Explosion in bar in Ansbach, Germany

Dyr · 25-07-2016 10:05AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Are you confusing niqabs with burkas, by any chance?

Nope, I see the full binliner being worn around dublin on a regular basis

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 25-07-2016 10:06AM

Shenshen wrote: »

The couple of threads in the last few days have made me wonder if people actually crave fear in some way. Do they want to be scared?

Well when you're not sure if you're going to come back alive from visiting another country, France, Belgium, Germany, Turkey etc because of backwards lunatics representing the religion of peace strapping explosives on themselves, attacking people with axes, driving trucks through crowds, opening fire on unsuspecting people... I wouldn't exactly say fear would be an irrational feeling.

25-07-2016 10:06AM

Shenshen wrote: »

The couple of threads in the last few days have made me wonder if people actually crave fear in some way. Do they want to be scared?

Absolutely correct. I believe there are multiple causes of the exaggerated fearfulness; one is that the internet can act as a vector of hysteria, but another is that some people love to be spooked. I think the two factors play off one another, and completely distort people's perception of risk.

A few years ago, I read a book of essays recounting ordinary Londoners' memories of life under the Blitz during WW2. Amid the shocking descriptions of screaming bombs and the mutilations of human beings, I was amazed by the poised and nervy attitude of men and women alike, many of whom were mostly annoyed by the inconvenience, and managed to hide whatever fears they had from their children and dependents.

Panic was treated compassionately, from what I could gather, but was a hindrance to getting on with life, which was their main preoccupation.

These days, we seem obsessed with frenzy, and many are keen to pour our excited panic down every cable, every microphone, to have it rise up into the satellites orbiting our globe and declare to the world, "this is frightening, we should all be very afraid!". It does nobody any good at all. We as a society need to once again catch hold of our reason and our intelligence.

The degree to which we allow terrorism to dominate our policy and outlook is totally disproportionate to the risk of death or injury by terrorism in our society.

SnakePlissken · 25-07-2016 10:08AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Are you confusing niqabs with burkas, by any chance?

Is there that much of a distinction between the two? Until they're worn too by the men who insist upon them, they both should be considered as the misogynistic trappings that they are... Hijabs I take no issue with whatsoever

Shenshen · 25-07-2016 10:08AM

Lau2976 wrote: »

You've really never seen someone in a burka? Have you ever been to Dublin city centre? I see people in Burkas every day in all parts of the city. And most other towns, Galway, Cork, Limerick, etc

I lived in Dublin until recently and now live in Cork.
I've visited Galway and Limerick a few times, too. And I quite regularly shop in Muslim shops, as I can't get some ingredients for my food anywhere else.
And yes, I've seen a niqab or two. I've never seen a burka.

RandomName2 · 25-07-2016 10:11AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Greece, then? A country the EU just recently had to bail out and which can barely support its own population, nevermind launch an organised attempt at securing every meter of it's several thousand kilometre sea borders?

Good point. A year ago I would have suggested Greece sending them back to Turkey, but that is considerably more complicated now.

Shenshen wrote: »

I thought we were talking about Germany and Ireland here? Will we be looking at the situation in Canada next?

There's precedent.

HamsterFace · 25-07-2016 10:11AM

Shenshen wrote:

I lived in Dublin until recently and now live in Cork. I've visited Galway and Limerick a few times, too. And I quite regularly shop in Muslim shops, as I can't get some ingredients for my food anywhere else. And yes, I've seen a niqab or two. I've never seen a burka.

Does the misogynist nature of the niqab bother you?

Yamanoto · 25-07-2016 10:11AM

Turns out Michael Graham was right - we are a bunch of euro-weenies.

Despite his failed asylum application the man was still living in Germany because, given the civil war in Syria, authorities do not send people back there except if they are involved in serious crimes.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 25-07-2016 10:12AM

I've seen burquas in my small town and in Dublin city. That's where you can't see their eyes, right?

Walter H Price · 25-07-2016 10:12AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Where would you send someone without documentation? Where would you return them to if you can't establish where they came from? Which country would take them back if you can't prove they are a citizen?

