free to download that would certainly mitigate the main problems. Or even if a free dataset was made available that would be equivalent to what you get for free from other postcodes, while keeping some datasets paid-for, that would work too. It is the case though that the commercial model is closely tied to the design, despite what some people are saying.

ukoda · 31-07-2016 10:09pm

Bottom line: if it was designed to prohibit the free use of it. Then the free use of it would not be possible. But guess what, the free use of eircode is entirely possible, making your arguement null and void.

plodder · 31-07-2016 10:11pm

sondagefaux wrote: »

It does change the overall point - relying on pre-existing knowledge to understand a system ("Once you understand their system (like ours) is based around 'post towns' rather than administrative areas, I think it makes sense.") is the very opposite of 'intuitive' knowledge.

Many, many UK postcodes are no more 'intuitive' than Eircodes. ZE for Shetland is a very good example. BT for Co. Fermanagh is another very good example. NE for Newcastle rather than North-East London (when NW already means North-West London) is another very good example.

This is a good example of how this discussion goes round and round. Most people who have criticised Eircode, just give up in the face of continuous posts like this.

You obviously have a specific interpretation of the word 'intuitive' but for all intents and purposes the UK system is more intuitive than Eircode. BT does not stand for Fermanagh, it stands for the largest town in the area (Northern Ireland) that it covers, and that town is Belfast. It's not rocket science.

plodder · 31-07-2016 10:16pm

ukoda wrote: »

Bottom line: if it was designed to prohibit the free use of it. Then the free use of it would not be possible. But guess what, the free use of eircode is entirely possible, making your arguement null and void.

That's not correct. If it was designed hierarchically, then it would not have been possible to prevent people from using it for free, for some purposes. That is very different from the point you are making, which is that the state might decide to make it available for free (which they haven't fwiw).

ukoda · 31-07-2016 10:16pm

plodder wrote: »

Most people who have criticised Eircode, just give up in the face of continuous posts like this.

If that was true then this thread and all the others like it would have died a long time ago. Instead people like yourself keep raising the same old arguement over and over again and then in some sort of twisted irony complain that things keep going around in circles!

plodder · 31-07-2016 10:18pm

ukoda wrote: »

If that was true then this thread and all the others like it would have died a long time ago. Instead people like yourself keep raising the same old arguement over and over again and then in some sort of twisted irony complain that things keep going around in circles!

It was Alan_p who first 'complained' that it was going round in circles.

ukoda · 31-07-2016 10:41pm

plodder wrote: »

That's not correct. If it was designed hierarchically, then it would not have been possible to prevent people from using it for free, for some purposes. That is very different from the point you are making, which is that the state might decide to make it available for free (which they haven't fwiw).

You claimed that it was a "design problem" that prevented eircode from being free. That's not true. Now I'm not sure what point you're trying to articulate here. You seem to be now saying that a code could have been designed to make it impossible to licence? Which is a different thing again. I really don't know anymore. I think it's arguing for the sake of it now.

There's absolutely nothing in the design of eircode that prevents it been made freely available.

They made it non hierarchical because of the reasons outlined around grouping houses and areas together and the issues that causes. Not to make sure to licence it. You can licence any code. Loc8 is hierarchical and subject to licence. Having a heirarchical code would not have eroded any revenue streams from licening. So you're into pure conspiracy theory nonsense now.

plodder · 31-07-2016 10:57pm

ukoda wrote: »

They made it non hierarchical because of the reasons outlined around grouping houses and areas together and the issues that causes.

That's a bit vague. What were those reasons exactly?

Not to make sure to licence it. You can licence any code. Loc8 is hierarchical and subject to licence. Having a heirarchical code would not have eroded any revenue streams from licening. So you're into pure conspiracy theory nonsense now.

But PDVerse acknowledged this already and he designed it. He said that a hierarchical code could be used "without reference to the database" implying exactly what I said.

And why do you keep bringing loc8 up? Nobody mentions loc8 on this forum as much as you. loc8 is not relevant to this discussion. Even if we had a licensed geocode like loc8, there would still be free uses of it.

ukoda · 31-07-2016 11:05pm

plodder wrote: »

That's a bit vague. What were those reasons exactly?

But PDVerse acknowledged this already and he designed it. He said that a hierarchical code could be used "without reference to the database" implying exactly what I said.

