Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1

Shurimgreat · 15-07-2016 10:46AM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

Why is Ireland still a Roman Catholic country if the Reformation was so good?

A "reformation" of Islam...actually no, that's a nonsense idea...the "re-writing" of the martyrdom parts of the Quaran will not happen and will not resolve extremist terrorism.

I am glad people are looking to solutions here but this is too simplistic.

There are 3 main reasons for terrorism as I outlined. We cannot address the 15 minutes of fame one, although we could stop publicising the names of these idiots. All that is happening is they are copying each other.

Preaching against martyrdom should be encouraged, in fact if it doesn't happen, the mosque should be shut down. Too many mosques are preaching hate and racism under the guise of "religion".

Publicity for their cause - this also needs to be addressed. Zero publicity should be given to their cause. No names of who claims responsibility, nothing.

People who commit these acts are thugs. They should not be linked in any way shape or form to Islam.

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 10:46AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Probably not, because the Catholics and Protestants were both well established groups in NI. Islam hasn't gripped Ireland yet. So not is the time to do it. Prevention is better than cure. Refuse to recognise Islam as a religion. CPO the mosques and build parks/social housing etc.

Ah stop...Refuse to recognise Islam as a religion? Really?

Force it underground? ISIS would love you.

Shurimgreat · 15-07-2016 10:49AM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

What???

He said Islam needs a "reformation". Explain how and why this would work.

How did the Catholic reformation work? As the poster said, use your head and make an effort, instead of lazily throwing it back on other people.

I will give you a hint. Some people thought Catholicism was bull****.

So you see how Islam could do with a reformation now??

Effects · 15-07-2016 10:51AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

CPO the mosques and build parks/social housing etc.

Good luck with that. We can't even take the schools away from the Catholic Church.

Peregrine · 15-07-2016 10:52AM

IrishTrajan will be taking a long holiday from After Hours.

evil_seed wrote: »

We can't let the terrorists win. We have to keep on trucking

Mod: Banned

Johnny Carson wrote: »

You have been visited by the Islamic truck of tolerance. Post this in another thread or the peace truck will never visit you.

>______________¶_____ O O
>| ‪#‎ReligionOfPeace‬ ||l “”|””\__,_ __
>|___________________|||__|__|__|] I I
>(@)@)*************(@)(@)**(@);

Mod: Banned

And these two.

Stealthfins · 15-07-2016 10:55AM

Some ideology is like a virus,it keeps multiplying and replicating itself.

Who'd want a single HIV cell in their system ?

Shurimgreat · 15-07-2016 10:56AM

Catholicism has nowhere the power or influence it had in Europe 500 years ago where it held sway over most of Europe. You could easily be burned at the stake for criticising it.

Islam on the otherhand is still as powerful and growing in power and influence. It holds the same sway over the middle east today as Catholicism did 500 years ago in Europe. And its getting worse.

So yes Islam badly needs a reformation. That's a longer term issue though. And it will be very difficult to take root. Anyone who speaks out against Islam in the middle east risks immediate death sadly.

gosplan · 15-07-2016 10:56AM

Insane stuff in here.

Extremist Islam is like Extremist Hinduism or Extremist Buddisim or Extremist Christianity.

The key term being 'Extremist'.

Extremism has very specific conditions it needs to flourish.

Take away the conditions and you take away the extremism.

Take any Islamic country and provide people with peace and prosperity and you'll see secular Islam thrive.

People need to start seeing extreme views as the effect, not the cause.

Zadkiel · 15-07-2016 10:57AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Incitement to hatred? I've not called for them to be attacked, I've not said we should bomb them or shoot them or stab them. I've said we should deport them. That's not incitement to hatred, I'm not hating on anyone. I'm offering a solution to a problem.

A problem that just saw men, women and children crushed into the gravel because some prick decided today was the day.

It's a shame Irish trajan can't reply.
I really wanted to ask if his solution would require further incarnations or if it would be more of a final one.

gosplan · 15-07-2016 10:58AM

Stealthfins wrote: »

Some ideology is like a virus,it keeps multiplying and replicating itself.

Who'd want a single HIV cell in their system ?

No it doesn't.

