Explosion in bar in Ansbach, Germany

munchkin_utd · 26-07-2016 09:36AM

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HensVassal · 26-07-2016 09:42AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I assume you're writing that post in the same country as I am, where the majority of the people have previously rejected the right to access divorce. I'm not even 30 and that happened the year I was born.

40% of Irish voters once voted to impede women from accessing information on abortions, and a similar amount voted to impede women from leaving the country to access abortion.

i don't know how many of those voters were women, but I have no doubt a substantial number of them were. God knows what they were thinking, but they certainly weren't behaving in favour of their own liberty, and I have little hesitation in saying the same thing about well-educated Muslim women.

Many people in conservative societies are their own jailors, that is a well-established phenomenon.

We shouldn't ban Islamic hijab, but we have every reason to object to it on civil liberties grounds, especially for the sake of those women who claim to be content with that ridiculous get-up which covers their entire face.

But many of them see it as something completely different than how you might see it. There's a completely different philosophy involved here. You just have to read Muslim or Arab or Persian poetry to see how incredibly different and mysterious it can be with regards to nature, music, love, etc.

People on here know next to nothing about Middle Eastern cultures which are inextricably intertwined with Islam. They don't see these people as human at all, just savage males and subjugated females and that is tragic.

homerjay2005 · 26-07-2016 09:50AM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the police have multiple phones, sim cards, a laptop and access (i think) to a half dozen face book profiles ran by this fella.
It'll take a while to analyse everything and to be fair the minister comes out with preliminary info fairly soon after its collated.

To illustrate the seriousness of the matter, the investigation is now handed from the Bavarian state authorities to the national authorities as its being treated as a terrorism related matter.
from the more familiar US system you'll get the concept there too, that depending on the seriousness you investigate a crime at a city, or state or federal level with only very serious stuff going to the FBI

as for why he wasn't deported, it was confirmed it was postponed for health issues (see article below) but 12 days ago the authorities had reactivated the deportation order and that would have meant he was gone within 30days.
Maybe the trigger to do the attack now, seeing as he could be gone any day ?

and still on the topic at hand, ISIS have issued a video proporting to be the Ansbach attacker, but its a lad with his face covered so its not possible to tell yet if its real or not, but thats a job for the police to figure out.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/is-bekennervideo-soll-attentaeter-von-ansbach-zeigen-14357797.html

so if ht was up for deportation, why wasnt he locked up?

there really needs to be a review of how these people are managed, the security measures or lack of it, is a disgrace. if anybody is suspected of terrorism links or anybody knowingly shields people who are linked to this, there should be emergency legislation brought in to ensure they dont stay around long enough to do damage

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 09:55AM

Grayson wrote: »

You seen any updates? Does God add to it on a regular basis? I don't follow his blog I'm afraid.

You can follow Him on Facebook.

munchkin_utd · 26-07-2016 09:59AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

so if ht was up for deportation, why wasnt he locked up?

there really needs to be a review of how these people are managed, the security measures or lack of it, is a disgrace. if anybody is suspected of terrorism links or anybody knowingly shields people who are linked to this, there should be emergency legislation brought in to ensure they dont stay around long enough to do damage

its a policy that refugees are treated as normal humans, not criminals.

I dont disagree that maybe someone destined to be imminently deported should be under some sort of secure detention, if only those who you might consider a flight risk, but the German authorities disagree (and with the green party in the background with massive influence and virtual veto in the senate, it's not likely to change)

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 10:05AM

Bambi wrote: »

When did goths ever wear baseball caps?

You are gulty of some serious amount of deflection and prevarication. You want muslim head wear to be banned for reasons you don't explain other than it's not "normal". I asked what you would have to say about goths and you or some other poster say that goths don't go around blowing up night-clubs. Does that mean now that you want hijabs banned because Muslim women go around blowing up night clubs?
And how would banning the clothes that a person wears have any effect on whether they commit a crime or not.

Pro Hoc Vice · 26-07-2016 10:05AM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

its a policy that refugees are treated as normal humans, not criminals.

I dont disagree that maybe someone destined to be imminently deported should be under some sort of secure detention, if only those who you might consider a flight risk, but the German authorities disagree (and with the green party in the background with massive influence and virtual veto in the senate, it's not likely to change)

Current law does allow arrest and detention for person who may not cooperate with removal.

