Army "called in to shoot cows over debt dispute"

My name is URL

Five heifers were allegedly shot by members of the armed forces on Tuesday as part of an alleged debt recovery exercise.

The Irish Farmers Journal has been contacted by the owners of the animals who allege that five of their heifers were shot by members of the army on a farm in Co Monaghan.

The owners of the stock told the Irish Farmers Journal that the army was called to shoot the animals after the debt collection service had struggled to load the five animals on to a truck. The owners also allege that all other machinery from the farm had been removed. It is understood that the local Department of Agriculture vet had been made aware of the military exercise.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/watch-cattle-allegedly-shot-by-army-in-debt-dispute-214374

This just popped up on my newsfeed. May be more to it than what is mentioned in the article of course.

But still, it's a bit of an extreme approach to take if true, no?

I would have thought about 1 metre of black wavin plastic piping across the rump usually gets them moving.

Getting the army to go to the heifer seems like a serious waste of time and money.

Andy Magic

Scumbags :mad:

alchemist33

Deleted User wrote: »

I would have thought about 1 metre of black wavin plastic piping across the rump usually gets them moving.

Getting the army to go to the heifer seems like a serious waste of time and money.

And a serious waste of heifers. If true, this is disgraceful.

My name is URL

Deleted User wrote: »

I would have thought about 1 metre of black wavin plastic piping across the rump usually gets them moving.

Getting the army to go to the heifer seems like a serious waste of time and money.

I'd be less worried about the money and time being wasted and more about the fecking army being used as a tool in debt disputes of private citizens!

That seems like a seriously dodgy road to head down.

The Backwards Man

There's a lot more to the story than that, the cattle had TB and were running wild through the back roads of Monaghan, don't believe all the ****stirring you read on The Hub

The_Valeyard

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's a lot more to the story than that, the cattle had TB and were running wild through the back roads of Monaghan, don't believe all the ****stirring you read on The Hub

If they had TB, serious health Issue. If gone mad, could have been serious danger to the public.

If not, complete over reaction to use the defence forces.


Luckily these were not cows with guns.

endacl

OK. I'll go first.

Irish army involved in moo-noeuvres.

Johnmuck

♪ ♫

He was a scrawny calf, who looked rather woozy
No one suspected he was packing an Uzi
Cows with guns

They came with a needle to stick in his thigh
He kicked for the groin, he pissed in their eye
Cow well hung

Knocked over a tractor and ran for the door
Six gallons of gas flowed out on the floor
Run cows run!

He picked up a bullhorn and jumped up on the hay
We are free roving bovines, we run free today.

♪ ♫

PARlance

endacl wrote: »

OK. I'll go first.

Irish army involved in moo-noeuvres.

Udder Bullocks

The Backwards Man

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If they had TB, serious health Issue. If gone mad, could have been serious danger to the public.

If not, complete over reaction to use the defence forces.


Luckily these were not cows with guns.

Aye, if I had a farm near there I'd be slow to call the shooting of whoever let them out an over reaction either. Having a herd turned down for TB is no laughing matter.

Allinall

Andy Magic wrote: »

Scumbags :mad:

Bit harsh.

They're just innocent heifers.

Skylinehead

endacl wrote: »

OK. I'll go first.

Irish army involved in moo-noeuvres.

There was a whole cattlelion of them involved

mzungu

Pull the udder one.

mzungu

Skylinehead wrote: »

There was a whole cattlelion of them involved

They sure are milking the situation now.

My name is URL

My name is URL wrote: »

I'd be less worried about the money and time being wasted and more about the fecking army being used as a tool in debt disputes of private citizens!

That seems like a seriously dodgy road to head down.

Huh?

There is nothing new in that. Who else would shoot animals?

Tabnabs

Bunch of cowherds...

endacl

mzungu wrote: »

They sure are milking the situation now.

Rightly cheesed off, and no mis-steak.

mzungu

endacl wrote: »

Rightly cheesed off, and no mis-steak.

I think we all need to heifer break from this.

My name is URL

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There's a lot more to the story than that, the cattle had TB and were running wild through the back roads of Monaghan, don't believe all the ****stirring you read on The Hub

Do you have a source for either of those statements?

I said in the OP that there is probably more to it, but why should I believe you any more than what's said in the article?

The Backwards Man

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Huh?

