11 police shot, 4 officers dead after coordinated sniper fire at Dallas protest rally

beans · 08-07-2016 03:40PM

Gatling wrote: »

A bomb disposal robot fitted with a pistol

"The suspect, who has not been named, was cornered for several hours by officers and was killed by an explosive device deployed by a police robot after extensive negotiations failed, said Dallas police chief David Brown."

From guardian.co.uk

Foxtrol · 08-07-2016 03:41PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Very shocked at the news today. I imagine all the police personnel who patrol protest marches to come will be in a state of fear, wondering are there snipers on the roof tops. Bad scene.

Sobering link - http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

My assessment -
US population 320 million - about 1200 people killed by police in 2015
UK population 64 million - about 3 people killed by police in 2015

Population ratios about 5:1, death by police ratio about 400:1

The US police would probably want to consider killing much fewer of their citizens.

You are aware you’re comparing a police force dealing with a highly armed population and one that is unarmed?

It’s like comparing the risk of a zoo keeper of a lion enclosure to that of a miniature dog groomer.

FA Hayek · 08-07-2016 03:41PM

Christy42 wrote: »

I have already mentioned about proportions. Over militarised police has a greater effect on black communities.

Because most crime happens in black communities. Therefore more confrontations happen there. People seem to be latching onto the its all white peoples fault.

As per proportions, White people are almost three times as likely to be shot and killed then an Asian. #whitelivesmater #whydoasianshateus #asiansupremcy

Christy42 wrote: »

I disagree with a lot of BLM's methods but I see why such a group would exist. Racial rhetoric certainly encourages this type of event and they have to take some of the blame similar to say Trump or some (not all) of the Brexiter's rhetoric.

They exist in the same vacuum as the likes of the KKK. Both groups are racial extremes and should be called out as such. The media has given the BLM too much friendly 'ah aren't they cute' attention. I hope this is a wake up call.

As to Brexit, what in gods name has that got to do with anything?

Manic Moran · 08-07-2016 03:42PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Gatling wrote: »

They'll eventually get predator drones

For police use, something much smaller and more agile would seem more appropriate. The police is not going to be firing missiles on US cities from miles away.

Local police here in CA have started using drones to tail suspects, in a manner similar to the use of helicopters prior to that. The advantage is that they are small and quiet so the guy doesn't realize he's being tailed, makes catching them much simpler.

Bob24 · 08-07-2016 03:43PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Local police here in CA have started using drones to tail suspects, in a manner similar to the use of helicopters prior to that. The advantage is that they are small and quiet so the guy doesn't realize he's being tailed, makes catching them much simpler.

Yes exactly what I had in mind. Something more professional, larger and with longer battery life than your off the shelf photographic drone ... but not quite a military drone!

Christy42 · 08-07-2016 03:45PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Because most crime happens in black communities. Therefore more confrontations happen there. People seem to be latching onto the its all white peoples fault.

As per proportions, White people are almost three times as likely to be shot and killed then an Asian. #whitelivesmater #whydoasianshateus #asiansupremcy

They exist in the same vacuum as the likes of the KKK. Both groups are racial extremes and should be called out as such. The media has given the BLM too much friendly 'ah aren't they cute' attention. I hope this is a wake up call.

As to Brexit, what in gods name has that got to do with anything?

Same idea where some have been vilifying people of a different race causing an increase of racial attacks. BLM are not in the same league as the KKK though. I disagree with their methods but they aren't fundamentally arguing that one race is better than another.

Out of curiosity how many times do I need to say it isn't just the fault of white people until you stop insinuating that I said it is all the fault of white people?

Sure I'll join you in white lives matter once we bring down the proportion of black men killed?

Gatling · 08-07-2016 03:46PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Local police here in CA have started using drones to tail suspects, in a manner similar to the use of helicopters prior to that. .

Small dji type drones or similar Manic ?

Apologies for the off topicness

B.A._Baracus · 08-07-2016 03:46PM

Utdfan20titles wrote: »

What a ****ed up country america is

Totally agree.
It's almost like something major is happening on a monthly basis now. Last month was the gay nightclub shooting and now this. What's next you start to think.

orubiru · 08-07-2016 03:48PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Of course all lives matter but the point is you have a group of people who feel their lives matter less because of their skin colour. Look back at the recent murders by cop. Do you really think k they would have happened to white guys or asians? We don't need white lives matter or asian lives matter because they don't need to worry about cops shooting them and getting away with it. Their lives already matter. To far too many people black lives don't by the looks of things.

"We don't need white lives matter or asian lives matter because they don't need to worry about cops shooting them and getting away with it."

I think you are making a dreadful mistake with this kind of rhetoric.
White people and Asian people ARE killed by police and the police do "get away" with it.

If the focus MUST be on race then the focus needs to be on the fact that they shoot disproportionately high numbers of African Americans.