And why do you keep bringing loc8 up? Nobody mentions loc8 on this forum as much as you. loc8 is not relevant to this discussion. Even if we had a licensed geocode like loc8, there would still be free uses of it.

This is what he meant by it if you bothered to look it up. But you'd rather have another arguement with me by playing dumb like you've never heard any of the argunents against a heirarchical code before. Round and round we go.

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/07/28/what-if-alternative-eircode-history-in-a-parallel-universe

oscarBravo · 01-08-2016 12:11am

ukoda wrote: »

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/07/28/what-if-alternative-eircode-history-in-a-parallel-universe

That's a really good blog post. Sadly, the last line is probably the most relevant.

It's all too easy to pontificate about how an entirely putative alternative system would have been better - especially when the pontificator didn't actually have to put any effort into designing such a system, or - worse still - dealing with the fallout of its inevitable flaws.

clewbays · 01-08-2016 1:02am

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's a really good blog post. Sadly, the last line is probably the most relevant.

It's all too easy to pontificate about how an entirely putative alternative system would have been better - especially when the pontificator didn't actually have to put any effort into designing such a system, or - worse still - dealing with the fallout of its inevitable flaws.

Yes really good, it dissects why only 5% of the population are using it!

sondagefaux · 01-08-2016 7:42am

plodder wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

It does change the overall point - relying on pre-existing knowledge to understand a system ("Once you understand their system (like ours) is based around 'post towns' rather than administrative areas, I think it makes sense.") is the very opposite of 'intuitive' knowledge.

Many, many UK postcodes are no more 'intuitive' than Eircodes. ZE for Shetland is a very good example. BT for Co. Fermanagh is another very good example. NE for Newcastle rather than North-East London (when NW already means North-West London) is another very good example.

This is a good example of how this discussion goes round and round. Most people who have criticised Eircode, just give up in the face of continuous posts like this.

You obviously have a specific interpretation of the word 'intuitive' but for all intents and purposes the UK system is more intuitive than Eircode. BT does not stand for Fermanagh, it stands for the largest town in the area (Northern Ireland) that it covers, and that town is Belfast. It's not rocket science.

No it's not rocket science. It's simple geography. The largest town in the area of Co. Fermanagh is Enniskillen.

Complaints have been made that some Eircodes routing key cover too wide an area, e.g. that the H91 routing key covers large parts of Co. Galway and parts of Co. Clare.

Yet when I point out that the BT postcode area covers all of Northern Ireland (with a population approaching 1.9 million) it's claimed that using a code that stands for Belfast ("the largest town in the area") for all addresses in Co. Fermanagh is more 'intuitive' than Eircodes.

You're correct - your post is "a good example of how this discussion goes round and round".

sondagefaux · 01-08-2016 7:58am

The last point made on the blog post is bang on the money:

"[font=Cabin, sans-serif]When the obvious parallels between Togher/Wilton and neighbouring townlands whose postcodes defined their border was put to Joe Leogue he responded with "grouping distinct areas under one postcode is not the same as claiming/reclaiming one area as another". There's none so blind as those who will not see"[/font]

[font=Cabin, sans-serif]Does Joe Leogue not have any knowledge of the history behind the Dublin postal district of D6W (Dublin 6W before Eircodes)?[/font]

[font=Cabin, sans-serif]Originally this was intended to be Dublin 26 but many residents of the intended postal district objected because they thought that Dublin 26 would be more readily associated with Dublin 24 (centred on mainly working-class Tallaght) than Dublin 6 (centred on mainly middle-class Rathgar/Rathmines), and this may have lowered property prices in the area.[/font]

[font=Cabin, sans-serif]I also remember reading an article about 20 years ago about how developers of one new housing estate lobbied to have the estate assigned to the Dublin 20 postal district instead of Dublin 24...[/font]

[font=Cabin, sans-serif]Ireland had postcode snobbery even before it had postcodes! [/font]

It's utterly disingenuous of Joe Loegue or anyone using similar arguments to claim that "grouping distinct areas under one postcode is not the same as claiming/reclaiming one area as another".

Grouping an area (its distinciveness may be a matter of sometimes fierce debate) under one postcode was already controversial even when only Dublin was divided into widely known postal districts.

