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Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Lenton Lane

In today's Herald, can someone post up a link?

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Del.Monte

Even a through express between Cork and Belfast - heaven forbid. :rolleyes:

Grandeeod

trellheim wrote: »

Or going to more central locations, if this is a success you might well see a couple of IC trains routed to Connolly or GCD

"SHUDDER":D

While it would be interesting, I have no doubt there will be a lot of excuses as to why it can't be done.

trellheim

Or going to more central locations, if this is a success you might well see a couple of IC trains routed to Connolly or GCD

Okon

Markcheese wrote: »

Seriously while dublin could do with more linking of modes of transport,and an orbital service/system, slowing down "intercity" services isnt a great idea..

Slow them down? Speed them up I say! Unnecessary extra stops wouldn't be my idea of fun. It's faster our Inter-City routes need to be getting.

spacetweek

L1011 wrote: »

Can't carry them on the bus to Liffey Valley, full trip unrealistic due to length, terrain and road type

Yes, we don't allow bicycles on buses in Ireland unless I'm mistaken.

L1011

Markcheese wrote: »

If only you'd heard of bicycles :-)
Seriously while dublin could do with more linking of modes of transport,and an orbital service/system, slowing down "intercity" services isnt a great idea..

Can't carry them on the bus to Liffey Valley, full trip unrealistic due to length, terrain and road type

LXFlyer

Just to add that platform 10 can only be accessed by terminating trains from the Kildare line, and by through trains from the PPT. There is no crossover north of the platform to facilitate access for trains to Connolly. There may well be clearance issues that prevent such a crossover being installed.

Hence you would have to add another platform, and that was outside the scope of this project, as it would significantly increase the costs as to build it would require an accessible footbridge to be installed.

Having used P10 in the past, I can say that expecting people to walk from the front of the main station is not practical - there would have to be a connecting bus.

As I said in my previous post - a Conyngham Road station would be a more realistic goal, but only when there is a realistic service level to warrant it.

LXFlyer

In time I think a station where P10 is located should be built, with another platform on the inbound (up) side, with access to/from Conyngham Road. That is going to be tricky given the clearance issues - it would need a station concourse to be built over the tracks to a point where ramps could be installed to access the platforms. But only when service levels actually justify it.

People seem to be forgetting that this is a low cost project, with plans only for one train per hour off-peak and, despite the thread title, only two or three trains per hour at peak.

The funds are not there right now for anything more and I think people need to reflect that in their expectations.

Heuston will continue to be served by all of the current services, facilitating anyone travelling to/from points west of O'Connell Bridge.

Markcheese

L1011 wrote:

Eventually I found walking 8km a day from the 66 at Liffey Valley was actually quickest - but that was as a 19 year old with an endless supply of minidiscs for entertainment. I then decided to drive...

If only you'd heard of bicycles :-)
Seriously while dublin could do with more linking of modes of transport,and an orbital service/system, slowing down "intercity" services isnt a great idea..

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.

The goal should be to offer everybody as high as frequently as is practically possible. If there isn't potential uptake for higher frequently on the Kildare route we might as well give up on Dart Underground.

kc56

savagethegoat wrote: »

is that working timetable or public timetable?

if the 17.25 made an extra stop, what effect would that have on the 17.35?

Public for 1725/1735/1835
Cork timing are observations at Kildare.

Jamie2k9

to facilitate people going from connolly to heuston for services out of there. it would frankly be much easier to get off a train in connolly, hop on the gcd/kildare service and get off at heuston, rather then wasting time walking all the way through connolly itself, out to luas, crawl through the streets, and so on. as far as i'm concerned they're is no excuse for this not to be stopping at platform 10.

So the walk from P10 to main entrance to Heuston is closer than walking from Connolly to the Luas. By the way the time difference between Luas and PPT will be minimal between both locations.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.

to facilitate people going from connolly to heuston for services out of there. it would frankly be much easier to get off a train in connolly, hop on the gcd/kildare service and get off at heuston, rather then wasting time walking all the way through connolly itself, out to luas, crawl through the streets, and so on. as far as i'm concerned they're is no excuse for this not to be stopping at platform 10.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

+1
the benefit of the cross town direct trains from Kildare is for the people from Kildare to get across town without a change.