How many Burkas have you seen on European streets so far? I've never seen one in my life.
Sharia is not a recognised legal system. Child marriages already are illegal.
If you want to ban halal slaughter, you will find you'll also have to ban kosher slaughter.
Germany tried to ban male genital mutilation in babies (circumcision to you and me) a few years ago, as it doesn't tie in with the legal system to perform unnecessary medical operations on children. They ended up having to change their laws as it upset the Jewish community massively.

i see pleanty of Burka's everyday in Dublin , i work on Talbot street theres a Mosque there , there are allso loads around town , Blanchardstown etc ... maybe if you live in the Sticks you wont.

Halal Slaughter is carried out here on a routine basis , my mother previously worked for the state lab an was utterly appalled by the cruelty and suffering the animal endured during it so much so that she left her job and became a vegetarian , because not only is it routine practice here that many meat factory's have a minimum of 1 halal day a week this meat is not labeled so cannot be easily avoided.

There are Sharia Courts active across most of mainland Europe including in France , Germany , Belgium and the UK (in fact no prime minister Thresa May , acknowledged these and supported them during her time as Home secretary ) where i spend a good bit of time , if you want to see Burkas BTW head to Birmingham New Street on a Saturday morning.

While child marriages are not allowed to be carried out in Europe these marriages are recognized if they have taken place elsewhere some governments incl Sweden and France are allowing older Male Pedophiles in camps and reception centers unsupervised visitation with their Child brides, a friend of mine spent some time in the Jungle camp in Calais last year with the red cross and said this was one of the most disturbing practices she had ever witnessed openly allowed by Govermnt and NGO agencies. and the mental and physical suffering of children as young as 9 left a real impression on her.

Terrorism the boms , shootings , stabbings etc is just one tiny element of the problem Europe faces from Islamic refugees for me the far more disturbing thing is the emerging tolerance for and acceptance of Cultural Islam in Europe.

If they have no documents they should be put back on a boat and sent back to wherever they crossed into Europe from.

Shenshen · 25-07-2016 10:12AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Well when you're not sure if you're going to come back alive from visiting another country, France, Belgium, Germany, Turkey etc because of backwards lunatics representing the religion of peace strapping explosives on themselves, attacking people with axes, driving trucks through crowds, opening fire on unsuspecting people... I wouldn't exactly say fear would be an irrational feeling.

I've posted that yesterday, but can't remember in which one of the panik threads - this year to date, over 800 people have been killed in car crashes in Germany.

10 have been killed by people on a rampage, 1 by Islamic extremists so far.

And you think the rational thing to worry about is the Islamists?

Dyr · 25-07-2016 10:13AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Are you confusing niqabs with burkas, by any chance?

Are you making the argument that "sure, them niqabs are grand lads, nothing like the full burqa"

Both are ridiculous and have no place in Ireland

Bob24 · 25-07-2016 10:13AM

Shenshen wrote: »

I've been to all of those places and never saw a single one.
I've also never seen one in Frankfurt, Berlin, Munich, Bamberg or Cork.

Either you are not paying attention or you don't go out to these places very often. I live in Dublin city centre and it is a regular occurrence, especially in the O'Connell Street area. I am not saying they are everywhere, but if you are around there regularly you have to see woman wearing the burka.

Shenshen · 25-07-2016 10:15AM

HamsterFace wrote: »

Does the misogynist nature of the niqab bother you?

What bothers me personally most about bruqas and niqabs (as well as any other overyl-covering style of clothes) is the derogatory message it sends about men - the wearer apparently regards men as little more than instinct-driven animals who can't be trusted to control themselves not to assualt or rape any female they see too much of.

As a woman, I find this the most unsettling.

listermint · 25-07-2016 10:16AM

Walter H Price wrote: »

i see pleanty of Burka's everyday in Dublin , i work on Talbot street theres a Mosque there , there are allso loads around town , Blanchardstown etc ... maybe if you live in the Sticks you wont.

