Army "called in to shoot cows over debt dispute"

stuar · 06-07-2016 04:48PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXryIHOpJqo

mzungu · 06-07-2016 04:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Worst story i ever herd. The media will milk this for all it's worth.

Manure talkin' some shoite!

Muahahaha · 06-07-2016 04:49PM

This story is weird and not everything is adding up. The farmer has claiming that while the cattle were being shot he was running across the field trying to save them, all the while the army were firing at the cows. I find that really hard to believe that the army put a citizen in any danger.

The truth will come out but regardless of that I think we must ask wtf the army are doing involved in a repossession with a private citizen. Using the army for debt collection would be pretty astonishing imo

The Backwards Man · 06-07-2016 04:52PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

This story is weird and not everything is adding up. The farmer has claiming that while the cattle were being shot he was running across the field trying to save them, all the while the army were firing at the cows. I find that really hard to believe that the army put a citizen in any danger.

The truth will come out but regardless of that I think we must ask wtf the army are doing involved in a repossession with a private citizen. Using the army for debt collection would be pretty astonishing imo

The army weren't brought in for the repossession, they were brought in to protect public safety, as is their duty.

Alf Stewart. · 06-07-2016 04:56PM

Reminds me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=331YmwuQUGU

Dyr · 06-07-2016 05:07PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The army weren't brought in for the repossession, they were brought in to protect public safety, as is their duty.

Much like the RIC and local militia were back in the day, just in case the farmers got any ideas about messing around with public safety.

While we're here anyone know the official line from the guards of having fellas with covered faces showing in cars with plates and tax disks covered up at these evictions

As someone noted: Scumbags.

06-07-2016 05:16PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A Vet. Cows have weird heads (I think that's the veterinary term), which has something to do with bony cavities, and you have to be very careful about where to apply a bolt, otherwise you end up causing a lot of unnecessary pain.

It shouldn't have been difficult to catch these animals and kill them humanely with veterinary assistance. It's a farm in Monaghan, not the wild west.

But vets are not exactly known as being crack shots.

If animals have to be killed, well then the army is brought in. I understand they have been used to kill deer before, there were certainly calls for them to be brought in to shoot deer in areas where there are no park rangers (outside National Parks). No one sends a vet running around after deer with a bolt. The priority is killing the animals, not applying some rules that really apply to slaughterhouses.

I presume if it's part of debt collection, the creditor has to pay them. Much as happens when Gardai are brought in as back up in evictions and the like.

Johnmuck · 06-07-2016 05:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But vets are not exactly known as being crack shots.

They failed to mention these were Vietnam Vets.

Steve012 · 06-07-2016 05:20PM

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/watch-cattle-allegedly-shot-by-army-in-debt-dispute-214374

This just popped up on my newsfeed. May be more to it than what is mentioned in the article of course.

But still, it's a bit of an extreme approach to take if true, no?

What a shower of way anchors... cowards.. Extreme to say the least!
Poor aul moo cows..
The boys should be ashamed of themselves, there's taking orders and there's taking the piss.

06-07-2016 05:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But vets are not exactly known as being crack shots.

Conor... if these animals were TB reactors, it means they have already been rounded up by handlers, and were injected by a competent vet, and were then tested a few days later by the same vet

I cannot understand why, if the animals were previously capable of capture, why they are not now capable of capture and veterinary handling. What has changed?

I'm not an animal welfare fanatic, but I'm having some difficulty in even imagining why this had to resort to army intervention. You would typically expect a vet to handle the entire process, with further oversight by the District Veterinary office/ Department of Agriculture, if necessary.

06-07-2016 05:31PM

Bambi wrote: »

Much like the RIC and local militia were back in the day, just in case the farmers got any ideas about messing around with public safety.

While we're here anyone know the official line from the guards of having fellas with covered faces showing in cars with plates and tax disks covered up at these evictions

As someone noted: Scumbags.

Why would there be an official line from the guards about people covering their faces?
Hardly illegal

Alf Stewart. · 06-07-2016 05:37PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would there be an official line from the guards about people covering their faces?
Hardly illegal

Maybe not illegal, but my local newsagent flat out refuse to serve me with my motorbike helmet on.

Security won't even let me through the door :mad:

foggy_lad · 06-07-2016 06:19PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A Vet. Cows have weird heads (I think that's the veterinary term), which has something to do with bony cavities, and you have to be very careful about where to apply a bolt, otherwise you end up causing a lot of unnecessary pain.

