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Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

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Comments

  • #362
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I think it's been broadly accepted that one of the main problems with public transport in Dublin is the phenomenon known as An Lár. It is absolutely daft that commuters have to go into the city centre to make a connection in general, but doubly daft, inconvenient and a waste of time when that connection leads them back out the line they just came in on. One distant station should be designated an interchange point, served by all trains.


    that maybe an idea. however as i said each intercity service does have a connection point into the all stops suburban services. you also have to remember that IE'S train maintenence is done outside dublin, so you also have that to consider in terms of train paths.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #363
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    n97 mini wrote: »
    You probably wouldn't.

    I probably would.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92045347


  • #364
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    n97 mini wrote: »
    You probably wouldn't.

    I probably would.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92045347

    You need to find a hobby.


  • #365
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    n97 mini wrote: »
    I think it's been broadly accepted that one of the main problems with public transport in Dublin is the phenomenon known as An L r. It is absolutely daft that commuters have to go into the city centre to make a connection in general, but doubly daft, inconvenient and a waste of time when that connection leads them back out the line they just came in on. One distant station should be designated an interchange point, served by all trains.

    Well can I ask have you tried to simulate the entire Heuston operation and come up with schedules that will work, bearing in mind the sets available and the need to service them.

    I have - and that's what I'm basing my post above on.

    If you've already proved it, then show us your work.


  • #366
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    n97 mini wrote: »
    You need to find a hobby.

    It probably took him 30 seconds using the search engine, so hardly a hobby.

    But more to the point it showed you up as the sort of annoying customer that can never be satisfied, as you are prone to demanding completely contradictory things depending on what you have a problem with this week.


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  • #367
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    If you've already proved it, then show us your work.

    I don't have to justify myself to anyone - I've already given you a very clear explanation of why things are nowhere near as simple as you think that they are, and why the service pattern will have to be a particular pattern.


  • #368
    ClovenHoof
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    This thread has turned into a bit of witchhunt. I was not really slagging off lxflyer when I made that comment, more of a swipe at CIE.


  • #369
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    This thread has turned into a bit of witchhunt. I was not really slagging off lxflyer when I made that comment, more of a swipe at CIE.

    Hard to believe after all these years, that things have been reduced to petty arguments about a route that should have been in service nearly 20 feckin years ago..or more!


  • #370
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I don't have to justify myself to anyone - I've already given you a very clear explanation of why things are nowhere near as simple as you think that they are, and why the service pattern will have to be a particular pattern.

    Well you actually haven't. You've given an EOTR style "because I said so" type answer. You claim to have done work, but you won't show it.

    Like you I don't feel a need to justify myself, and while I have highlighted slow services in the past I have always advocated for convenience first when it comes to public transport. Vic08 misquoted me for his own ends; his posting style is usually to be abrasive towards people his disagrees with rather than argue the point (I don't know how he escaped from my ignore list). But my post he quoted was more of an observation than a complaint. I expect slower than what appears to be necessary is the first step in IE's plan for closure.

    I don't understand how some people could say a marginal (2 min) reduction in journey time is preferable to being able to make connections efficiently and enhance attractiveness, but each to their own. As long as none of these people are given jobs in public transport we're safe enough.


  • #371
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Well you actually haven't. You've given an EOTR style "because I said so" type answer. You claim to have done work, but you won't show it.

    Like you I don't feel a need to justify myself, and while I have highlighted slow services in the past I have always advocated for convenience first when it comes to public transport. Vic08 misquoted me for his own ends; his posting style is usually to be abrasive towards people his disagrees with rather than argue the point (I don't know how he escaped from my ignore list). But my post he quoted was more of an observation than a complaint. I expect slower than what appears to be necessary is the first step in IE's plan for closure.

    I don't understand how some people could say a marginal (2 min) reduction in journey time is preferable to being able to make connections efficiently and enhance attractiveness, but each to their own. As long as none of these people are given jobs in public transport we're safe enough.

    Do I take it from that , that you do have a job in public transport?

    The time taken to make an additional stop for an InterCity train is likely to be longer than 2 minutes I would hazard and that impacts on the attractiveness of a service already struggling from Motorway competition. To affect an entire train full of people for the sake of a handful of passengers getting another connection into the slower services doesn't seem tenable to me. AN extra stop would also impact the remaining paths. I can quite see that a balance has to be struck between doing everything connection-wise and having the best fast service.


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  • #372
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    Do I take it from that , that you do have a job in public transport?

    The time taken to make an additional stop for an InterCity train is likely to be longer than 2 minutes I would hazard and that impacts on the attractiveness of a service already struggling from Motorway competition. To affect an entire train full of people for the sake of a handful of passengers getting another connection into the slower services doesn't seem tenable to me. AN extra stop would also impact the remaining paths. I can quite see that a balance has to be struck between doing everything connection-wise and having the best fast service.

    exactly. completely correct. intercity services as i said do make stops to connect with the all stops suburbans as it is, i listed the connection points above.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #373
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,055 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    With only 2 tracks each way it'd quickly become a bottleneck if you included stopping and non stopping services.