If say Germany was to lock up all who apply till removal it would involve hundreds of thousands in prison. Of course any person who it is believed is planning attacks can be arrested and charged with conspiracy.

munchkin_utd · 26-07-2016 10:21AM

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Current law does allow arrest and detention for person who may not cooperate with removal.

If say Germany was to lock up all who apply till removal it would involve hundreds of thousands in prison. Of course any person who it is believed is planning attacks can be arrested and charged with conspiracy.

sorry, I wasnt aware that the authorities could detain someone, but indeed its a part of the law on residence in Germany and deportation outlined here (official english version) if theres " a well-founded suspicion exists that he or she intends to evade deportation.":
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_aufenthg/englisch_aufenthg.html#p0816

with the numbers involved you really would have to set up the equivalent of modern day concentration camps to deal with the deportations if you wanted to lock up people automatically.

obviously the guy in question wasnt evaluated as a flight risk

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 10:40AM

jmayo wrote: »

Eh Egypt is great example why it is better of for us in the West to have a dictator or military rule rather than let them decide for themselves.
Mubarak was ousted and what happens, but a repressive regressive government is elected that wants to turn any secular freedoms back and ultimately wants to turn the state into sharia run islamic state.

There are few things here I believe.
Migrants/refugees from North Africa had been arriving in Italy especially after fall of Gaddafi.
Italians were doing their best, but couldn't cope so they just allowed the migrants/refugees go on their way which usually meant they headed off towards the richer countries in the EU such as UK, Germany, Sweden, etc.
How do you assume those people ended up in Calais ?

Then there started the influx into Greece.
Mr Erdogan may have had a major part to play in this.
After all he probably wanted to move on those people who had suddenly arrived in Turkey.
Greece doesn't have the wherewithal to cope so they didn't care if they wandered off towards Germany.
I think it became a go to mantra to claim all of these people were fleeing Syria and the media together with a lot of aid agencies fed this myth.
The media have had a huge part to play in this and anyone that did not follow the groupthink was either ignored or lambasted.

See how the groupthink turned on Viktor Urkan and the EU were full set to try bull him out of office.

Politicians started buying into as well and they may have their own selfish reasons for doing so.
There is the whole conspiracy that certain parties are tyring to ensure future generations of voters and that certain vested interests want to break down the nation states. Conspiracy maybe, maybe not.
Then Merkel opened her big mouth and the floodgates opened.

There are even stories of Afghani family flying into Iran, crossing into Eastern Turkey and then eventually paying trafficker to get them to Greece.
Then also you have poor Turks, Iranians, Albanians, Kosvans and you see chance of getting into Germany or Sweden.
Hell for some of these people it is just case of hopping on a bus to nearest border, lose your identification and hey presto you are another Syrian refugee.

Meanwhile the real refugees, the ones not rich enough to pay traffickers
are sitting with no hope in a tent in Lebanon or Jordan.

It's futile debating with someone who subscribes to the notion that certain races or nationalities cannot govern themselves. It really is.

Dyr · 26-07-2016 10:40AM

HensVassal wrote: »

It's a piece of cloth, much like a cloak or a mini-skirt.

People on this forum yammer like clowns about how Iranian women must wear a head scrarf in public.

Are you making things up again?

Dear oh dear

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 10:47AM

anon71 wrote: »

I don't crave fear. I don't want to be scared.

I've been in 3 locations in Ireland over the last few days which were very crowded. I've consciously started looking around me and watching for anyone looking suspicious.
And by anyone I mean a certain skintone, a certain hair colour, carrying a backpack.
Today in my local TK Maxx a man came in, my antenna went off and I nearly had a panic attack looking to see where my husband was. Purely because of his dress, skin colour and general demeanour.
Mind you it occurred to me afterwards that my first instinct was to get away and screw everyone else. Not too sure how I would have felt had something happened.

I'm a middle aged woman. I've always considered myself to be a sensible person, not concerned with someone's skin colour or religion.

But I'm scared. And people can say I'm being hysterical and that nothing will happen here. Fact is, no-one knows that.

Listening to the radio this evening, a man being interviewed talking about men who hadn't previously been particularly religious but suddenly feeling that they need to make atonement. Men suffering from mental illness who are influenced by what they are seeing happening.