(what about poor people shot by cops vs rich people shot by cops, unemployed people shot by cops vs employed people shot by cops, people with criminal records shot by cops vs people without criminal records shot by cops?)

You can't just say that Whites and Asians don't need to worry about being shot by cops. That's silly and untrue.

Rhetoric like this is kind of dangerous if it becomes mainstream.

The volume of killings of civilians by police officers is unacceptable AND the disproportionate rates of killings of black people is unacceptable.

You can't solve one problem while ignoring the other.

We are surely not going to see an attitude where we say that if the police would just kill black people at a rate that matches the % of the population who are black then it's all OK, right?

There are not really a lot of options here.

Tell the police to kill black people at a more proportional rate? No.
Tell the police to kill more white people to balance things out? No.

Tell the police to stop killing civilians from ALL backgrounds? Yes, that sounds like the best solution, right?

But then we have people who come along and say "we don't need white lives matter or asian lives matter because they don't need to worry about cops shooting them and getting away with it". What's that all about?

This doesn't actually have to be about race. The cops should not really be killing people at all to be honest.

The whole thing is a mess. America is a mess.

Foxtrol · 08-07-2016 03:49PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

By the looks of things alright but all you offer are unsubstantiated allegations. There is clearly an issue with over militarised police in the US which affects ALL communities.

The difficult thing is that in this, and other situations that occur regularly enough, you see that the normal police officer is completely under militarized to deal with these types of incidents.

It’s nearly impossible to find the right balance and as a result you both types of situations you see the last few days. Cops overreact due to fear due to knowing that they don’t have a chance if someone pulls before they do or someone arrives with more powerful weapons and/or wearing body armour and they’re open to being slaughtered.

ScumLord · 08-07-2016 03:51PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Totally agree.
It's almost like something major is happening on a monthly basis now. Last month was the gay nightclub shooting and now this. What's next you start to think.

The scary thing about it is it seems like chaos. There's not one group causing the trouble it's all groups turning on each other. There are extremists stocking the fire but how can they be separated from the rest of the groups?

Autonomous Cowherd · 08-07-2016 03:54PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

You are aware you’re comparing a police force dealing with a highly armed population and one that is unarmed?

It’s like comparing the risk of a zoo keeper of a lion enclosure to that of a miniature dog groomer.

It's a fair point you make. But it is worth keeping in mind that about 75% of US citizens are unarmed and the number is consistently dropping. About 30% of Swedes own guns but the rate of killing of civilians by police is MUCH much much lower - ''in the 18 years to July 2013, 18 people were shot dead by Swedish police.''http://www.channel4.com/news/police-fatal-shooting-trigger-happy-fact-check

Tthere is a problem with police killing citizens in US

orubiru · 08-07-2016 03:57PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Sure I'll join you in white lives matter once we bring down the proportion of black men killed?

How do you do that though?

Put a cap on the number of black men the cops are allowed to kill?

The police should not be killing civilians AT ALL.

You are proposing telling a police force that we aren't concerned that they've killed 556 people so far this year, we are more concerned that 136 of them are black.

So what? If they just killed less black people then it would all be fine?

To be clear here you are saying it doesn't really matter how many non-black people the police are killing at the moment, our first priority should be to get them killing less black people and THEN we can maybe try to stop them from killing other races too?

How about just trying to get that 556 figure down to 0?

Gatling · 08-07-2016 03:59PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

It’s nearly impossible to find the right balance and as a result you both types of situations you see the last few days. Cops overreact due to fear due to knowing that they don’t have a chance if someone pulls before they do or someone arrives with more powerful weapons and/or wearing body armour and they’re open to being slaughtered.

But we're seeing on a regular basis is minor traffic stops cops walk up to the drivers doors with a a 9mm pistol and finger on the trigger asking for licence and registration and when the drivers do as they are asked to ie licence and registration there shot dead and the cops claim they shot because they believed the driver was reaching for a gun.

If a cop was that worried they could easily take cover at the rear of there cruiser while they cover a suspect with a shotgun or AR 15 .
It's piss poor training and lack of accountability that's leading to unnecessary killings

lawlolawl · 08-07-2016 04:08PM

Gatling wrote: »

But we're seeing on a regular basis is minor traffic stops cops walk up to the drivers doors with a a 9mm pistol and finger on the trigger asking for licence and registration and when the drivers do as they are asked to ie licence and registration there shot dead and the cops claim they shot because they believed the driver was reaching for a gun.

"Regular basis"?

Hardly.

Foxtrol · 08-07-2016 04:08PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

It's a fair point you make. But it is worth keeping in mind that about 75% of US citizens are unarmed and the number is consistently dropping. About 30% of Swedes own guns but the rate of killing of civilians by police is MUCH much much lower - ''in the 18 years to July 2013, 18 people were shot dead by Swedish police.''http://www.channel4.com/news/police-fatal-shooting-trigger-happy-fact-check

Tthere is a problem with police killing citizens in US

And what is the rate of Swedish people shooting and killing their police officers?