Halal Slaughter is carried out here on a routine basis , my mother previously worked for the state lab an was utterly appalled by the cruelty and suffering the animal endured during it so much so that she left her job and became a vegetarian , because not only is it routine practice here that many meat factory's have a minimum of 1 halal day a week this meat is not labeled so cannot be easily avoided.

There are Sharia Courts active across most of mainland Europe including in France , Germany , Belgium and the UK (in fact no prime minister Thresa May , acknowledged these and supported them during her time as Home secretary ) where i spend a good bit of time , if you want to see Burkas BTW head to Birmingham New Street on a Saturday morning.

While child marriages are not allowed to be carried out in Europe these marriages are recognized if they have taken place elsewhere some governments incl Sweden and France are allowing older Male Pedophiles in camps and reception centers unsupervised visitation with their Child brides, a friend of mine spent some time in the Jungle camp in Calais last year with the red cross and said this was one of the most disturbing practices she had ever witnessed openly allowed by Govermnt and NGO agencies. and the mental and physical suffering of children as young as 9 left a real impression on her.

Terrorism the boms , shootings , stabbings etc is just one tiny element of the problem Europe faces from Islamic refugees for me the far more disturbing thing is the emerging tolerance for and acceptance of Cultural Islam in Europe.

If they have no documents they should be put back on a boat and sent back to wherever they crossed into Europe from.

Just as an observation, you sisters friends and yourself seem to have quite a vast array of direct experience to support your arguments.

Handy that.

Pro Hoc Vice · 25-07-2016 10:17AM

RandomName2 wrote: »

1. Less than half of the migrants are refugees from Syria. Some reports put it as low as 40%. I'd suggest not taking in people from outside of Syria.

2. The gulf states (with the hilarious exception of Iraq) aren't taking in any refugees at all. The West can exert pressure to change that.

3. Backing Assad would have caused the collapse of ISIS years ago, but because he is in the same camp as Iran and Russia this cannot be countenanced by the West (we don't care if he's a dictator, the point is he isn't our dictator)

The Gulf states have taken in 2-3 million Syrians, in the Gulf states they are called "Arab brothers and Sisters in distress" Saudi has given 100,000 residency permits and hosts 500,000 Syrians.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8280448.html

speedboatchase · 25-07-2016 10:18AM

SnakePlissken wrote: »

I don't know, perhaps the millions of able bodied men fleeing these war zones should perhaps fight for their homelands instead of showing their cowardice. And yes, if your rebuttal to this statement is to ask would I fight for my country should it ever be invaded by foreign mercenaries fighting a proxy war, then yes, yes I would.

The soldiers are cowards too. Mosul - which is the biggest area ISIS holds in Iraq - fell after about 800-1,200 ISIS fighters defeated 30,000 Iraqi troops. During the battle 500,000 people fled.

So 800-1,300 terrorists won because 30,000 soldiers and 500,000 citizens let it happen. Oh, and right now the population of Mosul is estimated to be about 600,000.

All those people. Defeated by 800-1,200.

Stealthfins · 25-07-2016 10:20AM

Shenshen wrote:

I've been to all of those places and never saw a single one. I've also never seen one in Frankfurt, Berlin, Munich, Bamberg or Cork.

Maybe you have a problem distinguishing between a cello holder and a burka.

suicide_circus · 25-07-2016 10:20AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Absolutely correct. I believe there are multiple causes of the exaggerated fearfulness; one is that the internet can act as a vector of hysteria, but another is that some people love to be spooked. I think the two factors play off one another, and completely distort people's perception of risk.

A few years ago, I read a book of essays recounting ordinary Londoners' memories of life under the Blitz during WW2. Amid the shocking descriptions of screaming bombs and the mutilations of human beings, I was amazed by the poised and nervy attitude of men and women alike, many of whom were mostly annoyed by the inconvenience, and managed to hide whatever fears they had from their children and dependents.

Panic was treated compassionately, from what I could gather, but was a hindrance to getting on with life, which was their main preoccupation.

These days, we seem obsessed with frenzy, and many are keen to pour our excited panic down every cable, every microphone, to have it rise up into the satellites orbiting our globe and declare to the world, "this is frightening, we should all be very afraid!". It does nobody any good at all. We as a society need to once again catch hold of our reason and our intelligence.