As yourself. Why could you never succumb to extremist views?

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 10:58AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

How did the Catholic reformation work? As the poster said, use your head and make an effort, instead of lazily throwing it back on other people.

I will give you a hint. Some people thought Catholicism was bull****.

So you see how Islam could do with a reformation now??

It wasn't a Catholic reformation. It was the Prostestant Reformation. It was a new breakaway from the Roman Catholic church in response to corruption and malpractice (e.g. popes selling indulgences).

The counter-reformation was the Roman response to win back hearts and minds through fair means and foul.

There have been enough schisms in Islam already (e.g. Sunni and Shia), we do not need more.

You're really asking for a re-writing of parts of the Quaran in order to suppress martyrdom. That's different to a "reformation".

bodice ripper · 15-07-2016 10:58AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

It's what we call facetious.

You're aware of what integration means, right? If you move to another country and don't learn the language, you're not integrating.

How long were you there for?

Edit. Didn't see he was banned. But I will say, a gap year does not count as integrating.

Cortina_MK_IV · 15-07-2016 10:58AM

Do they even read the Qu'ran?

Muhammad Would Never
Do Harm to a Child.

"Our Prophet (peace be upon him) was a great man who would never order any measure that might do harm to an innocent child."

Photo – Irish Times (Caution Advised.)

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 10:59AM

gosplan wrote: »

Insane stuff in here.

Extremist Islam is like Extremist Hinduism or Extremist Buddisim or Extremist Christianity.

The key term being 'Extremist'.

Extremism has very specific conditions it needs to flourish.

Take away the conditions and you take away the extremism.

Take any Islamic country and provide people with peace and prosperity and you'll see secular Islam thrive.

People need to start seeing extreme views as the effect, not the cause.

Spot on. We are ignoring root cause all the time.

hmmm · 15-07-2016 11:00AM

gosplan wrote: »

Take any Islamic country and provide people with peace and prosperity and you'll see secular Islam thrive.

We don't have time to wait generations for Islamic countries to catch up with the West, they are attacking us now. Half the reason they are so backwards is their religion.

What we need to do in the West is think hard about what our culture is & what our values are, and fight for them. No backsliding or compromises on women's rights, democracy, free speech or secularism. Even in Ireland you can be excluded from a school because of your religion - we must fight that. We can't fight every lone terrorist who picks up a rock, a gun or a vehicle, but we can fight them in our own way by showing that we will not compromise or be cowed as a response - and if someone from a foreign culture comes to the West, they need to assimilate or leave. No half way house, no multiculturalism, no apologies for who we are. It doesn't matter whether you are black or white, born in Europe or born in outer Mongolia, if you come to live here you live by our values.

Stealthfins · 15-07-2016 11:03AM

I know Shia and Sufi are more tolerant of western ways and veer more towards integration.

There's a big Jewish and Christian population in Iran,but the powers that be don't want us to know.....

gosplan · 15-07-2016 11:05AM

hmmm wrote: »

We don't have time to wait generations for Islamic countries to catch up with the West, they are attacking us now. Half the reason they are so backwards is their religion.

What we need to do in the West is think hard about what our culture is & what our values are, and fight for them. No backsliding or compromises on women's rights, democracy, free speech or secularism. Even in Ireland you can be excluded from a school because of your religion - we must fight that. We can't fight every lone terrorist who picks up a rock, a gun or a vehicle, but we can fight them in our own way by showing that we will not compromise or be cowed as a response - and if someone from a foreign culture comes to the West, they need to assimilate or leave. No half way house, no multiculturalism, no apologies for who we are. It doesn't matter whether you are black or white, born in Europe or born in outer Mongolia, if you come to live here you live by our values.

Agree except for the first part.

The reason their religion is so backwards is because of the conditions.

Really I'm not wrong on this. Believe me.

Religion is 100% a reflection of the conditions of a society.

Zadkiel · 15-07-2016 11:07AM

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Incitement to hatred? I've not called for them to be attacked, I've not said we should bomb them or shoot them or stab them. I've said we should deport them. That's not incitement to hatred, I'm not hating on anyone. I'm offering a solution to a problem.

