Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

Teebor15 · 11-07-2016 09:02AM

The "System" has got us from Div 2 to League Champions (Almost back to back..but for the puck of a ball) 2 munster finals, being regarding as genuine All-Ireland contenders and put the buzz back in Waterford hurling. I know we are blessed with a good crop of players as well and that its not all down to the system. But the point is..this is the first time under the new management that we have shipped a heavy beating.

Yesterdays white wash was not just down to the the way the players lined out..to me more of the problem was the team just didn't look up for it apart from Barron who was his usual high energy self from the start..the rest were slow, sluggish, dis-interested and once the second goal went in they had had enough.

As Derek as always said the way this Waterford team plays is down to honesty of effort and sheer hard work, "If the opposition work hard, we work harder". There was none of that yesterday..second to every ball..not coming out of rucks with the ball like they normally do..physically pushed around by a hungrier Tipp team. Yesterday was not a day for short passing or long distance shooting so hopefully they will learn from that mistake.

They don't need to overhaul everything going forward. Keep the sweeper but play 5 forwards in the correct half for 90% of the game and play more direct ball. Match that with the high work rate we had previously and I genuinely think we will still have a say in this years Championship.

carq · 11-07-2016 09:30AM

really couldn't believe the second half yesterday.
Players looked sluggish - even in the first the tipp backs were able to break out at ease.

Maurice wasnt at the races, mahoney shaky on frees ( Dropping one short from 40 yards??)
All the forwards could not shoot. 10 wides in first half tells its own story

Clear problem with 'the system' is that when there is a wind you are allowing the opposition the freedom to, under no pressure, launch high ball on your full back line repeatedly.

As an aside, the Ref had a poor game i thought - Missing a dirty pull on gleeson in first half, Penalty was very dubious, Gives waterford advantage for a foul but does not call it back, same happens to tipp he calls it back for a free. Soft frees for tipp too in first half which kept them in it against the wind.

Johngoose · 11-07-2016 09:40AM

I'm not from Tipp or Waterford,but I was embarrassed for Waterford after having some great games against Clare in both the league and championship.It looks like their championship run is as good as over.

shamrockvilla · 11-07-2016 09:46AM

carq wrote: »

really couldn't believe the second half yesterday.
Players looked sluggish - even in the first the tipp backs were able to break out at ease.

Maurice wasnt at the races, mahoney shaky on frees ( Dropping one short from 40 yards??)
All the forwards could not shoot. 10 wides in first half tells its own story

Clear problem with 'the system' is that when there is a wind you are allowing the opposition the freedom to, under no pressure, launch high ball on your full back line repeatedly.

As an aside, the Ref had a poor game i thought - Missing a dirty pull on gleeson in first half, Penalty was very dubious, Gives waterford advantage for a foul but does not call it back, same happens to tipp he calls it back for a free. Soft frees for tipp too in first half which kept them in it against the wind.

Can't blame the ref for that yesterday. Gleeson should have got the line for striking a Tipperary player in the head with the butt of the hurley. Waterford were 3-11 to 10 points down when the referee awarded the penalty,correctly in my opinion . Waterford only scored 4 points from play.
Derek McGrath was being hailed as the new messiah for re-inventing hurling and Waterford were believing their own hype.Time to take a reality check.

hurler on de ditch · 11-07-2016 09:47AM

Teebor15 wrote: »

The "System" has got us from Div 2 to League Champions (Almost back to back..but for the puck of a ball) 2 munster finals, being regarding as genuine All-Ireland contenders and put the buzz back in Waterford hurling. I know we are blessed with a good crop of players as well and that its not all down to the system. But the point is..this is the first time under the new management that we have shipped a heavy beating.

Yesterdays white wash was not just down to the the way the players lined out..to me more of the problem was the team just didn't look up for it apart from Barron who was his usual high energy self from the start..the rest were slow, sluggish, dis-interested and once the second goal went in they had had enough.

As Derek as always said the way this Waterford team plays is down to honesty of effort and sheer hard work, "If the opposition work hard, we work harder". There was none of that yesterday..second to every ball..not coming out of rucks with the ball like they normally do..physically pushed around by a hungrier Tipp team. Yesterday was not a day for short passing or long distance shooting so hopefully they will learn from that mistake.

