Up to 85 civilians killed by mistake

Virgil° · 20-07-2016 07:17PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Na they don't do that, just make mistakes.

Lots and lots and lots of mistakes

unseenfootage wrote: »

Not sure if bombing Mosul university was a mistake.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/british-hostage-john-cantlie-appears-in-new-isis-propaganda-video

Continues to hold breath......

suicide_circus · 20-07-2016 07:18PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Meanwhile, US backed and armed rebels 'accidentally' behead boy.

http://us.cnn.com/2016/07/20/middleeast/boy-beheaded-in-syria/index.html

Can't see any mention whatsoever on that site about the 100+ killed directly by the US today. Funny old world, eh?

Yeah, psychopath beheads child. Probably America's fault.

Grayson · 20-07-2016 07:19PM

Virgil° wrote: »

It is obviously awful that 85 innocent civilians died. Somebody in charge made a terrible/horrendous mistake. Somebody in charge should be but probably will not be held accountable and that is heinous if it comes to pass.

However to conflate this disaster with recent acts of terrorism is completely dishonest point scoring. Walking into a concert with kalashnikovs, driving a lorry into crowds of people, suicide bombing an airport terminal, where the intent is to maim and murder innocents ultimately to inspire fear, hatred and divide peoples simply isn't comparible to this in any way.

This is very simple:
I hope everyone here understands the difference between manslaughter and premeditated murder? I should also hope everyone understands why we punish one more harshly than the other? Further to this I hope people understand that pointing this obvious fact out is not the same as condoning or encouraging manslaughter?

It depends on the type of "mistake". There's a good book called "amongst the cities of the dead" in which the philosopher AC Grayling looks at the bombing of Germany by the allies.
If the americans didn't have proper safeguards in place it's far worse than an "mistake". If they saw civilians but thought they were just collateral, then it's worse.
having said that, I don't see any evidence that the above happened. I can only hope that the US military have a thorough investigation. If there was any way to avoid it I hope the people responsible face justice. Unfortunately we can't be certain that happens. We've seen with previous examples in Iraq how the US can be caviller with human life.

darkpagandeath · 20-07-2016 07:20PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Not sure if bombing Mosul university was a mistake.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/british-hostage-john-cantlie-appears-in-new-isis-propaganda-video

Creditability shot, I'm out if you are using ISIS propaganda videos for backup.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 07:23PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Creditability shot, I'm out if you are using ISIS propaganda videos for backup.

(Game of thrones comes to mind ,Shame ,shame )

It seems Isis were using the university as a headquarters under the belief that they were untouchable while using the campus,

BoJack Horseman · 20-07-2016 07:23PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Meanwhile, US backed and armed rebels 'accidentally' behead boy

That video is all over twitter.... seen it yesterday.

Of all the many videos like this I've seen, that one was probably one of the most tragic.
The boy could not have been older than 10.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 07:25PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That video is all over twitter.... seen it yesterday.

Of all the many videos like this I've seen, that one was probably one of the most tragic.
The boy could not have been older than 10.

Nasty stuff definitely under 10

My name is URL · 20-07-2016 07:26PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Yeah, psychopath beheads child. Probably America's fault.

The US has armed and given its backing and blessing to such psychopaths.

Lemme guess though, just another innocent mistake on their part?

Oh well then, that's just dandy :rolleyes:

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:29PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Creditability shot, I'm out if you are using ISIS propaganda videos for backup.

So none of the MSM who reported on this video about US targeting the university are credible?
I haven't seen the video but the Guardian report shows a still image of Cantlie standing in front of what appears to be the bombed university.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:31PM

My name is URL wrote: »

The US has armed and given its backing and blessing to such psychopaths.

Lemme guess though, just another innocent mistake on their part?

Oh well then, that's just dandy :rolleyes:

Its a bit of a stretch to blame the US for some of these rebels beheading a child.

karma_ · 20-07-2016 07:31PM

My name is URL wrote: »

The US has armed and given its backing and blessing to such psychopaths.

Lemme guess though, just another innocent mistake on their part?

Oh well then, that's just dandy :rolleyes:

But.. but... but US bombs are benevolent bombs!!!

darkpagandeath · 20-07-2016 07:33PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

So none of the MSM who reported on this video about US targeting the university are credible?
I haven't seen the video but the Guardian report shows a still image of Cantlie standing in front of what appears to be the bombed university.

Was it not a headquarters....

karma_ · 20-07-2016 07:34PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Its a bit of a stretch to blame the US for some of these rebels beheading a child.

Where do you draw the line? Is a murdering thug worth arming and supplying as long as he's 'your' murdering thug? The US directly aids these guys, and they act and behave like terrorists... yet the US get shielded from criticism for this?

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:36PM

Gatling wrote: »

(Game of thrones comes to mind ,Shame ,shame )

It seems Isis were using the university as a headquarters under the belief that they were untouchable while using the campus,

It also seems that they used the houses of the killed villagers as headquarters.

With this type of attitude any US bombing can be justified, just like any Israeli bombing can be justified.

All that needs to be done is use the "They fired from there." or "They used it as headquarters." line.

Why even bother to blame anything on mistakes?

darkpagandeath · 20-07-2016 07:39PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

It also seems that they used the houses of the killed villagers as headquarters.

With this type of attitude any US bombing can be justified, just like any Israeli bombing can be justified.

All that needs to be done is use the "They fired from there." or "They used it as headquarters."

Why even bother to blame anything on mistakes?

