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Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    If Islam wasn't a religion people would be comparing it to Nazi ideology. I think it is a horrific belief system and it has no place in our Western democracy. It should be banned. Just like how the Nazi flag is banned in Germany.

    That's a false analogy.

    The issue is extremism. Extremism in religion, politics, nationalism etc.

    When Irish men bombed pubs and restaurants it would have been entirely false to compare Irish nationalism with the Nazi ideology...
    Most Southerners could not stand the Irish nationalist ideology and still don't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,080 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I've always wondered - do you think it makes a difference for a little boy in the Middle East if he had his legs blown off due to an not-as-precise-as-planned Western missile, or by a car bomb ignited by a fanatic Muslim?

    From a philosophical point of view, I appreciate that it's a massive difference. But I would imagine for someone who had this happen to them it would be mush the same. The human reaction would be wanting to lash out at someone.

    And and ugly war in the Middle East has what to do with a North African Tunisian with French citizenship?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    I agree totally, and yet innocent people do get killed by these "precision" bombs and when isis post their vids online they don't say it was a precision bomb they say a western air strike.

    If it was just western bombs radicalising these people, then why do they commit terrorist acts on other muslims? Why the bombs in Baghdad?
    And why haven't there been Vietnamese terrorist attacks regularly in the US? Surely they got bombed enough to get radicalised?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    hmmm wrote: »
    Sure, that's what we could have done with the Nazi's - "leave them alone". The same way we left the Yazidi people alone. I see nothing wrong with allowing an ISIS caliphate to be formed in the Middle East, where they are free to plot how they are going to reform the full Caliphate, taking in Turkey, Spain, Eastern Europe etc., all the while carrying out ever more dangerous terrorist attacks on those who they see as their enemy. Sure. "Leave them alone".

    The problem is they weren't left alone. Colonialism ended around the world except in the Middle East where it just took on a new form.

    Now you have to stop ISIS, I mean they have to be stopped, but what comes next for the West's relationship with the region?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,129 ✭✭✭my friend


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I don't know much about the Quran, but I have read the bible. Shocked me to the core at the time, for years after I could not believe how Christians could possibly call their god a god of peace (it turned me from being Catholic to being atheist, at the same time). The bible is full to the brim of stories of how slaughtering women and children of conquered tribes pleased god, there are detailed instructions of how much you should charge when you sell your daughter into slavery, there are accounts of torture, rape, murder, you name it it'll be there. And all enacted by people the bible portrays as God's chosen, as the righteous.

    It did take me a while to figure out how modern, Western Christians can hold this to be a message of love - they ignore well over 3/4 of the book. Entirely.
    They are being brought up in values and philosophy to match enlightened thinkers, be it consciously or subconsciously, and then go and find bits that support their world view in the bible. The bits that don't fit are called "metaphors", or else will be considered to be just a reflection of the times.

    I think Islam is still missing that step at the moment. But there are in fact a number of Muslim scholars calling for a more metaphorical approach to the Quran and to step away from the compulsion to regard every word as pure truth.

    ^^^ all that typing to fail

    Your ignorance re the bible is comical, if you had studied it you would be aware of the old and new testaments, BC & AD

    But, carry on, spoof away, I'm intrigued by watching a fool attempt subterfuge.

    Mod: banned


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭RWCNT


    my friend wrote: »

    Your ignorance re the bible is comical, if you had studied it you would be aware of the old and new testaments, BC & AD

    What's your point? It would be nice to know the significance of you bringing this up rather than you just calling the poster a fool.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,928 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Western bombs are usually precision weapons which aim for terrorists first and foremost. They are not indiscriminate weapons that deliberately aim for innocent unarmed civilians like virtually all terrorist acts.

    Morally they aren't in the same ball park.

    Many multiples of Muslim civilians including children have been killed by fellow "muslims" than by western bombs.

    Hahaha precision weapons.... Oh yeah, they can land on a dinner plate. It's just that dinner plates a mile away will be blinded by bits of their window when the blast radius reaches it and carried on to yet further dinner plates, but that's "collateral damage", innit ;)

    No, that's not the best argument. As it stands, we've killed more of them than they have of us. This is simply them catching up.

    There is no right or wrong, good or evil. We're far from good. We're just "on top". We are stronger. For now. A position I believe we'll live to see taken from us and destroyed.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    gosplan wrote: »
    hmmm wrote: »
    Sure, that's what we could have done with the Nazi's - "leave them alone". The same way we left the Yazidi people alone. I see nothing wrong with allowing an ISIS caliphate to be formed in the Middle East, where they are free to plot how they are going to reform the full Caliphate, taking in Turkey, Spain, Eastern Europe etc., all the while carrying out ever more dangerous terrorist attacks on those who they see as their enemy. Sure. "Leave them alone".

    The problem is they weren't left alone. Colonialism ended around the world except in the Middle East where it just took on a new form.

    Now you have to stop ISIS, I mean they have to be stopped, but what comes next for the West's relationship with the region?
    Saudi Arabia should be threatened with the nuclear bomb if they don't reign ISIS in. They are the country which George Bush should have invaded, not Iraq.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    gosplan wrote: »
    The problem is they weren't left alone. Colonialism ended around the world except in the Middle East where it just took on a new form.