There is nothing new in that. Who else would shoot animals?

Yep, I remember years ago a neighbour of mine had a bull run amok in fields at the border and was heading for Derry City, we got it stopped in time but the British Army were ready to shoot it if it got too close to Shantallow.

The Backwards Man

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you have a source for either of those statements?

I said in the OP that there is probably more to it, but why should I believe you any more than what's said in the article?

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2016/07/06/4122821-cmx-cow-cull-due-to-public-safety/

Joe prim

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Yep, I remember years ago a neighbour of mine had a bull run amok in fields at the border and was heading for Derry City, we got it stopped in time but the British Army were ready to shoot it if it got too close to Shantallow.

Was it a Protestant or a Catholic bull ?

Alf Stewart.

Anyone know where in monaghan this took place?

Fcukin price of beef these days is shockin.

endacl

Joe prim wrote: »

Was it a Protestant or a Catholic bull ?

That would be an ecumoonical matter.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Huh?

There is nothing new in that. Who else would shoot animals?

A Vet. Cows have weird heads (I think that's the veterinary term), which has something to do with bony cavities, and you have to be very careful about where to apply a bolt, otherwise you end up causing a lot of unnecessary pain.

It shouldn't have been difficult to catch these animals and kill them humanely with veterinary assistance. It's a farm in Monaghan, not the wild west.

Having said that, coming from a farm myself, I'd be raging if there were TB reactors coming through gaps onto our place. But the first question I'd be asking, is what kind of incompetent so-and-so can't round up a few heifers and get them back into a yard?

The Backwards Man

Joe prim wrote: »

Was it a Protestant or a Catholic bull ?

When you have a raging bull charging towards you, you don't pause to ask him his thoughts on transubstantiation

Mardy Bum

Alf Stewart. wrote: »

Anyone know where in monaghan this took place?

Fcukin price of beef these days is shockin.

Carrick. There are parts of Monaghan that would be considered bandit country. This has dodgy written all over it.

Mr. CooL ICE

Those soldiers showed no emoootion

tayto lover

Worst story i ever herd. The media will milk this for all it's worth.

feargale

It's all bull.

stuar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXryIHOpJqo

mzungu

tayto lover wrote: »

Worst story i ever herd. The media will milk this for all it's worth.

Manure talkin' some shoite!

Muahahaha

This story is weird and not everything is adding up. The farmer has claiming that while the cattle were being shot he was running across the field trying to save them, all the while the army were firing at the cows. I find that really hard to believe that the army put a citizen in any danger.

The truth will come out but regardless of that I think we must ask wtf the army are doing involved in a repossession with a private citizen. Using the army for debt collection would be pretty astonishing imo

The Backwards Man

Muahahaha wrote: »

This story is weird and not everything is adding up. The farmer has claiming that while the cattle were being shot he was running across the field trying to save them, all the while the army were firing at the cows. I find that really hard to believe that the army put a citizen in any danger.

The truth will come out but regardless of that I think we must ask wtf the army are doing involved in a repossession with a private citizen. Using the army for debt collection would be pretty astonishing imo

The army weren't brought in for the repossession, they were brought in to protect public safety, as is their duty.

Alf Stewart.

Reminds me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=331YmwuQUGU

Dyr

The Backwards Man wrote: »

The army weren't brought in for the repossession, they were brought in to protect public safety, as is their duty.

Much like the RIC and local militia were back in the day, just in case the farmers got any ideas about messing around with public safety.

While we're here anyone know the official line from the guards of having fellas with covered faces showing in cars with plates and tax disks covered up at these evictions

As someone noted: Scumbags.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades!

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A Vet. Cows have weird heads (I think that's the veterinary term), which has something to do with bony cavities, and you have to be very careful about where to apply a bolt, otherwise you end up causing a lot of unnecessary pain.

It shouldn't have been difficult to catch these animals and kill them humanely with veterinary assistance. It's a farm in Monaghan, not the wild west.

But vets are not exactly known as being crack shots.

If animals have to be killed, well then the army is brought in. I understand they have been used to kill deer before, there were certainly calls for them to be brought in to shoot deer in areas where there are no park rangers (outside National Parks). No one sends a vet running around after deer with a bolt. The priority is killing the animals, not applying some rules that really apply to slaughterhouses.