They don't need to overhaul everything going forward. Keep the sweeper but play 5 forwards in the correct half for 90% of the game and play more direct ball. Match that with the high work rate we had previously and I genuinely think we will still have a say in this years Championship.

delusional

HillFarmer · 11-07-2016 09:49AM

Watched the game, to be fair hunger was missing, plain and simple.
Our backs were flat footed and gave guys too much time and space.

The first goal it was a definite mistake by O'Keefe, I'm sure he'll be disappointed. He also stayed on his line from Mgraths goal he got from his boot. He should have came out and made the goal small or cleaned him.

Don't forget Tip stuck Galway for 4 goals in lasts years semi, they have the guys to bury you.

If any of our team is reading this, heads up lads, you don't become a bad team over night. Regroup and lets go again.

Lastly, Austin Gleeson needs to be careful, he was a very lucky man not to get straight red.

We've all been through this before, this team WILL COME GOOD!

I'd like to see us stick some of our better hurlers in the half forward line, maybe stick Gleeson centre forward and keep him there.

Up the deise!

Professey Chin · 11-07-2016 09:57AM

I'd love to know this thinking of putting Gleeson in the full forward line. He doesn't play there and they do it constantly and waste about 20 minutes before bringing him out the field. It's genuinely baffling.
Put him wing forward and let him wander and drag his marker everywhere. It's not rocket science

Ropaire · 11-07-2016 10:09AM

Professey Chin wrote: »

I'd love to know this thinking of putting Gleeson in the full forward line. He doesn't play there and they do it constantly and waste about 20 minutes before bringing him out the field. It's genuinely baffling.
Put him wing forward and let him wander and drag his marker everywhere. It's not rocket science

Shame they didnt leave him there for the first half and bomb ball in on him. It's not rocket science to use a strong wind to bypass a half backli e and sweeper, which is what Tipp did second half.

tomwaterford · 11-07-2016 10:20AM

The game was over five mins into the second half with tipps second goal (ball was fouled going through-no difference to result)

But there's something seriously wrong if at 30 mins to go we couldn't even attempt to haul in a 7 point deficit??

cornerboy · 11-07-2016 10:37AM

Was anyone watching the warm up........I didn't take my seat until about 3.50. Tomas Mulcahy commented on radio that Waterford took to the field at 3.25 in the rain............is it true that we were on the field for 35 minutes prior to throw in?

con89 · 11-07-2016 10:49AM

The system doesn't seem to work too well when we go behind.
It's grand if we take an early lead, on a good day, we should be able to hold onto the lead with the system and the players we have.

The problem is if we go behind. There is no plan B. Having two full forwards, and nobody anywhere within 20 yards of the opposition goal isn't going to overhaul a deficit against any half-decent team.
If we go behind against wexford, we need to go 15 on 15. Throw Maurice in around the square, and push the forward lines in deeper. We didn't have a single goal chance yesterday in all honesty.

Support yesterday was poor. Quiet atmosphere, and easily less than 15,000 from both counties. A bit disappointing considering most people thought we'd a genuine chance going into the game.

Ropaire · 11-07-2016 10:57AM

I don't think we go looki.g for goal chances. Bennett was unlucky he couldn't rise fhe ball when through, but other than that we had numbers and options inside 20 meters from goals twice in the first half but we tcked on the point. There's no ruthlessness about us at all when we get i to these positions, another factor of ghe system is we take any score we can get instead of going for green flags.

blueflame · 11-07-2016 11:02AM

I look back on my post now of Saturday night last and I regret posting the alcohol infused optimism I had for Sunday - should have kept that one to myself.

There were many things went wrong yesterday for this team,, not making use of the wind in the first half and coughing up a very soft goal. Shooting too many wide's as we are prone to, especially straight forward ones. Some very rash strokes that could have seen us reduced to 13 before half time even arrived, all which point to a general lack of discipline. These were the really disappointing aspects.