  • #374
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Platform 10 would surely solve some of the issues - it would mean a switch was possible at Hueston albeit at off peak there may not be a nicely timed connection.

    Apropos of nothing, I was in the likes of Gare Du Nord, Bastille and (the monster) Chatelet Les Halle stations earlier in the month and having to walk 1000 or 1200 metres to make a connection between two lines is perfectly acceptable and normal there.

    Are you serious? That is a 15-20 minute walk within the station.
    n97 mini wrote: »
    I think it's been broadly accepted that one of the main problems with public transport in Dublin is the phenomenon known as An Lár. It is absolutely daft that commuters have to go into the city centre to make a connection in general, but doubly daft, inconvenient and a waste of time when that connection leads them back out the line they just came in on. One distant station should be designated an interchange point, served by all trains.

    Who is that accepted by? Dublin isn't all that large and the city centre is the place of commerce and leisure. The vast majority of people who get on a bus or train in Dublin are going to/from An Lar. It's just being practical.


  • #375
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Who is that accepted by? Dublin isn't all that large and the city centre is the place of commerce and leisure. The vast majority of people who get on a bus or train in Dublin are going to/from An Lar. It's just being practical.

    :rolleyes:

    Sorry, but I have to roll the eyes to that one.

    An Larism.:D A concept so outdated, but still followed, that it sums up the mindset in this country and particularly Dublin. It's not practical, it's lazy and has influenced generations.


  • #376
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,013 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Are you serious? That is a 15-20 minute walk within the station.

    Enclosed that is not an uncommon distance/connection time at all. There are tube stations in London with multiple hundred metre connections and those are on short distance services.

    When you need to make that connection outdoors, in the rain, with no signage it is a severe issue. Making it indoors, with signage, and facilities - you will probably go through a concourse with toilets, shops, etc - its very tolerable.

    Platforms at Heuston on the PPT with an enclosed walkway should be offered. They don't need to promote them - those who wish to use them will use them, and neither the capital nor operational cost of provision is not that high. "Heuston (West)† / †15 minute walk to Luas/Bus/Intercity" would do as naming.
    spacetweek wrote: »
    Who is that accepted by? Dublin isn't all that large and the city centre is the place of commerce and leisure. The vast majority of people who get on a bus or train in Dublin are going to/from An Lar. It's just being practical.

    Those that travel currently are going to/from the centre. Trying to get others to convert will require offering better connections. Years ago I was forced to get insurance and start driving again by working in Parkwest and living in Maynooth - transport options were either bus to "An Lar" and back out, or the more surreal but sometimes actually faster train to Connolly, Luas to Kylemore, free shuttle bus option.

    Eventually I found walking 8km a day from the 66 at Liffey Valley was actually quickest - but that was as a 19 year old with an endless supply of minidiscs for entertainment. I then decided to drive...


  • #377
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Are you serious? That is a 15-20 minute walk within the station.
    L1011 wrote: »
    Enclosed that is not an uncommon distance/connection time at all. There are tube stations in London with multiple hundred metre connections and those are on short distance services.

    I can't get the official times/distances for Paris, but as L1011 says London has some comparable examples also.
    In Paddington swapping between the Bakerloo line and Hammersmith line is estimated at 15 minutes walk by TfL, so presumably circa 1500 metres.
    http://www.cityam.com/226215/longest-tube-interchange-10-tube-stations-where-changing-lines-takes-longest

    Heuston <--> HeustonWest would be around 950 metres.


  • #378
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    I can't get the official times/distances for Paris, but as L1011 says London has some comparable examples also.<snip>
    at les halles/ chatelet its 750m aparantly. In practice with all the steps it feels longer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Ch%C3%A2telet_%E2%80%93_Les_Halles


  • #379
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    The time taken to make an additional stop for an InterCity train is likely to be longer than 2 minutes

    Intercity services making stops between anywhere on the Cork line adds 3 possibly going up to around 3.5 minutes once new speeds begin. Outside of this route the time added/saved is next to nothing in most cases.

    Intercity stopping patterns are heavily influenced by what capacity IE plan to operate on a particular service and the overall commuter demand. Passengers boarding from other stations don't really play a big role. The further west of Dublin you travel they must make a reasonable effort to have speedy services as they will lose passengers if they don't, ie Newbridge/Kildare customers.
    ______

    The talk of using P10 as a station for the GCD service is just not going to happen and it should not the demand is not there to make it work and it just eats into an service which is already going to take a long time.


  • #380
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    I think it must be more than that, the train has to slow to a stop, and then stand for at least a couple of minutes and then get back up to speed again.


  • #381
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    I think it must be more than that, the train has to slow to a stop, and then stand for at least a couple of minutes and then get back up to speed again.

    It's not, stops are scheduled for 30, 60 or 90 seconds depending on location out of 180 seconds.


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  • #382
    kc56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭kc56


    A non-stop train to Kildare is scheduled at 27 mins (1725) and one with one stop is given 30-31 mins (1735/1835).
    Non- stopping trains, eg Cork, pass though Kildare at typically 24-25 mins past the hour.
    That's 3-4 mins extra per stop.