The degree to which we allow terrorism to dominate our policy and outlook is totally disproportionate to the risk of death or injury by terrorism in our society.

24/7 news cycle and clickbait media has a lot to do with it. If the people of wartime London had a device in their pocket which buzzed and told them every time an atrocity happened, or had Kay Burley in their kitchens showing bereaved families wailing over their morning toast maybe they wouldn't have been so stoic. Besides, these people would have all had family members who endured WW1 and the horrors that brought. They would also more than likely have had a genuine belief in God and pride in king and country to bolster them, things modern Europeans don't have. Context is everything.

munchkin_utd · 25-07-2016 10:20AM

Shenshen wrote: »

I've posted that yesterday, but can't remember in which one of the panik threads - this year to date, over 800 people have been killed in car crashes in Germany.

10 have been killed by people on a rampage, 1 by Islamic extremists so far.

And you think the rational thing to worry about is the Islamists?

yep, the stats on accident deaths are mental.

In 1970 there was 21 332 killed on the roads in Germany. Thats thankfully fallen to "just" 3 339 killed in 2013 - but jesus, to go into a panic over 2 lads who killed nobody except themselves, and a manic depressive sociopathic school shooter who idiolised gun rampages in the USA and Norway (and didnt find his comfort in islamic teachings or violence) is just way over the top when theres the amount killed in the troubles in northern ireland dieing on the roads each year in Germany. https://www.destatis.de/DE/PresseService/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/2014/07/PD14_238_46241.html

I live a couple of miles from that tragic shooting in Munich and I'm chilled about it. Its sad, but a family of 5 were squished by a truck which crashed into them at the end of a traffic jam on the autobahn and killed instantly a couple of weeks back near Nürnberg which is equally as tragic.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 25-07-2016 10:22AM

Shenshen wrote: »

I've posted that yesterday, but can't remember in which one of the panik threads - this year to date, over 800 people have been killed in car crashes in Germany.

10 have been killed by people on a rampage, 1 by Islamic extremists so far.

And you think the rational thing to worry about is the Islamists?

It absolutely is rational to worry. There's so many terrorist attacks now that even here, we need a mega thread rather than a seperate thread for each one. Had he got into the concert last night would you be saying the same thing, that it's NBD, there's more car crashes?

If I get into a car and the car is moving, I can worry about being in an accident then. I can be super careful, stay alert, not speed, pay attention at junctions etc. If I'm very afraid of being in an accident, I can completely avoid being in a car.

How is that comparable to terrorist attacks? There's been what, 3 this week alone? How can you keep yourself safe there? Don't travel? Don't go to concerts, or celebrate public holidays? Don't go out to the shopping mall, don't go to a wine bar? Don't step outside your front door and let the religion of peace reign terror all over the west. But it's our fault for being scared?

suicide_circus · 25-07-2016 10:23AM

I live in Dublin city centre and see a woman in a burka meekly following her husband about once or twice a week.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 25-07-2016 10:26AM

Shenshen wrote: »

What bothers me personally most about bruqas and niqabs (as well as any other overyl-covering style of clothes) is the derogatory message it sends about men - the wearer apparently regards men as little more than instinct-driven animals who can't be trusted to control themselves not to assualt or rape any female they see too much of.

As a woman, I find this the most unsettling.

Well, the refugee men in Sweden and Germany are doing their fair share of raping and sexually assaulting the infidel women with no headgear on them, so maybe Islamic women are pretty right in their assumption as they've grown up with men with that attitude that women are a piece of meat, second class citizens. A religion that would stone a woman for being raped.

SnakePlissken · 25-07-2016 10:28AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

The soldiers are cowards too. Mosul - which is the biggest area ISIS holds in Iraq - fell after about 800-1,200 ISIS fighters defeated 30,000 Iraqi troops. During the battle 500,000 people fled.

So 800-1,300 terrorists won because 30,000 soldiers and 500,000 citizens let it happen. Oh, and right now the population of Mosul is estimated to be about 600,000.