Looking at Tipp's onslaught, have=to say given the conditions yesterday especially, we are an accident waiting to happen. Tipp went route one into a very physical full forward line, by passing our famed sweeper system and had runners arriving at pace to mop up and breaking ball or offloads creating chances at will. Herein lies the biggest crack in our fames system. We withdraw so much that there is no pressure on the opposing backs, this allows them first to drive forward and take their time to pinpoint deliveries into the areas they want to. Similarly because we are so withdrawn, any famed counter attack must be worked up the filed, this allows opposition midfielders to gamble and make these runs without fear of being exposed. The conditions yesterday contrived to make every ball into our backline a nightmare and the constant Tipperary runs paid dividends.

IN the cold light of day we need to take stock and not panic abandoning the system but we have to see it for what it is and all its flaws. The problem with playing to a rigid system is when the system breaks down individuals do not know what to do, they become rigid and freeze, and we are spending way too much time talking and working on systems . Kilkenny play to a system where they pull players back and they work really hard but every individual is expect to win their own ball and put their head on the block.

For a start we have to play with a minimum of 5 forwards with two in the full forward line at all times. Personally I would rather see our half back line just sit a bit deeper, cutting down the space in front of the full back line drop midfield a bit and get the half forward to funnel back when needed, and make our inside forwards keep a genuine threat and keep their defence pinned back. Our current system allows way to much freedom for wave after wave of attack and when you get days like yesterday the damn will be breached.

I did feel our touch was terrible yesterday, I felt we were very flat and were just not prepared for the ferocity of the challenge, this happens with teams in development and young teams. We need to look at yesterdays games and identify the glaring mistakes, and play more on the percentage, the more time you keep the ball in the opposition half the harder it is for them to score.

I expect a backlash on Wednesday night from the U21s, especially those on the periphery of the senior team and I expect a serious performance against wexfpord in two weeks time

Whiplash85 · 11-07-2016 11:24AM

As a Tipp man, hard luck to Waterford yesterday. I dont think the scoreline is an accurate reflection on the game. Sometimes when a team gets a run on you, you are powerless to do anything about it.Tipp were in the mood yesterday and it was a brilliant display of speed, precision and power.Michael Ryan has instilled steel and backbone into this outfit as well which has been lacking when faced with Kilkenny in last couple of years.

With regards to Waterford I dont think this system is viable going forward now. If they played the traditional way they would have asked Tipp much harder questions. Tipp had 3 ways of opening this up and transitioned to all 3 at various junctures of the game.

First was short puck outs to speedster Cathal Barrett who created overlaps down Waterfords left side of defence (Tipp had some joy in this dept).
Second was angled balls in to Niall O Meara and John McGrath taking out Tadhg de Burca (won some frees in first half and yielded a goal)
Third and by Far most effective tactic was swarming sweeper and playing narrow with runners from midfield.

Waterford can still have a big say in this championship but will need to be more attack minded. They never looked like scoring a goal yesterday and only scored one during league group stages. There seems to be no plan B or contingency plan for going behind. Still playing a sweeper when losing beggars belief. It seems to be something which is done at underage underage as well.Hell I even saw a post on this forum of the potential U21 team and in brackets after Conor Gleeson who was picked at corner forward was sweeper. Tom Devine needs to start and Brick dropped. He has been a great servant but does not have the legs for it anymore. Stop moving Austin Gleeson around to 3 or 4 different positions. Let him master one. Play him and Maurice Shanahan in half forward line and Try and use them as ball winners. Move Kevin Moran back to centre back and Darragh Fives to Full back. Then you have a proper spine to the team.

McGrath needs to leave them play. They are young lads and they need to go back to playing off the cuff like the team of the mid noughties. Get back to doing a few fist pumps and kissing crests, not within the parameters of a system.

Final 2 thoughts.

I was struck by how much class the Waterford players had in staying out on the pitch signing autographs and taking pictures with young fans despite being crestfallen.

The poster who said that these players get scholarships and jobs out of their intercounty exploits and packed it in is an idiot and needs a dose of cop on. No one goes out to play bad and the time spent training, in A&E, putting life on hold and missing out on lifes other opportunities is in no way commensurate for what they get out of it.

Whiplash85 · 11-07-2016 11:35AM

carq wrote: »

really couldn't believe the second half yesterday.
Players looked sluggish - even in the first the tipp backs were able to break out at ease.