    P10 is will not be served by the GCD trains due to absence of a crossover and lack of funds.


  • #383
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    kc56 wrote: »
    A non-stop train to Kildare is scheduled at 27 mins (1725) and one with one stop is given 30-31 mins (1735/1835).
    Non- stopping trains, eg Cork, pass though Kildare at typically 24-25 mins past the hour.
    That's 3-4 mins extra per stop.

    P10 is will not be served by the GCD trains due to absence of a crossover and lack of funds.

    TBH all routes have different times to Kildare non stop, services can do non stop to Kildare in less than 25 minutes and do it daily and others up to 28 minutes. In the majority of cases 3 minutes is the cost of the average additional stop. Even been on trains that have passed Kildare in 20 minutes.

    The Limerick service often in Kildare 2 minutes early and can even depart 2 minutes early.


  • #384
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    The talk of using P10 as a station for the GCD service is just not going to happen and it should not the demand is not there to make it work and it just eats into an service which is already going to take a long time.

    If the demand isn't there around Heuston we just need to give up with public transport in Ireland.

    The Heuston area had the HSE HQ, James's, the criminal courts, Garda HQ, Heuston South Quarter, TII (NRA/RPA) HQ, Luas, DublinBikes etc etc


  • #385
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    monument wrote: »
    If the demand isn't there around Heuston we just need to give up with public transport in Ireland.

    The Heuston area had the HSE HQ, James's, the criminal courts, Garda HQ, Heuston South Quarter, TII (NRA/RPA) HQ, Luas, DublinBikes etc etc

    But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

    This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.


  • #386
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

    This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.
    +1
    the benefit of the cross town direct trains from Kildare is for the people from Kildare to get across town without a change.

    If someone has to get off at Heuston to change to a cross town commuter train, then they have already failed to get the true benefit of the service and they may as well just get the Luas or a bus.

    if the one benefit is that you only need one ticket for a rail service rather than a more expensive rail and bus or luas ticket, well doesnt that show how thick and stupid Dublin area "integrated" ticketing is - that people mould their behaviour and commuting patterns to the ticketing arrangements and not to the best service for their needs.


  • #387
    savagethegoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    kc56 wrote: »
    A non-stop train to Kildare is scheduled at 27 mins (1725) and one with one stop is given 30-31 mins (1735/1835).
    Non- stopping trains, eg Cork, pass though Kildare at typically 24-25 mins past the hour.
    That's 3-4 mins extra per stop.

    P10 is will not be served by the GCD trains due to absence of a crossover and lack of funds.

    is that working timetable or public timetable?

    if the 17.25 made an extra stop, what effect would that have on the 17.35?


  • #388
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    is that working timetable or public timetable?

    if the 17.25 made an extra stop, what effect would that have on the 17.35?

    It would impact on the 17.30, and only leave 2 minutes or slightly less between them and likely force it to reduce speed.


  • #389
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,537 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

    This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.

    to facilitate people going from connolly to heuston for services out of there. it would frankly be much easier to get off a train in connolly, hop on the gcd/kildare service and get off at heuston, rather then wasting time walking all the way through connolly itself, out to luas, crawl through the streets, and so on. as far as i'm concerned they're is no excuse for this not to be stopping at platform 10.
    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    +1
    the benefit of the cross town direct trains from Kildare is for the people from Kildare to get across town without a change.

    If someone has to get off at Heuston to change to a cross town commuter train, then they have already failed to get the true benefit of the service and they may as well just get the Luas or a bus.

    if the one benefit is that you only need one ticket for a rail service rather than a more expensive rail and bus or luas ticket, well doesnt that show how thick and stupid Dublin area "integrated" ticketing is - that people mould their behaviour and commuting patterns to the ticketing arrangements and not to the best service for their needs.

    the benefit of this service is to allow anyone whether it be from kildare or cork, get a train that will take them cross town in a speedy manner. getting off a cork for example, onto the portlaoise suburban, crawling all the way to kildare, changing to the gcd train, means a ridiculously long journey. where as getting the train direct to heuston, hoping on the gcd train to your nearest stop to your work, makes the journey some bit worth while. not having the gcd serve platform 10 is nonsense and removing potential customers from the service. but never mind.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #390
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    to facilitate people going from connolly to heuston for services out of there. it would frankly be much easier to get off a train in connolly, hop on the gcd/kildare service and get off at heuston, rather then wasting time walking all the way through connolly itself, out to luas, crawl through the streets, and so on. as far as i'm concerned they're is no excuse for this not to be stopping at platform 10.

    So the walk from P10 to main entrance to Heuston is closer than walking from Connolly to the Luas. By the way the time difference between Luas and PPT will be minimal between both locations.


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  • #391
    kc56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭kc56


    savagethegoat wrote: »
    is that working timetable or public timetable?

    if the 17.25 made an extra stop, what effect would that have on the 17.35?

    Public for 1725/1735/1835
    Cork timing are observations at Kildare.


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