The Army will have done their job in the best way possible to avoid risks to public safety and also to minimise suffering to the animals. that these beasts could not be herded or put into a crush means using a humane killer was not an option and while head shots would not be guaranteed the animals will have been felled and dispatched without delay.

It shouldn't have been difficult to catch these animals and kill them humanely with veterinary assistance. It's a farm in Monaghan, not the wild west.

Having said that, coming from a farm myself, I'd be raging if there were TB reactors coming through gaps onto our place. But the first question I'd be asking, is what kind of incompetent so-and-so can't round up a few heifers and get them back into a yard?

Most of the animals were rounded up with great difficulty as they were all quite wild and had been roaming freely through fields and also on public roads. The reason these last 5 were not rounded up was apparently due to security concerns possibly to do with whatever fields they were located in.

“Removal of the remaining five cattle was not possible due to security issues over persons involved in previous removals, of which An Garda Síochána are aware,” he said.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/watch-cattle-allegedly-shot-by-army-in-debt-dispute-214374

We also have reports of locked and chained gates being opened to let the animals out to prevent them being taken.

Muahahaha wrote: »

This story is weird and not everything is adding up. The farmer has claiming that while the cattle were being shot he was running across the field trying to save them, all the while the army were firing at the cows. I find that really hard to believe that the army put a citizen in any danger.

The truth will come out but regardless of that I think we must ask wtf the army are doing involved in a repossession with a private citizen. Using the army for debt collection would be pretty astonishing imo

The army were called in by the Gardai who were acting in the public interest in seeking to have the last 5 heifers killed because of their security concerns for those rounding up the animals.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Conor... if these animals were TB reactors, it means they have already been rounded up by handlers, and were injected by a competent vet, and were then tested a few days later by the same vet

The herd had been extensively tested(the animals which had been rounded up previously) and TB reactors found so restrictions were in place.

I cannot understand why, if the animals were previously capable of capture, why they are not now capable of capture and veterinary handling. What has changed?

They were not all capyured before and the owners and possibly others had been moving the animals around and opening locked gates to allow the animals run freely on public roads.

The animals were described as being "wild and dangerous" and "experienced cattle assistants" were unable to round them up so they were left with no alternative but to call the Army to shoot the heifers.

I'm not an animal welfare fanatic, but I'm having some difficulty in even imagining why this had to resort to army intervention. You would typically expect a vet to handle the entire process, with further oversight by the District Veterinary office/ Department of Agriculture, if necessary.

When the Gardai say they have security concerns for people in an area especially near the border then it is clearly an area where paramilitary elements are operating and add to this the difficulty rounding up the animals and the TB threat and the only option is to get the Army to shoot the animals.

It probably would not have been necessary if the owner had been cooperating.

If I was one of that person's neighbours I would have shot any of his animals that came near my land!

06-07-2016 06:31PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

The Army will have done their job in the best way possible to avoid risks to public safety and also to minimise suffering to the animals.

I'm afraid I have more faith in the ability of our veterinary professionals than I do in the men-in-green. I'm not sure what makes you so certain about the abilities of those guys as animal marksmen.

that these beasts could not be herded or put into a crush means using a humane killer was not an option

If they were TB reactors, they've obviously been captured and put in a crush (at least twice) recently.

Kovu · 06-07-2016 06:38PM

Weird story alright, we're definitely not getting the full facts. Yes the army will shoot cattle if they are deemed a safely hazard to the public at large. However 'The Hub' is portraying the marksmen to be just shooting willy nilly all over the place.
Cattle with TB are not a serious health concern, if they show a positive reaction to the injection they are separated from the rest of the herd and sent off to slaughter within a certain timeframe. If these animals had TB they were going to be killed regardless, though perhaps with less stress and fanfare. No animal from a herd restricted with TB can be sold or moved into a different herd number so with a debt collection agency involved, there was only one way for the entire herd of animals to go.
The rumours of holding pens & sheds being locked and the cattle running wild would also back up why they were shot, if you cannot pen the animals then you cannot load them to be sent to the factory or have a vet put them down. No neighbouring farmer would like to have them loaded from his yard either because a) risk of cross-infection and b) the owner of the cattle would be highly cheesed off at you.

onlyme! · 06-07-2016 06:41PM

Put simply

The debt collector made a complete balls of recovering the cattle, so he told the guards/army to shoot them

BattleCorp · 06-07-2016 06:51PM

onlyme! wrote: »

Put simply

The debt collector made a complete balls of recovering the cattle, so he told the guards/army to shoot them

I'm puzzled. A debt collector is there to recover assets to pay for a debt. A live cow is an asset. A dead cow that was shot by the army isn't much of an asset. There was no benefit for the debt collector in killing the cattle.