You do know what a Headquarters means ? Unfortunate fact is if they believed surrounding places with civilians stop bombing or action. They would be strapping civilians to everything.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:41PM

karma_ wrote: »

Where do you draw the line? Is a murdering thug worth arming and supplying as long as he's 'your' murdering thug? The US directly aids these guys, and they act and behave like terrorists... yet the US get shielded from criticism for this?

I have no dog in this fight, trust me, especially not the US or Russia.
US coalition only vets a small amount of fighters,that it trains, equips and supports.
Others are just supported and equipped mostly by Qatar/Saudi.

It is not US policy to behead anybody with a knife. The rebels did this by themselves. If USA has a share of the blame then it is indirectly.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:43PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You do know what a Headquarters means ? Unfortunate fact is if they believed surrounding places with civilians stop bombing or action. They would be strapping civilians to everything.

Of course.
ISIS straps civilians to everything.
There is one strapped civilian per square metre strapped to a thing.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 07:43PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

It also seems that they used the houses of the killed villagers as headquarters.

See thats what I don't get people take a fact and then twist it to fit an agenda ,
So as I said earlier Russian media is saying the French did it killed from 56 -220 civilians in this airstrike ,

Would love know more about these apparent prisoners that were killed wonder if a possible airstrike set off a cache of explosives

karma_ · 20-07-2016 07:46PM

Gatling wrote: »

See thats what I don't get people take a fact and then twist it to fit an agenda ,
So as I said earlier Russian media is saying the French did it killed from 56 -220 civilians in this airstrike ,

Would love know more about these apparent prisoners that were killed wonder if a possible airstrike set off a cache of explosives

So we should listen to the Russian media now is it Ted?

I'm only asking because every other time you bring the Russian media up it's to tell us not to trust it.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:47PM

Gatling wrote: »

See thats what I don't get people take a fact and then twist it to fit an agenda ,
So as I said earlier Russian media is saying the French did it killed from 56 -220 civilians in this airstrike ,

Would love know more about these apparent prisoners that were killed wonder if a possible airstrike set off a cache of explosives

Still solving the riddle of the prisoners?

I'd imagine that ISIS arrests criminals/spies and so on and then detains them in prisons until they punish them.

Not sure if they arrest and detain explosives but you may be on to something there.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 07:51PM

karma_ wrote: »

So we should listen to the Russian media now is it Ted?

I'm only asking because every other time you bring the Russian media up it's to tell us not to trust it.

Exactly why would the French be blamed only big bad Americans can bomb civilians apparently depending on who and what you believe

Gatling · 20-07-2016 07:52PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Still solving the riddle of the prisoners?

I'd imagine that ISIS arrests criminals/spies and so on and then detains them in prisons until they punish them.

Ah so who ever targeted this place was actually targeting Isis

darkpagandeath · 20-07-2016 07:53PM

Gatling wrote: »

Exactly why would the French be blamed only big bad Americans can bomb civilians apparently depending on who and what you believe

Is see what RT is at, Playing the they deserve what's happened to them. No political capital is ever wasted.

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 07:55PM

Gatling wrote: »

Ah so who ever targeted this place was actually targeting Isis

Were the prisoners ISIS?
I write that ISIS arrests criminals and spies.

darkpagandeath · 20-07-2016 07:58PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

Were the prisoners ISIS?
I write that ISIS arrests criminals and spies.

Terrorist Arrest people ?

BlaasForRafa · 20-07-2016 07:58PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

and it's a horrible tragedy that they got this call so awfully wrong. The commander's make thousands of impossibly difficult calls day in day out. The kind of calls most of us would literally crap our pants over if we had to make them.

One of the few reasonable and objective posts on this thread. Mistakes happen in war

In this video from Afghanistan an american plane drops a bomb on an american outpost, mistaking it for a taliban outpost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzBCgbicbA

In Iraq an American A-10 fires on a british column of vehicles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I6-2NJhnf4

Personally I think the west should probably stay out of the Syrian civil war (except to help the Kurds perhaps as they did in Kobane). The west won't get any thanks for helping and they'll only get s**t on when something goes disasterously wrong.

Gatling · 20-07-2016 07:59PM

unseenfootage wrote: »

I write that ISIS arrests criminals and spies.

Yes you did are you implying something else

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 08:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

Yes you did are you implying something else

So are the arrested people ISIS?

unseenfootage · 20-07-2016 08:16PM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Terrorist Arrest people ?

Define: Arrest.

20-07-2016 08:27PM

karma_ wrote: »

we can discuss ad nauseum about context and the how's or whys but what is the fundamental difference in the result?

The result is not contentious. *Everyone* agrees it's a major human catastrophe with devastating consequnces for affected families.

But the moral culpability is absolutely relevant.

To illustrate, let use use a less politically-charged example. Is there a difference in the degree moral culpability borne by a man who walks up to a stranger in the street and shoots them in the face, and a policeman who kills a suspect whom he genuinely, but mistakenly, believes poses a real & imminent danger to human life?

Nobody in their right mind could say that both the policeman and the murderer share identical moral culpability.

Both acts are wrongful, and I think both are deserving of punishment, but should be punished to different degrees.

A pilot who was merely in possession of imperfect information, or who made a reasonable error, if that is what happened, should not be treated like a terrorist. It is fundamentally dishonest to place him in the same moral category as a terrorist who goes out with the clear & unambiguous intention to murder as many civilians as he can.

Up to 85 civilians killed by mistake

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