All those people. Defeated by 800-1,200.

Exactly my point, it's been well established that Iraq fell to daesh due to the army's cowardice, their failure was an absolute embarrassment. As for the naive fools who surrendered to Deash, it's not surprising how their captors did not adhere to the rules of the Geneva convention, put simply, if you ever find yourself on the battlefield against a muslim army, fight to the death, history shows your surrender will not be rewarded

Dyr · 25-07-2016 10:30AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Well, the refugee men in Sweden and Germany are doing their fair share of raping and sexually assaulting the infidel women with no headgear on them, so maybe Islamic women are pretty right in their assumption as they've grown up with men with that attitude that women are a piece of meat, second class citizens. A religion that would stone a woman for being raped.

Islam is fairly heavy on the ould misogyny with the rapeyness and acid throwing and what not.

Walter H Price · 25-07-2016 10:32AM

listermint wrote: »

Just as an observation, you sisters friends and yourself seem to have quite a vast array of direct experience to support your arguments.

Handy that.

Believe it dont believe it , My mother is a scientist has worked for both the State lab and Teagsc in the meat quality testing areas , envolved time spent in slaughter houses and would geraeraly be very tolerant and liberal but having seen it first hand , she is 110% opposed to Halal slaughter.

And i Have one friend who is in the Red Cross , She has spent time away in a few places, she has had may shocking and somtimes inspiring stories from people shes met in a number of awful situations , but she came back from that camp in Calais really disturbed by what she had seen been openly allowed by not just the red cross but all of the NGO's and government bodies working there.

Mybe they are lieng too but i trust them , it dost suit my narititve rather it has shaped it . I didnt lear all i know of Islam from 9/11 or 7/7 i leaned it from direct expeience with muslim intolerance in college and through what my mother and one of my best friends have experienced first hand and to be honest if you do a simple web search there are plenty of reports on this availible online , maybe just not in the mainstream media.

Widdershins · 25-07-2016 10:35AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Are you confusing niqabs with burkas, by any chance?

No I'm sure they aren't as I have seen them too. I'm amazed you haven't . Especially visible in the last 6 month in Limerick , Ennis and Galway . Full black burqas with niqab or possibly even chador) face veil, only the eyes visible . I often see them when passing the pedestrian crossing between the jeweller shop and Debenhams in Limerick city. It's a striking sight . The first Muslim clothing store opened in Limerick last year .

25-07-2016 10:45AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

24/7 news cycle and clickbait media has a lot to do with it. If the people of wartime London had a device in their pocket which buzzed and told them every time an atrocity happened, or had Kay Burley in their kitchens showing bereaved families wailing over their morning toast maybe they wouldn't have been so stoic. Besides, these people would have all had family members who endured WW1 and the horrors that brought. They would also more than likely have had a genuine belief in God and pride in king and country to bolster them, things modern Europeans don't have. Context is everything.

Yes, I agree with all that. I'm not suggesting these stoical Londoners were superhuman, or anything like that.

But we are all intelligent people, we are capable of reasoning with our instincts. Whilst we must have a meaningful discussion about terrorism, we must also try to be less fretful. We can all do that much. It is in our own best interests to harden our resolve, and it sets a good example for our children. It also is the best weapon that we as ordinary citizens can deploy against the likes of ISIS. Declaring our fear is like jetfuel for their actions.

They cannot sustain themselves unless they cause panic, and unfortunately we are indulging them.

So lets just carry on as normal, continue to fly, and socialise, enjoy all the freedoms we have made for ourselves, and share those freedoms with newcomers.

BoJack Horseman · 25-07-2016 10:53AM

Bambi wrote: »

Islam is fairly heavy on the ould misogyny with the rapeyness and acid throwing and what not.

eh.... please refer to this as 'cultural enrichment' if you don't mind.

We can't be seen as offensive!

HensVassal · 25-07-2016 10:58AM

Herb Powell wrote: »

Pretty sure they're not that complicated at all.

Then you know how to make one? Because if not then you can't say with any degree of confidence how easy it is.

Explosion in bar in Ansbach, Germany

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