A problem that just saw men, women and children crushed into the gravel because some prick decided today was the day.

It's a shame Irish trajan can't reply.
I really wanted to ask if his solution would require further incarnations or if it would be more of a final one.

JamesMBV · 15-07-2016 11:08AM

True enough for what has been said.

Really don't feel it's necessary for such hate. Unless we unite and try to find a solution, more people will get hurt. Calling out all Muslim is stupid, that's not the answer.

Knowing what we know now, we really need our leaders to show exactly that, leadership.

Looking towards the future, we need to ensure our children's safety. Of course, this isn't going to be easy.
Leaving it to unfold the way it is is dangerous

Shurimgreat · 15-07-2016 11:10AM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

It wasn't a Catholic reformation. It was the Prostestant Reformation. It was a new breakaway from the Roman Catholic church in response to corruption and malpractice (e.g. popes selling indulgences).

The counter-reformation was the Roman response to win back hearts and minds through fair means and foul.

There have been enough schisms in Islam already (e.g. Sunni and Shia), we do not need more.

You're really asking for a re-writing of parts of the Quaran in order to suppress martyrdom. That's different to a "reformation".

First off, I didn't originally use the term Reformation on here, I was merely responding to it.

Islamic countries actually need more of an Enlightenment, you know where people start to think logically and think in terms of secularism. Separation of church and state, relegation of religion to the fringes where it belongs, serious questioning of aspects of the bible or Quran in this case, questioning of what is historically accurate and what is made up bullsh*t. We saw a lot of that in Europe from the likes of Voltaire and other philosophers up to Nietzsche and its ongoing today. We haven't really seen it in the middle east at all. Very few brave enough to question Islam there. I wonder why?

Islam is far far far too dominant in the lives of people in the middle east to the point most don't even question it.

This is not a good thing. We need these people to start thinking for themselves and to wake up. They need an Enlightenment in the middle east.

Autonomous Cowherd · 15-07-2016 11:11AM

gosplan wrote: »

Agree except for the first part.

The reason their religion is so backwards is because of the conditions.

Really I'm not wrong on this. Believe me.

Religion is 100% a reflection of the conditions of a society.

The only thing here is that there are now 'home grown' terrorists such as this attacker - he lived in France and would i presume have benefited from living in western conditions. So it seems to be more than social conditions, there genuinely seems to be a fundamentalist religious outlook at work here (among small radicalised minority) of some end of times, etc. The brainwashed initiates of a Wahhabi eschatology that wants to found a caliphate and kills anyone in their way, including and especially perhaps (given the stats of who they usually kill) ordinary peaceful Muslims.

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 11:11AM

gosplan wrote: »

Agree except for the first part.

The reason their religion is so backwards is because of the conditions.

Really I'm not wrong on this. Believe me.

Religion is 100% a reflection of the conditions of a society.

Interesting but isn't the Quran full of sections praising martyrdom with promises of afterlife rewards for killing infidels (I am not clear if it's just in battle or any innocent infidels).

How do the conditions of society impact on the interpretation and reaction to those martyrdom sections?

Is it that these sections only become relevant in times of Jihad?

tomofson · 15-07-2016 11:12AM

Cortina_MK_IV wrote: »

Do they even read the Qu'ran?

Photo – Irish Times (Caution Advised.)

People dont want to see or hear truths, they want you to confirm their hate by telling them what they want to hear. But deep down in their hearts know is not the truth...

gosplan · 15-07-2016 11:13AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

First off, I didn't originally use the term Reformation on here, I was merely responding to it.

Islamic countries actually need more of an enlightenment, you know where people start to think logically and think in terms of secularism. Separation of church and state, relegation of religion to the fringes where it belongs, serious questioning of aspects of the bible or Quran in this case, questioning of what is historically accurate and what is made up bullsh*t. We saw a lot of that in Europe from the likes of Voltaire and other philosophers up to Nietzsche and its ongoing today. We haven't really seen it in the middle east at all. Very few brave enough to question Islam there. I wonder why?

Islam is far far far too dominant in the lives of people in the middle east to the point most don't even question it.

This is not a good thing. We need these people to start thinking for themselves and to wake up.

They don't though.