    Now you have to stop ISIS, I mean they have to be stopped, but what comes next for the West's relationship with the region?

    ISIS is being stopped , its grip on Sryia is virtually finished and slowly its grip on parts of Iraq is being pushed back. You are seeing a wounded and dying animal lash out. That's all

    However the issue remains particularly in France where there is , now indisputidly a large cohert of radicalised French Muslims that are prepared to inflict death unpon ordinary innocent people.

    In that regards either the Muslim population must give these people up or internment will be the only answer , potential interment of a significant proportion of the indigenous French Muslim population. Otherwise this type of slaughter will continue and grow as ISIS disintegrates


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭Chris_Bradley


    I agree totally, and yet innocent people do get killed by these "precision" bombs and when isis post their vids online they don't say it was a precision bomb they say a western air strike.

    The majority of people don't want any innocents to die.

    I think you feel that most of the "sheep" in this world will sympathise with the people who died last night and not care about people far afield by a "western air strike".

    If you have then you're the ignorant one imho.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    The majority of people don't want any innocents to die.

    I think you feel that most of the "sheep" in this world will sympathise with the people who died last night and not care about people far afield by a "western air strike".

    If you have then you're the ignorant one imho.

    Debates about moral equivalences are simply ridiculous. The issue is where we are and what to do about it. Innocents die all over the world. That in itself does not justify the death of other innocents.

    The issue now is tactics to prevent French domestic terrorism by usually French Muslim fanatics


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    BoatMad wrote: »
    ISIS is being stopped , its grip on Sryia is virtually finished and slowly its grip on parts of Iraq is being pushed back. You are seeing a wounded and dying animal lash out. That's all

    However the issue remains particularly in France where there is , now indisputidly a large cohert of radicalised French Muslims that are prepared to inflict death unpon ordinary innocent people.

    In that regards either the Muslim population must give these people up or internment will be the only answer , potential interment of a significant proportion of the indigenous French Muslim population. Otherwise this type of slaughter will continue and grow as ISIS disintegrates

    I don't think that would solve things to be honest.

    France has to come to terms with the fact that disenfranchised young men in their country are committing these acts. I've no idea how you stop that but further disenfranchisement isn't a solution.

    Imagine the West could go back now to where radical Islam was just a stupid theosophy thought up by some Saudi pseudo-intellectuals. Before Russian and American phoney wars in Afghanistan created the space for the Taliban, before America and the UK destabilised the region further.

    The threat must be stopped but for goodness sake, can we have some long term thinking?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 JamesMBV


    disgusting to assume it was ISIS. Absolutely disgusting


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,269 ✭✭✭Gamebred


    The french police are just awful,horrible intelligence tough job but their failing horribly can you imagine the attacks the u.k police are dealing with behind the scenes everyday,and the germans both massive targets yet police are actually doing their job.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Gamebred wrote: »
    The french police are just awful,horrible intelligence tough job but their failing horribly can you imagine the attacks the u.k police are dealing with behind the scenes everyday,and the germans both massive targets yet police are actually doing their job.
    They are ****ing dreadful.

    I have no doubt the UK intelligence services have prevented so many similar people living in the UK doing the same and probably even saved lives in the ROI from similar attacks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    I see the usual cheerleaders for Islam are out to tell us all how wonderful it is. Sickening.

    What is sickening? Nobody here is cheering for this horrific event.

    People here are trying to educate those who seem to be completely warped and cannot differentiate between a Muslim and ISIS.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    gosplan wrote: »
    I don't think that would solve things to be honest.

    France has to come to terms with the fact that disenfranchised young men in their country are committing these acts. I've no idea how you stop that but further disenfranchisement isn't a solution.

    Imagine the West could go back now to where radical Islam was just a stupid theosophy thought up by some Saudi pseudo-intellectuals. Before Russian and American phoney wars in Afghanistan created the space for the Taliban, before America and the UK destabilised the region further.

    The threat must be stopped but for goodness sake, can we have some long term thinking?

    Actually we need short term thinking and that was my suggestion. It's all very well postulating a decade or more long process to deal with a situation of the immediate threat to French public safety . Internment is one of the few extra judicial approaches that has immediate applicability and potential


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,897 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Again, in the interest of balance, there are those of us who have pointed out ways that the doctrine of Islam can be criticized on here without receiving a warning/infraction/ban.

    Referring to my earlier posts on this here, here and here, I think it's fair to say that I lean towards Sam Harris' way of thinking when he calls Islam "the mother lode of bad ideas".

    What I don't condone is the unfair tarring of Muslims as people. That, to me, is sickening. I've demonstrated that this forum will permit the open criticizing of the doctrine of Islam, as long as it's done with objectivity and a modicum of intelligence. It IS possible to convince Muslims that this doctrine is not the way, but that can only be achieved through honest dialogue on the points of contention within the teachings of Islam. Becoming a "cheerleader" for Islam is indefensible in its current form, but so is calling for Muslims to be rounded up and deported.