I'm struggling to believe the TB angle too. The cattle have to be penned and tested by a vet to determine if they have TB or not. So if there were tested, they mustn't have been too wild or dangerous on that day.

But then again, I doubt it is easy to get the Dept. Of Agriculture to call out the army unless there was a valid reason.

Lots of this story doesn't make sense. From both sides.

06-07-2016 06:54PM

Kovu wrote: »

The rumours of holding pens & sheds being locked and the cattle running wild would also back up why they were shot

yes, if yards and sheds were locked, that's obviously a difficulty.

But bringing the army in is a bit mad. Surely it would make more sense to have the Gardai accompany a Vet and any officials from the Department of Agriculture.

The 'wild cattle'/'big fields' thing is a red herring... these animals were recently tested. Plenty of mad cattle in Ireland, including reactors, and we don't call in the army to shoot them.

The only logical reason I can think of, is that local vets were unwilling to participate, maybe because they feared losing business, or local loyalties, or something more sinister.

Kovu · 06-07-2016 06:57PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm puzzled. A debt collector is there to recover assets to pay for a debt. A live cow is an asset. A dead cow that was shot by the army isn't much of an asset. There was no benefit for the debt collector in killing the cattle.

If the cattle that were shot had TB they would only be worth compensation money so alive or dead would not matter much to a debt collection agency.

It seems the cattle were being ran around the place and were on public roads, it would be a very difficult task to get them into any sort of pen as they'd be driven daft with strangers after them all day. Lots of quiet cattle would go mad after similar events.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

yes, if yards and sheds were locked, that's obviously a difficulty.

But bringing the army in is a bit mad. Surely it would make more sense to have the Gardai accompany a Vet and any officials from the Department of Agriculture.

Army marksmen are always brought in if animals need to be shot long range.

06-07-2016 07:04PM

Kovu wrote: »

Army marksmen are always brought in if animals need to be shot long range.

Let me rephrase... bringing in the army for a job like this seems a bit mad.

I assume there are details which are not being reported, becuase on the face of it, it isn't clear why Gardai, and a vet, or a slaughterhouse couldn't do it.

Kovu · 06-07-2016 07:11PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Let me rephrase... bringing in the army for a job like this seems a bit mad.

I assume there are details which are not being reported, becuase on the face of it, it isn't clear why Gardai, and a vet, or a slaughterhouse couldn't do it.

If the animals could not be rounded up or taken off the public roads and secured in a pen on the owners farm, it would be the go-to procedure. Wasn't there over 30 cattle shot by the army down in Cork a few years ago, think they had been allowed roam wild. Sure Gardai or vets wouldn't have great aim to shoot them! Remember a bull shot there on the M1 a couple of months ago. Army marksmen also cleared out a lot of sheep in the mountains when the foot and mouth was in full flow.
TB positive animals wouldn't be allowed to stay on other farmers land or in sheds. Paperwork shoite basically. You're not supposed to use a holding area for animals of different herd numbers and if the owner wouldn't let them be loaded then they couldn't do much else.

I'm not defending the people who did it, just trying to offer an explanation btw!

Alf Stewart. · 06-07-2016 07:24PM

Bit more to the story here

As Official Assignee I have a duty to recover value from assets of bankruptcy estates and it is clearly not in my interests to kill cattle, nor would I do it, without firstly having exhausted every other possible avenue
open to me to resolve the problem.”

He said that over many weeks as part of fulfilling his statutory role he visited the farm in question and have carried out extensive TB testing in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture.

“The results of those tests proved positive in the herd, greatly restricting what I could do with the animals.”

The statement goes on to say that he tried to take all the cattle off the farm with experienced cattle assistants, some times successfully, some times not successfully; as the cattle were in large fields and were wild and dangerous.

However, he said that gates were repeatedly opened involving cutting of chains, leaving the cattle wandering over the roads endangering the local community, road users and the cattle.

“Myself and my staff on receiving Garda reports of wandering cattle repeatedly at night and early morning had to travel to Monaghan round up the cattle and secure the field. With theft of 15 cattle, removal of the remaining 5 cattle was not possible due to security issues over persons involved in previous removals, of which An Garda Síochána are aware.”