Maurice wasnt at the races, mahoney shaky on frees ( Dropping one short from 40 yards??)
All the forwards could not shoot. 10 wides in first half tells its own story

Clear problem with 'the system' is that when there is a wind you are allowing the opposition the freedom to, under no pressure, launch high ball on your full back line repeatedly.

As an aside, the Ref had a poor game i thought - Missing a dirty pull on gleeson in first half, Penalty was very dubious, Gives waterford advantage for a foul but does not call it back, same happens to tipp he calls it back for a free. Soft frees for tipp too in first half which kept them in it against the wind.

Maybe look at the excerpt Eddie Brennan did on the Sunday game. Austin Gleeson could have been sent off 2 or 3 times and was taken off by Derek McGrath as a pre emptive move. Also the Stephen O Keeffe tried to seriously hurt John McGrath. Look at thefree count as well while you are at it. Complaining about a referree after losing by 21 points is the least of your worries.

JesusRef · 11-07-2016 11:37AM

Whiplash85 wrote: »

As a Tipp man, hard luck to Waterford yesterday. I dont think the scoreline is an accurate reflection on the game. Sometimes when a team gets a run on you, you are powerless to do anything about it.Tipp were in the mood yesterday and it was a brilliant display of speed, precision and power.Michael Ryan has instilled steel and backbone into this outfit as well which has been lacking when faced with Kilkenny in last couple of years.

With regards to Waterford I dont think this system is viable going forward now. If they played the traditional way they would have asked Tipp much harder questions. Tipp had 3 ways of opening this up and transitioned to all 3 at various junctures of the game.

First was short puck outs to speedster Cathal Barrett who created overlaps down Waterfords left side of defence (Tipp had some joy in this dept).
Second was angled balls in to Niall O Meara and John McGrath taking out Tadhg de Burca (won some frees in first half and yielded a goal)
Third and by Far most effective tactic was swarming sweeper and playing narrow with runners from midfield.

Waterford can still have a big say in this championship but will need to be more attack minded. They never looked like scoring a goal yesterday and only scored one during league group stages. There seems to be no plan B or contingency plan for going behind. Still playing a sweeper when losing beggars belief. It seems to be something which is done at underage underage as well.Hell I even saw a post on this forum of the potential U21 team and in brackets after Conor Gleeson who was picked at corner forward was sweeper. Tom Devine needs to start and Brick dropped. He has been a great servant but does not have the legs for it anymore. Stop moving Austin Gleeson around to 3 or 4 different positions. Let him master one. Play him and Maurice Shanahan in half forward line and Try and use them as ball winners. Move Kevin Moran back to centre back and Darragh Fives to Full back. Then you have a proper spine to the team.

McGrath needs to leave them play. They are young lads and they need to go back to playing off the cuff like the team of the mid noughties. Get back to doing a few fist pumps and kissing crests, not within the parameters of a system.

Final 2 thoughts.

I was struck by how much class the Waterford players had in staying out on the pitch signing autographs and taking pictures with young fans despite being crestfallen.

The poster who said that these players get scholarships and jobs out of their intercounty exploits and packed it in is an idiot and needs a dose of cop on. No one goes out to play bad and the time spent training, in A&E, putting life on hold and missing out on lifes other opportunities is in no way commensurate for what they get out of it.

Nice post - congrats on your win, some fantastic hurlers, without Tipp - Kilkenny would be having it all their own way since God knows when - Tipp deserve great credit for that.

I fear we have no choice but persist with the sweeper - we don't have enough quality backs and Derek knows it - not enough pace like the cathar barretts and mickey cahills of this world.

We are better then yesterday - but it was a devastating loss, hopefully it will not prove the end of the road.

MfMan · 11-07-2016 11:59AM

JesusRef wrote: »

Nice post - congrats on your win, some fantastic hurlers, without Tipp - Kilkenny would be having it all their own way since God knows when - Tipp deserve great credit for that.

I fear we have no choice but persist with the sweeper - we don't have enough quality backs and Derek knows it - not enough pace like the cathar barretts and mickey cahills of this world.

We are better then yesterday - but it was a devastating loss, hopefully it will not prove the end of the road.