If someone has to get off at Heuston to change to a cross town commuter train, then they have already failed to get the true benefit of the service and they may as well just get the Luas or a bus.

if the one benefit is that you only need one ticket for a rail service rather than a more expensive rail and bus or luas ticket, well doesnt that show how thick and stupid Dublin area "integrated" ticketing is - that people mould their behaviour and commuting patterns to the ticketing arrangements and not to the best service for their needs.

the benefit of this service is to allow anyone whether it be from kildare or cork, get a train that will take them cross town in a speedy manner. getting off a cork for example, onto the portlaoise suburban, crawling all the way to kildare, changing to the gcd train, means a ridiculously long journey. where as getting the train direct to heuston, hoping on the gcd train to your nearest stop to your work, makes the journey some bit worth while. not having the gcd serve platform 10 is nonsense and removing potential customers from the service. but never mind.

Jamie2k9

savagethegoat wrote: »

is that working timetable or public timetable?

if the 17.25 made an extra stop, what effect would that have on the 17.35?

It would impact on the 17.30, and only leave 2 minutes or slightly less between them and likely force it to reduce speed.

savagethegoat

kc56 wrote: »

A non-stop train to Kildare is scheduled at 27 mins (1725) and one with one stop is given 30-31 mins (1735/1835).
Non- stopping trains, eg Cork, pass though Kildare at typically 24-25 mins past the hour.
That's 3-4 mins extra per stop.

P10 is will not be served by the GCD trains due to absence of a crossover and lack of funds.

is that working timetable or public timetable?

if the 17.25 made an extra stop, what effect would that have on the 17.35?

munchkin_utd

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.

+1
the benefit of the cross town direct trains from Kildare is for the people from Kildare to get across town without a change.

If someone has to get off at Heuston to change to a cross town commuter train, then they have already failed to get the true benefit of the service and they may as well just get the Luas or a bus.

if the one benefit is that you only need one ticket for a rail service rather than a more expensive rail and bus or luas ticket, well doesnt that show how thick and stupid Dublin area "integrated" ticketing is - that people mould their behaviour and commuting patterns to the ticketing arrangements and not to the best service for their needs.

Jamie2k9

monument wrote: »

If the demand isn't there around Heuston we just need to give up with public transport in Ireland.

The Heuston area had the HSE HQ, James's, the criminal courts, Garda HQ, Heuston South Quarter, TII (NRA/RPA) HQ, Luas, DublinBikes etc etc

But they already have a good selection of service into Heuston, why do they need more?

This service is catering for those who work in central Dublin and might take this option, I don't see why a P10 stop is needed.

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The talk of using P10 as a station for the GCD service is just not going to happen and it should not the demand is not there to make it work and it just eats into an service which is already going to take a long time.

If the demand isn't there around Heuston we just need to give up with public transport in Ireland.

The Heuston area had the HSE HQ, James's, the criminal courts, Garda HQ, Heuston South Quarter, TII (NRA/RPA) HQ, Luas, DublinBikes etc etc

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

A non-stop train to Kildare is scheduled at 27 mins (1725) and one with one stop is given 30-31 mins (1735/1835).
Non- stopping trains, eg Cork, pass though Kildare at typically 24-25 mins past the hour.
That's 3-4 mins extra per stop.

P10 is will not be served by the GCD trains due to absence of a crossover and lack of funds.

TBH all routes have different times to Kildare non stop, services can do non stop to Kildare in less than 25 minutes and do it daily and others up to 28 minutes. In the majority of cases 3 minutes is the cost of the average additional stop. Even been on trains that have passed Kildare in 20 minutes.

The Limerick service often in Kildare 2 minutes early and can even depart 2 minutes early.

kc56

A non-stop train to Kildare is scheduled at 27 mins (1725) and one with one stop is given 30-31 mins (1735/1835).
Non- stopping trains, eg Cork, pass though Kildare at typically 24-25 mins past the hour.
That's 3-4 mins extra per stop.

P10 is will not be served by the GCD trains due to absence of a crossover and lack of funds.

Jamie2k9

savagethegoat wrote: »

I think it must be more than that, the train has to slow to a stop, and then stand for at least a couple of minutes and then get back up to speed again.

It's not, stops are scheduled for 30, 60 or 90 seconds depending on location out of 180 seconds.

savagethegoat

I think it must be more than that, the train has to slow to a stop, and then stand for at least a couple of minutes and then get back up to speed again.

Jamie2k9

The time taken to make an additional stop for an InterCity train is likely to be longer than 2 minutes

Intercity services making stops between anywhere on the Cork line adds 3 possibly going up to around 3.5 minutes once new speeds begin. Outside of this route the time added/saved is next to nothing in most cases.