I presume if it's part of debt collection, the creditor has to pay them. Much as happens when Gardai are brought in as back up in evictions and the like.

Johnmuck

Deleted User wrote: »

But vets are not exactly known as being crack shots.

They failed to mention these were Vietnam Vets.

Steve012

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/watch-cattle-allegedly-shot-by-army-in-debt-dispute-214374

This just popped up on my newsfeed. May be more to it than what is mentioned in the article of course.

But still, it's a bit of an extreme approach to take if true, no?

What a shower of way anchors... cowards.. Extreme to say the least!
Poor aul moo cows..
The boys should be ashamed of themselves, there's taking orders and there's taking the piss.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

But vets are not exactly known as being crack shots.

Conor... if these animals were TB reactors, it means they have already been rounded up by handlers, and were injected by a competent vet, and were then tested a few days later by the same vet

I cannot understand why, if the animals were previously capable of capture, why they are not now capable of capture and veterinary handling. What has changed?

I'm not an animal welfare fanatic, but I'm having some difficulty in even imagining why this had to resort to army intervention. You would typically expect a vet to handle the entire process, with further oversight by the District Veterinary office/ Department of Agriculture, if necessary.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

Much like the RIC and local militia were back in the day, just in case the farmers got any ideas about messing around with public safety.

While we're here anyone know the official line from the guards of having fellas with covered faces showing in cars with plates and tax disks covered up at these evictions

As someone noted: Scumbags.

Why would there be an official line from the guards about people covering their faces?
Hardly illegal

Alf Stewart.

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would there be an official line from the guards about people covering their faces?
Hardly illegal

Maybe not illegal, but my local newsagent flat out refuse to serve me with my motorbike helmet on.

Security won't even let me through the door :mad:

foggy_lad

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

A Vet. Cows have weird heads (I think that's the veterinary term), which has something to do with bony cavities, and you have to be very careful about where to apply a bolt, otherwise you end up causing a lot of unnecessary pain.

The Army will have done their job in the best way possible to avoid risks to public safety and also to minimise suffering to the animals. that these beasts could not be herded or put into a crush means using a humane killer was not an option and while head shots would not be guaranteed the animals will have been felled and dispatched without delay.

It shouldn't have been difficult to catch these animals and kill them humanely with veterinary assistance. It's a farm in Monaghan, not the wild west.

Having said that, coming from a farm myself, I'd be raging if there were TB reactors coming through gaps onto our place. But the first question I'd be asking, is what kind of incompetent so-and-so can't round up a few heifers and get them back into a yard?

Most of the animals were rounded up with great difficulty as they were all quite wild and had been roaming freely through fields and also on public roads. The reason these last 5 were not rounded up was apparently due to security concerns possibly to do with whatever fields they were located in.

“Removal of the remaining five cattle was not possible due to security issues over persons involved in previous removals, of which An Garda Síochána are aware,” he said.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/watch-cattle-allegedly-shot-by-army-in-debt-dispute-214374

We also have reports of locked and chained gates being opened to let the animals out to prevent them being taken.

Muahahaha wrote: »

This story is weird and not everything is adding up. The farmer has claiming that while the cattle were being shot he was running across the field trying to save them, all the while the army were firing at the cows. I find that really hard to believe that the army put a citizen in any danger.

The truth will come out but regardless of that I think we must ask wtf the army are doing involved in a repossession with a private citizen. Using the army for debt collection would be pretty astonishing imo

The army were called in by the Gardai who were acting in the public interest in seeking to have the last 5 heifers killed because of their security concerns for those rounding up the animals.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Conor... if these animals were TB reactors, it means they have already been rounded up by handlers, and were injected by a competent vet, and were then tested a few days later by the same vet

The herd had been extensively tested(the animals which had been rounded up previously) and TB reactors found so restrictions were in place.

I cannot understand why, if the animals were previously capable of capture, why they are not now capable of capture and veterinary handling. What has changed?

They were not all capyured before and the owners and possibly others had been moving the animals around and opening locked gates to allow the animals run freely on public roads.

The animals were described as being "wild and dangerous" and "experienced cattle assistants" were unable to round them up so they were left with no alternative but to call the Army to shoot the heifers.