Umm.. they've only beaten them once under Cody. Even poor much-maligned unloved, disregarded Galway's record is better than that.

JesusRef · 11-07-2016 12:17PM

MfMan wrote: »

Umm.. they've only beaten them once under Cody. Even poor much-maligned unloved, disregarded Galway's record is better than that.

Ya they only beat them once but put KK to the pin of the collar across a few thrilling AI finals, where would the game of hurling be otherwise without those games? Not that it has been in a great place but it would have been in a very sorry state

Whiplash85 · 11-07-2016 12:29PM

MfMan wrote: »

Umm.. they've only beaten them once under Cody. Even poor much-maligned unloved, disregarded Galway's record is better than that.

This Tipp team could and should have another All Ireland or 2. Absolutely robbed by Kirwan in 09 and only for ridiculous penalty rule changed mid year would have won in '14. A certain apathy has built up in the game reflected in the meagre attendances in Thurles on Saturday and Limerick yesterday. 15,000 people at €25 a ticket to see 3 games was shocking. Much of this is owing to Kilkennys dominance on the game. (16 out of 19 Leinsters, 8 out of 10 AI's). Hurling needs new challengers and new winners. Thats why I was delighted to see Wexford winning on Saturday because they bring great colour and fervour to the game and it might shock Cork into doing something (anything).
At the moment I think we are the only team in the country that can put it up to Kilkenny for 70 minutes and I think this year we will beat them.

MfMan · 11-07-2016 12:39PM

Whiplash85 wrote: »

This Tipp team could and should have another All Ireland or 2. Absolutely robbed by Kirwan in 09 and only for ridiculous penalty rule changed mid year would have won in '14. A certain apathy has built up in the game reflected in the meagre attendances in Thurles on Saturday and Limerick yesterday. 15,000 people at €25 a ticket to see 3 games was shocking. Much of this is owing to Kilkennys dominance on the game. (16 out of 19 Leinsters, 8 out of 10 AI's). Hurling needs new challengers and new winners. Thats why I was delighted to see Wexford winning on Saturday because they bring great colour and fervour to the game and it might shock Cork into doing something (anything).
At the moment I think we are the only team in the country that can put it up to Kilkenny for 70 minutes and I think this year we will beat them.

Welcome to Galway-land! :-)

As for the Deise, 2011 showed that they can turn around a very bad result immediately, but the players have to stand up for it now and the management has to trust them a bit more to express themselves properly.

JeffKenna · 11-07-2016 12:42PM

Whiplash85 wrote: »

At the moment I think we are the only team in the country that can put it up to Kilkenny for 70 minutes and I think this year we will beat them.

Well Whiplash, for a man on Friday who thought Waterford were going to win you've certainly changed your tune. I think you only came on here to try and build Waterford up in the hope they would succumb to the pressure and collapse.

Whiplash85 · 11-07-2016 12:53PM

JeffKenna wrote: »

Well Whiplash, for a man on Friday who thought Waterford were going to win you've certainly changed your tune. I think you only came on here to try and build Waterford up in the hope they would succumb to the pressure and collapse.

Hard to take that post seriously. I have been fairly magnaminous in victory and all truth be told if we dont go on and win an AI the year will have been a failure. You could see from Brendan Mahers body language yesterday post victory that this game was not season defining. Most pundits predicted Waterford to win. I did not think Callinan would start and certainly did not think a championship debutant would score 3-2. I also thought waterford would be hungrier (they weren't), they'd work harder as opposed to Tipps maybe superior stickwork (they didn't) and I also thought Waterfords strength and conditioning might be superior (it wasn't). You can only go on what you have seen in the past and all known form. As for building Waterford up and hoping they'd succumb to the pressure. Give me a break.

Bonniedog · 11-07-2016 01:10PM

Only positive from weekend is that trying to apply "blanket defence" football tactics to hurling has been totally discredited.

Limerick and Waterford management should be sent to hurling equivalent of the Gulag for crimes against the game.

Clonmel1000 · 11-07-2016 01:25PM

carq wrote: »

really couldn't believe the second half yesterday.
Players looked sluggish - even in the first the tipp backs were able to break out at ease.