I'm scared. I'm fearful. I hate that that's how I feel. But it is. And I know from talking to others and listening to other that I'm not alone. But to say it out loud is "letting them win" and "being hysterical". I don't think anyone's winning here. I just want to go about my business and not be afraid.

I haven't read the whole thread. And I'm not having a go at the poster that I quoted. It's just the words struck a chord with me.

If it makes you feel any better, more people die each year from bee stings than from any act of terrorism. You're just letting your imagination run riot. Calm down, you're creating fear inside yourself where none should be. Nobody wants to hurt you.

Mary63 · 26-07-2016 10:50AM

we definitely shouldn't ban the face coverings or anything else the muslims want to wear.As long as they don't seek to impose their beliefs on me I don't care what they do.

The French have been singled out for special hatred in the Jihad rantings and I believe thats because the french decided no one was wearing face coverings.

If we do that here none of us are going to be safe at any public gathering.Do you seriously want to see your child blown to bits because of someone else's face covering,I don't.

The Irish Government are this week organising transport to Ireland for Syrian refugees,how do we know among them aren't men who intend to murder us all.I can't imagine how that German family who offers a room to the Afghan asylum seeker feel after he attacked innocent people on a train with an axe,he probably took the axe from the host families garage.

Thousands of Irish people pledged to accommodate the syrians in their own home,I wonder how they feel about their generosity now.

Sofiztikated · 26-07-2016 10:58AM

Some data, if anyone is interested in having a look.

http://www.datagraver.com/thumbs/1000x1000r/2016-07/we-terrorism-upd2016-7.png

Yes, there is an upswing in attacks and deaths, but we're not at the 70's and 80's levels.

jmayo · 26-07-2016 10:59AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Really?

'Ninja style' is a far more meaningful expression to most people than the rather sedate 'classical niqab'.

We're still allowed to have fun with language, are we not?

Lightly poking fun at religion is emblematic of our liberty. If a grown adult is going to speak to men with her face covered in case we might seduce her, at least allow us the courtesy of lightly mocking such a daft notion.

We owe a basic level of decency to our fellow humans, until such time as they fail to reciprocate that respect. But under no circumstances is any belief system automatically afforded freedom from satire, be that Capitalism, Socialism, Christianity, or Islam.

Haven't you got the memo yet ?
One cannot poke fun at the "religion of peace".
After all remember what happened to Danish interests in the muslim world when someone in Denmark published a cartoon.

And just remember what happened to the Charlie Hebdo employees.

Gatling wrote: »

Think a 1400 year old book needs a little updating

Understatement of the bloody decade.

Polo_Mint wrote: »

That's why I'm asking the question

Is the EU importing known terrorists with ideological terrorist views.

or

Are we seeing Murder-suicides based on desperation, depression and mental health pledging allegiance to ISIS days before attacks to grab an Audience.

The common thread is that the people carrying out these attacks are arrivals from the muslim world of North Africa, Middle East and central Asia.
Either way we appear to be getting the dregs of this world and not the promised engineers, doctors and scientists. :rolleyes:

HensVassal wrote: »

It's futile debating with someone who subscribes to the notion that certain races or nationalities cannot govern themselves. It really is.

I really wonder how come you are still here and other posters with a different opinion aren't ?

So please tell me of one Muslim state in Middle East or North Africa that is not either a failed state, a dictatorship or an absolute monarchy ?
Tell us of the ones that offer freedom of expression, particularly religious and sexual expression.
Oh wait let me guess we will have Turkey.
Oh but isn't their leader ousting secular people in positions of power, rolling back the secular controls introduced by Ataturk ?

Egypt was a prime example of what happens when the people actually have a chance of electing a government.
They elect a repressive regime that tried to drag the country backward.
I wont even bother trying to discuss how the likes of Iraq and Libya regressed into tribal, religious and ethnic warfare once their dictators were removed.
Even go as far as the very populous muslim states of Pakistan and Bangladesh and you find history of military juntas interspersed with some single party democracies.