I'm not an animal welfare fanatic, but I'm having some difficulty in even imagining why this had to resort to army intervention. You would typically expect a vet to handle the entire process, with further oversight by the District Veterinary office/ Department of Agriculture, if necessary.

When the Gardai say they have security concerns for people in an area especially near the border then it is clearly an area where paramilitary elements are operating and add to this the difficulty rounding up the animals and the TB threat and the only option is to get the Army to shoot the animals.

It probably would not have been necessary if the owner had been cooperating.



If I was one of that person's neighbours I would have shot any of his animals that came near my land!

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

The Army will have done their job in the best way possible to avoid risks to public safety and also to minimise suffering to the animals.

I'm afraid I have more faith in the ability of our veterinary professionals than I do in the men-in-green. I'm not sure what makes you so certain about the abilities of those guys as animal marksmen.

that these beasts could not be herded or put into a crush means using a humane killer was not an option

If they were TB reactors, they've obviously been captured and put in a crush (at least twice) recently.

Kovu

Weird story alright, we're definitely not getting the full facts. Yes the army will shoot cattle if they are deemed a safely hazard to the public at large. However 'The Hub' is portraying the marksmen to be just shooting willy nilly all over the place.
Cattle with TB are not a serious health concern, if they show a positive reaction to the injection they are separated from the rest of the herd and sent off to slaughter within a certain timeframe. If these animals had TB they were going to be killed regardless, though perhaps with less stress and fanfare. No animal from a herd restricted with TB can be sold or moved into a different herd number so with a debt collection agency involved, there was only one way for the entire herd of animals to go.
The rumours of holding pens & sheds being locked and the cattle running wild would also back up why they were shot, if you cannot pen the animals then you cannot load them to be sent to the factory or have a vet put them down. No neighbouring farmer would like to have them loaded from his yard either because a) risk of cross-infection and b) the owner of the cattle would be highly cheesed off at you.

onlyme!

Put simply

The debt collector made a complete balls of recovering the cattle, so he told the guards/army to shoot them

BattleCorp

onlyme! wrote: »

Put simply

The debt collector made a complete balls of recovering the cattle, so he told the guards/army to shoot them

I'm puzzled. A debt collector is there to recover assets to pay for a debt. A live cow is an asset. A dead cow that was shot by the army isn't much of an asset. There was no benefit for the debt collector in killing the cattle.

I'm struggling to believe the TB angle too. The cattle have to be penned and tested by a vet to determine if they have TB or not. So if there were tested, they mustn't have been too wild or dangerous on that day.

But then again, I doubt it is easy to get the Dept. Of Agriculture to call out the army unless there was a valid reason.

Lots of this story doesn't make sense. From both sides.

Kovu

Kovu wrote: »

The rumours of holding pens & sheds being locked and the cattle running wild would also back up why they were shot

yes, if yards and sheds were locked, that's obviously a difficulty.

But bringing the army in is a bit mad. Surely it would make more sense to have the Gardai accompany a Vet and any officials from the Department of Agriculture.

The 'wild cattle'/'big fields' thing is a red herring... these animals were recently tested. Plenty of mad cattle in Ireland, including reactors, and we don't call in the army to shoot them.

The only logical reason I can think of, is that local vets were unwilling to participate, maybe because they feared losing business, or local loyalties, or something more sinister.

Kovu

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm puzzled. A debt collector is there to recover assets to pay for a debt. A live cow is an asset. A dead cow that was shot by the army isn't much of an asset. There was no benefit for the debt collector in killing the cattle.

If the cattle that were shot had TB they would only be worth compensation money so alive or dead would not matter much to a debt collection agency.

It seems the cattle were being ran around the place and were on public roads, it would be a very difficult task to get them into any sort of pen as they'd be driven daft with strangers after them all day. Lots of quiet cattle would go mad after similar events.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

yes, if yards and sheds were locked, that's obviously a difficulty.

But bringing the army in is a bit mad. Surely it would make more sense to have the Gardai accompany a Vet and any officials from the Department of Agriculture.

Army marksmen are always brought in if animals need to be shot long range.

Kovu

Kovu wrote: »

Army marksmen are always brought in if animals need to be shot long range.

Let me rephrase... bringing in the army for a job like this seems a bit mad.

I assume there are details which are not being reported, becuase on the face of it, it isn't clear why Gardai, and a vet, or a slaughterhouse couldn't do it.