    All we need is a balanced discussion, and a willingness to discuss the emotive issues without the emotion.
    I see the usual cheerleaders for Islam are out to tell us all how wonderful it is. Sickening.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,269 ✭✭✭Gamebred


    They are ****ing dreadful.

    I have no doubt the UK intelligence services have prevented so many similar people living in the UK doing the same and probably even saved lives in the ROI from similar attacks.


    Sure the u.k police **** up domestically like all forces have idiots but they are the most underated force in the world,the amount of radicals in their country and they have shut down scores of terror cells is very impressive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    JamesMBV wrote: »
    disgusting to assume it was ISIS. Absolutely disgusting

    The fact is the individual was clearly a French Muslim in the same vein as many other attacks on French soul

    It matters not that it was directly Isis or a " fellow traveller ". The impetus for these is Isis continued calls for violence against western civilians


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Your post totally lacks the understanding of prayer and the effects of it.
    A study of 80,000 people in the US over a 15 year period found that people who attended church on a weekly or a more than weekly timeframe had far better mental health, indeed among Catholics the suicide rate was zero, which was found to be the best for mental health.

    I don't think a zero suicide rate would necessarily mean good mental health. Suicide is a big sin in Catholicism, so they may have severe depression/issues but the fear of "mortal sin" is preventing them from taking extreme measures, skewing the results.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Saudi Arabia should be threatened with the nuclear bomb if they don't reign ISIS in. They are the country which George Bush should have invaded, not Iraq.

    How the hell does a nuclear bomb help anything? What outcome do you expect exactly?

    All the solutions of war, invasion, bomb, retaliation... it's counter productive and will only compound the issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    They are ****ing dreadful.

    I have no doubt the UK intelligence services have prevented so many similar people living in the UK doing the same and probably even saved lives in the ROI from similar attacks.

    The French police have a problem on their hands orders of magnitude greater then anything the UK police has to deal with. It's a disgrace to denigrate the French police at this time. It's cretinous behaviour


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    How the hell does a nuclear bomb help anything? What outcome do you expect exactly?

    All the solutions of war, invasion, bomb, retaliation... it's counter productive and will only compound the issue.

    It's a rather similar argument to ending the Pacific campaign of Japan. The west will be forced to react one way or the other , domestic opinion will see to that


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 140 ✭✭luftmensch


    They are ****ing dreadful.

    I have no doubt the UK intelligence services have prevented so many similar people living in the UK doing the same and probably even saved lives in the ROI from similar attacks.

    It's a shame that French intelligence won't be recognized for successfully thwarting possibly dozens of attacks, especially during the euro's, but rather be judged as dreadful based entirely on their failure to prevent what happened last night.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,269 ✭✭✭Gamebred


    Pmsl at those defending the police,they let a artic lorry ramp down and open prominade with thousands of peoples on it celebrating Bastille day not a road block in sight gtfo,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,506 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad



    France has to come to terms with the fact that disenfranchised young men in their country are committing these acts. I've no idea how you stop that but further disenfranchisement isn't a solution.

    Since you have no idea, then the solution must fall on others that may have solutions Howvever distasteful .

    Hand wringing is a most useless activity as innocents die


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Saudi Arabia should be threatened with the nuclear bomb if they don't reign ISIS in. They are the country which George Bush should have invaded, not Iraq.

    How the hell does a nuclear bomb help anything? What outcome do you expect exactly?

    All the solutions of war, invasion, bomb, retaliation... it's counter productive and will only compound the issue.
    They fund ISIS and promote them. It is them throwing money to promote Wahhabism in mosques and schools. They are the Berlin of the 1930s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Moo Moo Land


    gosplan wrote: »
    I don't think that would solve things to be honest.

    France has to come to terms with the fact that disenfranchised young men in their country are committing these acts. I've no idea how you stop that but further disenfranchisement isn't a solution.

    Imagine the West could go back now to where radical Islam was just a stupid theosophy thought up by some Saudi pseudo-intellectuals. Before Russian and American phoney wars in Afghanistan created the space for the Taliban, before America and the UK destabilised the region further.

    The threat must be stopped but for goodness sake, can we have some long term thinking?

    Yep, this will require long term thinking and policies and there will be a lot more terrorist attacks in the meantime.

    For example, what progress was made here in a year?

    Feb 2015...
    France must tackle "ghettoisation" in parts of the country in the wake of the Paris killings, said François Hollande today.

    The French president said that the government has a responsibility to eliminate profound inequalities in French society.

    He was speaking, at the first of his twice-yearly press conferences after Manuel Valls, the prime minister, described the situation in France high-immigrant "banlieues", or suburbs, as "a kind of apartheid".


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    BoatMad wrote: »
    They are ****ing dreadful.

    I have no doubt the UK intelligence services have prevented so many similar people living in the UK doing the same and probably even saved lives in the ROI from similar attacks.

    The French police have a problem on their hands orders of magnitude greater then anything the UK police has to deal with. It's a disgrace to denigrate the French police at this time. It's cretinous behaviour
    They are ****e. The last 18 months tells us this.


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