Dyr · 26-07-2016 11:00AM

HensVassal wrote: »

You are gulty of some serious amount of deflection and prevarication. You want muslim head wear to be banned for reasons you don't explain other than it's not "normal". I asked what you would have to say about goths and you or some other poster say that goths don't go around blowing up night-clubs. Does that mean now that you want hijabs banned because Muslim women go around blowing up night clubs?
And how would banning the clothes that a person wears have any effect on whether they commit a crime or not.

Just for a laugh, quote me where I used the term "not normal". Then you can quote me where I said something should be banned

Don't you worry that even when you just make stuff up that you still havent a leg stand on

. It's like watching a false analogy macro firing away randomly at this stage

KindOfIrish · 26-07-2016 11:08AM

HensVassal wrote: »

If it makes you feel any better, more people die each year from bee stings than from any act of terrorism. You're just letting your imagination run riot. Calm down, you're creating fear inside yourself where none should be. Nobody wants to hurt you.

While you've been praising here your friends "Syrian refugees", they cut throat to Christian priest in France.

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 11:14AM

conorhal wrote: »

Are you aware that most women that undergo FGM have it perpetrated upon them by women at the behest of women? It's amazing the 'choices' you make when you're brainwashed from birth to accept subservience.
Then there are the likes of Channel 4 reporter Fatima Manji who never wore a hijab, until recently, for whom it is a political decision. There's a lot of that going on too, a clear message of a rejection of Western values. Why else would you choose to wear desert clothes in a place like Dublin?

Are you aware that the country where the majority of female circumcisions occur is Ethiopia....a Christian country? Just in case you were trying to shoehorn the whole FGM thing into a discussion about Islam.

munchkin_utd · 26-07-2016 11:24AM

HensVassal wrote: »

Are you aware that the country where the majority of female circumcisions occur is Ethiopia....a Christian country? Just in case you were trying to shoehorn the whole FGM thing into a discussion about Islam.

and indeed, our culprit in Ansbach suffered FGM

- oh, hang on - it was a guy so no, its NOTHING to do with the attack in Ansbach
(at least nobody is mentioning the poor suffering chickens any more, so thats one positive)

funny how discussion of Charlie Haughey and Michael Lowry (due to the investigation of Ansbacher accounts named after where this attack happened) is probably more justified as an on topic subject than the stuff that has taken up pages of pure tripe

Widdershins · 26-07-2016 11:29AM

HensVassal wrote: »

Are you aware that the country where the majority of female circumcisions occur is Ethiopia....a Christian country? Just in case you were trying to shoehorn the whole FGM thing into a discussion about Islam.

I assume they weren't shoehorning anything . FGM is widespread in Islamic cultures .

topper75 · 26-07-2016 11:30AM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

with the numbers involved you really would have to set up the equivalent of modern day concentration camps to deal with the deportations if you wanted to lock up people automatically.

So long as no starvation, brutality, or forced labour etc., what would be wrong with it?

It would be a practical solution in what are, let's be honest, dire circumstances.

Or you could do nothing.

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 11:33AM

jmayo wrote: »

Haven't you got the memo yet ?
One cannot poke fun at the "religion of peace".
After all remember what happened to Danish interests in the muslim world when someone in Denmark published a cartoon.

And just remember what happened to the Charlie Hebdo employees.

Understatement of the bloody decade.

The common thread is that the people carrying out these attacks are arrivals from the muslim world of North Africa, Middle East and central Asia.
Either way we appear to be getting the dregs of this world and not the promised engineers, doctors and scientists. :rolleyes:

I really wonder how come you are still here and other posters with a different opinion aren't ?

So please tell me of one Muslim state in Middle East or North Africa that is not either a failed state, a dictatorship or an absolute monarchy ?
Tell us of the ones that offer freedom of expression, particularly religious and sexual expression.
Oh wait let me guess we will have Turkey.
Oh but isn't their leader ousting secular people in positions of power, rolling back the secular controls introduced by Ataturk ?

Egypt was a prime example of what happens when the people actually have a chance of electing a government.
They elect a repressive regime that tried to drag the country backward.
I wont even bother trying to discuss how the likes of Iraq and Libya regressed into tribal, religious and ethnic warfare once their dictators were removed.
Even go as far as the very populous muslim states of Pakistan and Bangladesh and you find history of military juntas interspersed with some single party democracies.