Lehane said that it was in the interests of the cattle, public safety of the local community and to prevent the spread of TB in local livestock, the decision was very reluctantly made by him following consultation with and approval of, the Department of Agricultural Officials and with cooperation of An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces to carry out the cull.

“It was carried out by trained members of the Defence Forces in a controlled environment.”

Da Regulator · 06-07-2016 07:24PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you have a source for either of those statements?

I said in the OP that there is probably more to it, but why should I believe you any more than what's said in the article?

Gosh, time to chill out and keep an open mind pal.

Chris Lehane said it was carried out by trained army personnel in the interests of the animals, public safety and to prevent the spread of TB in local livestock following consultations between himself, Department of Agriculture officials, An Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces.

Article is on RTE news website

evolving_doors · 06-07-2016 07:32PM

They do a cull on the dear in the Phoenix Park every so often! I seem to remember twas the army what did it.

Barry Badrinath · 06-07-2016 07:42PM

ZOMBIE COWS!!!!

It's the only explanation.

humberklog · 06-07-2016 07:42PM

Did they use Moozi sub machine guns?

06-07-2016 07:46PM

Kovu wrote: »

If the animals could not be rounded up or taken off the public roads and secured in a pen on the owners farm, it would be the go-to procedure.

It may have happened before in Cork, I don't know, but I'm not sure there's actually a go-to procedure. It's exceptionally rare to hear of animals that could once be herded into a crush for a TB test, and later a reading, suddenly becoming incapable of capture.

The above article says the animals were shot in "a controlled environment", which indicates they weren't wandering the roads at that stage.

I don't particularly care either way, this is no skin off my nose. If I was a neighbouring farmer, i'd be glad of the outcome.

Using Army resources in this way just seems a bit odd. Then again, I'm sure if I were in the army, I'd relish the opportunity to finally fire a shot.

RobertKK · 06-07-2016 07:50PM

The cattle were wild,, they look like they are limousin cattle and some of them can be very wild in nature, though AI stations have for years been selecting Limousins that showed a quieter temperament to try and remove this unwanted trait.
The cattle were probably reared on cows and maybe not enough human interaction to calm them down, it is always good for the farmer to talk to his/her cattle as it does make them quieter.
They would not have been shot unless it was absolutely necessary. These cattle were wild and the herd had a TB problem. The cattle seemingly were allowed to roam the roads, and one of the rules for farms payments from the EU/state is your fioelds are suppose to be stock proof - though with wild cattle that would be more difficult.
For people that don't understand cattle, they can be the nicest animals around and like a pet, but then when I was a child, my mother was brining in the cows to be milked and a cow that was quiet knocked her to the ground and was pushing her, thankfully she had the dog with her to bring the cows in and he came and got the cow away from her - that cow ended up going to the factory att he earliest opportunity.
Then on my sister's farm they had this bull that was wild and very dangerous. They had him a field near the house and wanted to get rid of him but he was crazy, when bringing him into the yard to put him into a shed to feed him up before sending to the factory, he attacked my father and sent him flying in the air and he in his 70s, he got a broken rib but thankfully nothing more serious. They ended up taking him to a butcher and he was shot in the cattle box as he was totally crazy.
Wild cattle are very dangerous and to have them roaming the roads would be putting people in danger, I can see why they were shot, because knowing the department of Agriculture I am 100% certain they would have tried everything before they got to the stage of having to shoot the animals. then add TB into the mix, these five animals may not have had TB but when a herd has TB it is restricted in movement apart from going to a factory or a feedlot.
What happened these cattle was the last resort, as you don't hear of this happening and I can remember no other case like it.

06-07-2016 07:54PM

RobertKK wrote: »

They would not have been shot unless it was absolutely necessary. .

Yet it seems their handlers were previously able to get them into a crush, where a veterinary surgeon was able to inject them with tuberculin; come back a few days later and measure their lesions with a calipers, or at least, get close enough to visually detect any possible swelling.

Bit contradictory, no?

Barry Badrinath · 06-07-2016 07:57PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Using Army resources in this way just seems a bit odd. Then again, I'm sure if I were in the army, I'd relish the opportunity to finally fire a shot.

Part of the Defence Forces role is to provide support to An Garda Siochana.

They were requested to perform a task, they performed it.

No one relishes to "finally fire a shot". There would have been no high fiving, snapchatting or glorifying what they did.

You don't seem to be accepting the story. What exactly do you think happened to lead to this?

Army "called in to shoot cows over debt dispute"

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