It's not at all hard to imagine how the scenarios outlined in the autoaddress blog post would have caused massive division across all of Ireland if a UK-style postcode had been adopted.

plodder · 01-08-2016 8:25am

ukoda wrote: »

This is what he meant by it if you bothered to look it up. But you'd rather have another arguement with me by playing dumb like you've never heard any of the argunents against a heirarchical code before. Round and round we go.

https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/07/28/what-if-alternative-eircode-history-in-a-parallel-universe

PDverse put all of these arguments at the beginning of this thread and I think I responded to them.

It made life easier for the design team. They were able to deliver the project quickly, by avoiding controversy, but also by avoiding useful functionality in the system. That is what it boils down to and everyone needs to understand that.

The Togher/Wilton controversy that is relied upon heavily in that blog only happened a couple of weeks ago. So, it's slightly misleading to suggest that it was part of this secret design process a few years back.

It seems the fear is that Togher/Wilton-gate would be replicated across the country, though I think this is simplistic and there is plenty of flexibility in postcode designs to avoid this problem. Other countries seem to manage it. Despite the impression you might get here (and in the Daily Mail) the UK postcode which is hierarchical and area based, is hugely successful and accepted by the public. Problems like Togher/Wilton when they occur, tend to be in urban areas. If we used small areas as the basic unit, then they are much smaller than areas like Togher or Wilton and the higher level area distinction could have been just avoided altogether by using a grid system for naming the SA’s. Yes, there could have been issues even still, but that would be a sign of public engagement rather then indifference.

Other issues like the cost of insurance being tied to postcode is misleading as well. Address/location has always been a factor in insurance costs. It's not just going to start happening were we to have an area based or hierarchical postcode.

The bottom line is we will never know. There was no public consultation (ie with the public), no attempt to find out what kind of postcode the public wanted. So, instead of designing a postcide that the whole country would leap upon and be mired in controversy, what we got is one that 95% of us are indifferent about and are ignoring, a PPS number for houses if you will.

I think he is being unfair also to Joe Leogue, who is perhaps the only journalist who has taken a long term interest in the affair. He is essentially being criticised for being open-minded and presenting material that is favourable to both sides of the debate. It's just that some people don't like the idea of someone shining a light on Eircode and how it came about.

ukoda wrote:

You claimed that it was a "design problem" that prevented eircode from being free. That's not true. Now I'm not sure what point you're trying to articulate here. You seem to be now saying that a code could have been designed to make it impossible to licence? Which is a different thing again. I really don't know anymore.

I'm happy to explain it to you, if you are genuinely interested, but I don't think you are. I didn't say impossible to license. I said impossible to charge money for particular uses. A hierarchical code can do exactly what the autoaddress app does in terms of sorting and grouping of deliveries, except you don't need an app. It is visible directly from looking at the codes. That is why it is not possible to charge money for this. Whereas with Eircode, they have a choice. They can either charge for it, or decide not to charge for it. I would have preferred a simpler postcode that didn't need an app to do simple things like this, and when circumstances change, they might start charging for it in future.

ukoda · 01-08-2016 9:13am

Perfect example of pontificating. "I would have done this" "they didn't bother to do that"

When are you going to realise that there is no 1 postcode that is perfect in every single way.

A design had to be chosen, they chose one, they explained why, you don't like it, I get that.

plodder · 01-08-2016 9:38am

ukoda wrote: »

Perfect example of pontificating. "I would have done this" "they didn't bother to do that"

When are you going to realise that there is no 1 postcode that is perfect in every single way.

A design had to be chosen, they chose one, they explained why, you don't like it, I get that.

I quite enjoy reading the ridiculous contortions you and sondagefaux get yourselves into. But, the main reason I am involved is to argue for making the best of what we've got (at each stage). At this stage, I think the best way forward is a free dataset giving each eircode and the SA code for each. Publishing the whole ECAD for free might be risky from a data protection point of view, as well as killing off all remaining commercial potential.

Sam Russell · 01-08-2016 9:41am

ukoda wrote: »

Perfect example of pontificating. "I would have done this" "they didn't bother to do that"

When are you going to realise that there is no 1 postcode that is perfect in every single way.

A design had to be chosen, they chose one, they explained why, you don't like it, I get that.

They never explained why.

Eircode design

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