Are you trying to make the deduction that:

1. There are a bunch of countries that are governmental basket cases.

2. The majority religion in these countries is Islam.

Conclusion: Muslims can't govern themselves.

Is that what you're trying to say?

Go back a little through the history of these places and see if they ever conformed to your accepted notions of self-determination. Were they failed states since the dawn of Islam? Or did they actually have functioning societal norms and instruments of governance? How did they fare after being invaded, occupied and carved up under Sykes-Picot? Or the colonial boundary redrawing of African states on purely random grounds?

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 11:33AM

People are quite keen to suggest that we set up concentration camps and deport Muslim but they're not suggesting that we stop bombing their countries.

jmayo · 26-07-2016 11:34AM

HensVassal wrote: »

Are you aware that the country where the majority of female circumcisions occur is Ethiopia....a Christian country? Just in case you were trying to shoehorn the whole FGM thing into a discussion about Islam.

Did you know that 34% of the population of 100 odd million are muslim.
And in Eritrea it is 36% of the 6 odd million population.
That is over 30 million muslims, no small amount I would think.

Ethiopia is home to Harar.
According to UNESCO, it is regarded as the fourth holy city of Islam.

So trying to spin it somehow as completely a christian country is a bit disingenuous.

BTW I don't have a clue who does or doesn't engage in FGM so not arguing that just trying to correct your slightly false assertions.

munchkin_utd · 26-07-2016 11:46AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

People are quite keen to suggest that we set up concentration camps and deport Muslim but they're not suggesting that we stop bombing their countries.

at least its more on topic than FGM and womens clothing on a thread about a male attacker.

topper75 · 26-07-2016 11:50AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

People are quite keen to suggest that we set up concentration camps and deport Muslim but they're not suggesting that we stop bombing their countries.

Agree to a point. There have been some sticks poked in the wasps' nest.

However, not all influx is from war zones.

I wouldn't keep people in camps for fun. But when undocumented are arriving in such numbers carrying with them some violent individuals hellbent on murder - that is dire circumstances for Germany et al.

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 11:52AM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

at least its more on topic than FGM and womens clothing on a thread about a male attacker.

Its a far better solution to stop with out foreign interventions than to put millions into concentration camps.
Seems like the right wing has elements of nazi ideology in their agenda.

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 11:53AM

jmayo wrote: »

Did you know that 34% of the population of 100 odd million are muslim.
And in Eritrea it is 36% of the 6 odd million population.
That is over 30 million muslims, no small amount I would think.

Ethiopia is home to Harar.
According to UNESCO, it is regarded as the fourth holy city of Islam.

So trying to spin it somehow as completely a christian country is a bit disingenuous.

BTW I don't have a clue who does or doesn't engage in FGM so not arguing that just trying to correct your slightly false assertions.

And trying to spin Muslim countries as basket cases when they were relatively stable before they were interfered with from Western influences is also a bit disengenuous.

It's lost on some of the people here who are constantly talking about removing leaders in Muslim countries to make them "safe for democracy" (or is that safe for US corporations to plunder?) and then they bitch about refugees and sectarian strife in these places when it was the very leaders that they sought to overthrow and did overthrow who kept all that shit in check in the first place.

:pac:

topper75 · 26-07-2016 11:55AM

Not all camps are death camps!

unseenfootage · 26-07-2016 11:55AM

topper75 wrote: »

Agree to a point. There have been some sticks poked in the wasps' nest.

However, not all influx is from war zones.

I wouldn't keep people in camps for fun. But when undocumented are arriving in such numbers carrying with them some violent individuals hellbent on murder - that is dire circumstances for Germany et al.

So far the migrants who have committed terrorist attacks are from countries that we have been bombing, namely Syria and Afghanistan.

HensVassal · 26-07-2016 11:58AM

unseenfootage wrote: »

People are quite keen to suggest that we set up concentration camps and deport Muslim but they're not suggesting that we stop bombing their countries.

That's because people are in denial about bombing Muslim countries. They actually think that they [muslims people] are thankful that their homes and their families are being blown to pieces and that their lives are in tatters because all that is a small price to pay for not having a leader like Ghadaffi who provided everyone with free electricity, petrol, water, education and healthcare in the richest and most stable country in Africa.

Explosion in bar in Ansbach, Germany

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