I think there are more secular Islamic countries than contrives where it's a state religion.

Also(and I may be incorrect on this) Iraq and Iran were totally secular till they took control of their own oil. Then America and Russia got involved.

lawlolawl · 15-07-2016 11:15AM

Imagine if in the early 1900's people had talked about only going after the extremist adherents of Nazism.

The mere fact that martyrdom and jihad are major parts of Islam is enough for the Western world to be justified in being wary of it.

timmyntc · 15-07-2016 11:18AM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

First off, I didn't originally use the term Reformation on here, I was merely responding to it.

Islamic countries actually need more of an Enlightenment, you know where people start to think logically and think in terms of secularism. Separation of church and state, relegation of religion to the fringes where it belongs, serious questioning of aspects of the bible or Quran in this case, questioning of what is historically accurate and what is made up bullsh*t. We saw a lot of that in Europe from the likes of Voltaire and other philosophers up to Nietzsche and its ongoing today. We haven't really seen it in the middle east at all. Very few brave enough to question Islam there. I wonder why?

Islam is far far far too dominant in the lives of people in the middle east to the point most don't even question it.

This is not a good thing. We need these people to start thinking for themselves and to wake up. They need an Enlightenment in the middle east.

The biggest proponents of Islam are Saudi Arabia, they bankroll terrorists, they bankroll the construction of mosques, they basically control an entire sect of Islam, the Sunnis/Wahhabis/Salafists. So don't expect much of an enlightenment when the Saudis fund an entire religion essentially.

Iran on the otherhand controls the Shias more or less, who happen to be a lot less terrorist-y. Yet the US (& Israel) continue to declare Iran the dangerous enemy.

Mind boggling stuff.

Stealthfins · 15-07-2016 11:20AM

gosplan wrote:

As yourself. Why could you never succumb to extremist views?

If I was in a position of having to defend myself,kid, or any other members of the population from a terrorist, I'd compromise ðŸ˜

My worst experience ever was in a chipper and these Brummies came in to order food.

They asked for halal,the guys behind the counter had halal.

They threw it into the oil it was chicken I think,one of the guys in traditional wear lost the head and lambasted the cook as to why he was cooking halal in with what previously cooked a battered sausage.

It got very heated and I could sense the tension,the guy was threatened and everything.

Fckn knobs from Birmingham coming over here at that ****.

I think the guards had to intervene.

This happened in a small town in the west of Ireland.

Shurimgreat · 15-07-2016 11:20AM

gosplan wrote: »

They don't though.

I think there are more secular Islamic countries than contrives where it's a state religion.

Also(and I may be incorrect on this) Iraq and Iran were totally secular till they took control of their own oil. Then America and Russia got involved.

Terrorism has grown in line with the Islamisation of the middle east in the last 40 years. There is a direct correlation there.

In colonial times we were able to keep a lid on it. Not now though.

So yes badly in need of some secularism in the middle east and less reasons for people to die and murder for a cause.

And badly in need of an enlightenment.

But anyways its a bit late for the victims in Paris and Nice now.

As I said, there's a long queue of these nutjobs lining up to commit atrocities like this and France seems to be bearing the brunt of it which is a shame.

hmmm · 15-07-2016 11:20AM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Imagine if in the early 1900's people had talked about only going after the extremist adherents of Nazism.

No-one went after Naziism because the threat wasn't recognised until it was too late - it also was a massive political movement.

Extremist Islam is not a massive political movement, but it gets tacit support from a large part of Muslim society. As a start, they need to get away from the idea that certain so-called crimes (homosexuality, adultery, belonging to a different religion) is punishable by death. I don't want to sound like the rabid, foaming at the mouth types, but it is a bit of a death cult when you think about it.

Snickers Man · 15-07-2016 11:20AM

philstar wrote: »

why has France become a target for Islamic extremists??

Some things to Google:

French Foreign Legion
Beau Geste
Algerian War
OAS
French mandates over Syria and Lebanon
Paris massacre 1961

None of which justifies any of this terrorist lunacy of course. But it may help you with your surprise.

Of course there are some frothing neocons who think it's all the fault of PC SJWs and multiculturalism. Make up your own mind.

Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1