Maurice wasnt at the races, mahoney shaky on frees ( Dropping one short from 40 yards??)
All the forwards could not shoot. 10 wides in first half tells its own story

Clear problem with 'the system' is that when there is a wind you are allowing the opposition the freedom to, under no pressure, launch high ball on your full back line repeatedly.

As an aside, the Ref had a poor game i thought - Missing a dirty pull on gleeson in first half, Penalty was very dubious, Gives waterford advantage for a foul but does not call it back, same happens to tipp he calls it back for a free. Soft frees for tipp too in first half which kept them in it against the wind.

Austin Gleeson should have got a straight red there were dubious frees on both sides there always will be. There were 21 points in it blaming the ref is as bad as blaming the bus journey down like someone else alluded too. Maybe Waterford just aren't as good as some of ye think?

Limestone Cowboy · 11-07-2016 01:30PM

carq wrote: »

really couldn't believe the second half yesterday.
Players looked sluggish - even in the first the tipp backs were able to break out at ease.

Maurice wasnt at the races, mahoney shaky on frees ( Dropping one short from 40 yards??)
All the forwards could not shoot. 10 wides in first half tells its own story

Clear problem with 'the system' is that when there is a wind you are allowing the opposition the freedom to, under no pressure, launch high ball on your full back line repeatedly.

As an aside, the Ref had a poor game i thought - Missing a dirty pull on gleeson in first half, Penalty was very dubious, Gives waterford advantage for a foul but does not call it back, same happens to tipp he calls it back for a free. Soft frees for tipp too in first half which kept them in it against the wind.

Ah here, Gleeson could have been sent off twice. The ref didn't have a good game for Tipp either and he could have given John McGrath another penalty in the first half.

PTH2009 · 11-07-2016 01:35PM

The weather prob played a factor yesterday too (very small one in the big scheme of things). Tipperary have played 2 games already in the championship in similar conditions

The venue, pitch seemed smaller than Thurles (again small factor)

Some of the players just didn't turn up, Tipperary found us out and we threw in the towel

Said it already McGraths post match interview suggests were ****ed now

carq · 11-07-2016 01:46PM

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

Austin Gleeson should have got a straight red there were dubious frees on both sides there always will be. There were 21 points in it blaming the ref is as bad as blaming the bus journey down like someone else alluded too. Maybe Waterford just aren't as good as some of ye think?

my point on the ref was labelled as an aside you dope.
Where have i blamed the ref for the defeat?

Nice you ignored all the other points i made

Clonmel1000 · 11-07-2016 02:20PM

carq wrote: »

my point on the ref was labelled as an aside you dope.
Where have i blamed the ref for the defeat?

Nice you ignored all the other points i made

Name calling nice....I don't particularly have an issue with he rest of your post but the excuses here so far are the weather the bus the pitch the ref......

O Riain · 11-07-2016 02:38PM

Clonmel1000 wrote: »

carq wrote: »

my point on the ref was labelled as an aside you dope.
Where have i blamed the ref for the defeat?

Nice you ignored all the other points i made

Name calling nice....I don't particularly have an issue with he rest of your post but the excuses here so far are the weather the bus the pitch the ref......

I don't think anyone is blaming any of those things. People are simply mentioning them as factors, trying to make sense of the defeat which is only natural considering we got absolutely destroyed by the extremely good Tipp side.

Dick phelan · 11-07-2016 05:08PM

Having calmed down somewhat about our shambolic performance i'd make a few observations, Firstly i don't really blame the management, that's the exact same group of lads that played so well against Clare and the same system too, The players all of them had a shocker and they themselves need to look in the mirror as to why, Secondly imo he needs to keep Aussie at the back, very noticeable how easily Tipp were getting through the middle Gleeson at 6 would possibly stop a lot of those runs before they get at the full backline. While everyone had a shocker i think the time has come to drop Brick Walsh he's been an unreal player for us over the years but he isn't a forward, you can't have a forward that doesn't score think it's time a change was made there. Lastly our shooting needs to improve, yesterday wasn't a one off in that regard, in loads of games even those we've won we waste an awful lot of chances that needs to improve because me must have had more wides then scores yesterday. Depressing stuff we are still a top 5 team on the level of Clare and Galway imo but we are still miles behind KK and Tipp.

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1