I actually can’t find the stats for your comparison, but to use the OP’s 42 US Police Officers were shot and killed in 2015 while 0 UK Police Officers died due to shootings.

I agree there is a problem with US police killing citizens but attempting to compare their stats to other nations, with massively different cultures and levels of being armed, is incredibly misleading.

Gatling · 08-07-2016 04:09PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

"Regular basis"?

Hardly.

Yes regular

Bob24 · 08-07-2016 04:11PM

Gatling wrote: »

Yes regular

Regular could mean anything. Every day or every ten years are both regular but hardly the same thing

RustyNut · 08-07-2016 04:11PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

"Regular basis"?

Hardly.

Way too regular.

Gatling · 08-07-2016 04:14PM

Bob24 wrote: »

Regular could mean anything. Every day or every ten years are both regular but hardly the same thing

1600 people shot and killed by US police this year apparently so yeah regularly 4 per day ,
Per state 365 days a year

ScumLord · 08-07-2016 04:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

If a cop was that worried they could easily take cover at the rear of there cruiser while they cover a suspect with a shotgun or AR 15 .
It's piss poor training and lack of accountability that's leading to unnecessary killings

The police probably aren't being trained enough. But I don't know how much training would be enough to not be afraid of being shot? I think fear is probably more of an influence than racism when these police officers end up shooting someone.

Americans can't on one hand feel sorry for the mess their soldiers end up being in from the fear of being in a war zone, then on the other condemn the police for being afraid of the exact same thing happening to them in a hostile zone.

Guns are scary. As long as there's the possibility a police officer can be killed instantly by a gun, it's impossible for them to not to act in fear. I wouldn't be a police officer in America for any amount of money, you'd have to be nuts to take that job.

orubiru · 08-07-2016 04:15PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

"Regular basis"?

Hardly.

To be fair, the only acceptable frequency is "never".

Even if it happens once a year, that is absolutely unacceptable.

You simply cannot have people, of any race, being stopped for something like a broken tail light and ending up shot dead because the police officers were nervous or whatever.

Autonomous Cowherd · 08-07-2016 04:15PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

And what is the rate of Swedish people shooting and killing their police officers?

I actually can’t find the stats for your comparison, but to use the OP’s 42 US Police Officers were shot and killed in 2015 while 0 UK Police Officers died due to shootings.

I agree there is a problem with US police killing citizens but attempting to compare their stats to other nations, with massively different cultures and levels of being armed, is incredibly misleading.

But that is partially my point....citizens of other states are not killing their police officers and there are massively different cultures. So this is rooted very deeply into a divided society and poor education and endemic inequality and generational racism and so on and so forth. Killing citizens will not solve any of this.

And your use of adverbs is misleading if I may say so ...''massively'' different levels of being armed is not what I showed. US has about 25% of citizens being armed and Sweden has 30%. The NUMBERS of guns owned are significantly different, though again not ''Massive''. Comparing statistics is exactly why the US sends police to other countries to have them trained in non lethal management of populations. There is nothing so ''incredibly'' misleading about using statistics in this case.

lawlolawl · 08-07-2016 04:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

1600 people shot and killed by US police this year apparently so yeah regularly 4 per day ,
Per state 365 days a year

All in the manner that you described as happening on a "regular basis"?

Gatling · 08-07-2016 04:18PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

All in the manner that you described as happening on a "regular basis"?

Dear oh dear

Bob24 · 08-07-2016 04:19PM

Gatling wrote: »

1600 people shot and killed by US police this year apparently so yeah regularly 4 per day ,
Per state 365 days a year

Surely that is very regular. But vastly different from what you were talking about:

Gatling wrote:

But we're seeing on a regular basis is minor traffic stops cops walk up to the drivers doors with a a 9mm pistol and finger on the trigger asking for licence and registration and when the drivers do as they are asked to ie licence and registration there shot dead and the cops claim they shot because they believed the driver was reaching for a gun.

lawlolawl · 08-07-2016 04:21PM

Gatling wrote: »

Dear oh dear

Answer the question.

Gatling · 08-07-2016 04:27PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Answer the question.

Question was answered clearly .

Next please

Junkyard Tom · 08-07-2016 04:28PM

Don't know much about guns and stuff like that but if I went to live in the USofA I'd be all like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNEiBl3aQcY

Bob24 · 08-07-2016 04:31PM

Gatling wrote: »

Question was answered clearly .

Can you point us to your answer? It doesn't see to show up for me either.

11 police shot, 4 officers dead after coordinated sniper fire at Dallas protest rally

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