Intercity stopping patterns are heavily influenced by what capacity IE plan to operate on a particular service and the overall commuter demand. Passengers boarding from other stations don't really play a big role. The further west of Dublin you travel they must make a reasonable effort to have speedy services as they will lose passengers if they don't, ie Newbridge/Kildare customers.
______

The talk of using P10 as a station for the GCD service is just not going to happen and it should not the demand is not there to make it work and it just eats into an service which is already going to take a long time.

munchkin_utd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I can't get the official times/distances for Paris, but as L1011 says London has some comparable examples also.<snip>

at les halles/ chatelet its 750m aparantly. In practice with all the steps it feels longer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gare_de_Ch%C3%A2telet_%E2%80%93_Les_Halles

ArmaniJeanss

spacetweek wrote: »

Are you serious? That is a 15-20 minute walk within the station.

L1011 wrote: »

Enclosed that is not an uncommon distance/connection time at all. There are tube stations in London with multiple hundred metre connections and those are on short distance services.

I can't get the official times/distances for Paris, but as L1011 says London has some comparable examples also.
In Paddington swapping between the Bakerloo line and Hammersmith line is estimated at 15 minutes walk by TfL, so presumably circa 1500 metres.
http://www.cityam.com/226215/longest-tube-interchange-10-tube-stations-where-changing-lines-takes-longest

Heuston <--> HeustonWest would be around 950 metres.

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

Are you serious? That is a 15-20 minute walk within the station.

Enclosed that is not an uncommon distance/connection time at all. There are tube stations in London with multiple hundred metre connections and those are on short distance services.

When you need to make that connection outdoors, in the rain, with no signage it is a severe issue. Making it indoors, with signage, and facilities - you will probably go through a concourse with toilets, shops, etc - its very tolerable.

Platforms at Heuston on the PPT with an enclosed walkway should be offered. They don't need to promote them - those who wish to use them will use them, and neither the capital nor operational cost of provision is not that high. "Heuston (West)† / †15 minute walk to Luas/Bus/Intercity" would do as naming.

spacetweek wrote: »

Who is that accepted by? Dublin isn't all that large and the city centre is the place of commerce and leisure. The vast majority of people who get on a bus or train in Dublin are going to/from An Lar. It's just being practical.

Those that travel currently are going to/from the centre. Trying to get others to convert will require offering better connections. Years ago I was forced to get insurance and start driving again by working in Parkwest and living in Maynooth - transport options were either bus to "An Lar" and back out, or the more surreal but sometimes actually faster train to Connolly, Luas to Kylemore, free shuttle bus option.

Eventually I found walking 8km a day from the 66 at Liffey Valley was actually quickest - but that was as a 19 year old with an endless supply of minidiscs for entertainment. I then decided to drive...

Grandeeod

spacetweek wrote: »

Who is that accepted by? Dublin isn't all that large and the city centre is the place of commerce and leisure. The vast majority of people who get on a bus or train in Dublin are going to/from An Lar. It's just being practical.

:rolleyes:

Sorry, but I have to roll the eyes to that one.

An Larism.:D A concept so outdated, but still followed, that it sums up the mindset in this country and particularly Dublin. It's not practical, it's lazy and has influenced generations.

spacetweek

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Platform 10 would surely solve some of the issues - it would mean a switch was possible at Hueston albeit at off peak there may not be a nicely timed connection.

Apropos of nothing, I was in the likes of Gare Du Nord, Bastille and (the monster) Chatelet Les Halle stations earlier in the month and having to walk 1000 or 1200 metres to make a connection between two lines is perfectly acceptable and normal there.

Are you serious? That is a 15-20 minute walk within the station.

n97 mini wrote: »

I think it's been broadly accepted that one of the main problems with public transport in Dublin is the phenomenon known as An Lár. It is absolutely daft that commuters have to go into the city centre to make a connection in general, but doubly daft, inconvenient and a waste of time when that connection leads them back out the line they just came in on. One distant station should be designated an interchange point, served by all trains.

Who is that accepted by? Dublin isn't all that large and the city centre is the place of commerce and leisure. The vast majority of people who get on a bus or train in Dublin are going to/from An Lar. It's just being practical.

cgcsb

With only 2 tracks each way it'd quickly become a bottleneck if you included stopping and non stopping services.

end of the road

savagethegoat wrote: »

Do I take it from that , that you do have a job in public transport?

The time taken to make an additional stop for an InterCity train is likely to be longer than 2 minutes I would hazard and that impacts on the attractiveness of a service already struggling from Motorway competition. To affect an entire train full of people for the sake of a handful of passengers getting another connection into the slower services doesn't seem tenable to me. AN extra stop would also impact the remaining paths. I can quite see that a balance has to be struck between doing everything connection-wise and having the best fast service.

exactly. completely correct. intercity services as i said do make stops to connect with the all stops suburbans as it is, i listed the connection points above.