Happy straight pride day!!

wakka12 wrote: »

If its as a joke then Im okay with it. If people are seriously using it as a way to belittle gay people in a hurtful way then no

Yeah, pretty much.

Sounds like it was a load of bull.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If anyone wants society to know they are normal, they behave normally. If they want society to treat them differently, they behave differently to everyone else as though social norms shouldn't apply to them. The only reason I have any time for these "pride" events is only because I love a good party as much as the next person, but even in the last few years, the standard of pride events in Ireland has been shyte, probably because people are beginning to realise that they don't have a monopoly on the word "minority" any more and they never needed it in the first place.

The opposite of shame is dignity btw, which makes the whole idea of "pride" a misnomer. It's all a bit of a cringefest at this stage, trying to be "out there" just for the sake of it nowadays when people who actually give a shyte about other people are the people who are squarely in the minority.

That's why the concept of "straight pride" is entirely disingenuous, because it reflects appropriately the joke that has become less about dignity and more about claims of "oppression" :rolleyes:

Sorry but thats bull. The only reason gay people began to gain any rights or freedom was when they fought for it, loudly and with force. If it wasnt for that gay men would still be meeting in dark dingy underground places under constant threat of violence ,oppression and arrest. If the lgbt community remained quiet and 'normal' nothing would have ever changed, they'd never be considered normal and their human rights would stay the same as they had.

wakka12 wrote: »

Sorry but thats bull. The only reason gay people began to gain any rights or freedom was when they fought for it, loudly and with force. If it wasnt for that gay men would still be meeting in dark dingy underground places under constant threat of violence ,oppression and arrest. If the lgbt community remained quiet and 'normal' nothing would have ever changed, they'd never be considered normal and their human rights would stay the same as they had.

How does wiggling your arse off the back of a scania in spandex do anything for anyones rights. Makes them look like a bunch of gaudy numptys.

Great Stuff, anything to wind up the pc brigade.

Canard wrote: »

But if 'normal' isn't 'straight', then society does treat them differently. Two guys holding hands and minding their own business will still face a lot of remarks over the course of a day or even a few hours. It's gotten better in recent times but it's still very much something that happens.

Society though is comprised of all sorts of people, so if you're a minority in one way, you're in the majority in another way, and so the concept of claims of being "oppressed" for one single trait become a bit meaningless, because literally anyone in society can now claim that they are a member of an oppressed minority, while ignoring the more obvious fact that they are actually part of a majority in another way.

Just to give your example some more informed context - I'm not a fan of adults engaging in PDA's anyway, so I'd cringe anyway regardless of the people involved. It's alright holding hands when they're children, we call it the buddy system, they don't lose each other so easily. But adults holding hands? They afraid they're going to get lost or what?

Yes, yes, I understand the point of it is displaying their affection for each other in public, but that doesn't make it any less cringeworthy IMO, and the fact that most adults don't engage in PDA's is why it stands out as weird in public, regardless of whether the parties involved are gay, straight, just landed from Mars, whatever...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Society though is comprised of all sorts of people, so if you're a minority in one way, you're in the majority in another way, and so the concept of claims of being "oppressed" for one single trait become a bit meaningless, because literally anyone in society can now claim that they are a member of an oppressed minority, while ignoring the more obvious fact that they are actually part of a majority in another way.

Just to give your example some more informed context - I'm not a fan of adults engaging in PDA's anyway, so I'd cringe anyway regardless of the people involved. It's alright holding hands when they're children, we call it the buddy system, they don't lose each other so easily. But adults holding hands? They afraid they're going to get lost or what?

Yes, yes, I understand the point of it is displaying their affection for each other in public, but that doesn't make it any less cringeworthy IMO, and the fact that most adults don't engage in PDA's is why it stands out as weird in public, regardless of whether the parties involved are gay, straight, just landed from Mars, whatever...

That's true, but it doesn't mean those other 'minorities' are infallible. A few years ago I was with my boyfriend and we had fully grown women pointing us out to their husbands and laughing; women may still need feminism, but it doesn't stop some of them from being homophobic. Black people can be homophobic and gay people can be racist. The point is that some people, no matter what minorities they may be a part of themselves, will still choose to put other people down for things that are different about them, and that's why gay pride exists, and why straight pride doesn't need to.

I mean, I completely agree that PDA is cringeworthy and unnecessary, but the problem is that straight people showing affection in public won't be beaten up for it, whereas a gay couple very well could be, you know?

wakka12 wrote: »

I don't get your point really. Yes most people are part of majorities and minorities in some way or another. I am a white male, I believe I have certain advantages in life that others don't due to being of european descent and native english speaking. But Im gay and feel this disadvantages me in other aspects of life. I don't see whats wrong in trying to change how people perceive that part of me and challenging people who judge me negatively for my sexual orientation trait alone.

Well you wouldn't get my point really, particularly because you're more focused on one single trait that you feel is a disadvantage to you in certain aspects of your life, while ignoring all the ways in which you have an advantage in many ways in life over other people. That's precisely what I mean when I say that you are part of a minority in one way, and part of a majority in so, so many other ways that you take for granted. You equate yourself with a person who is black, yet it doesn't seem to have occurred to you that person might also be gay, or they could be disadvantaged in an infinite number of ways that they could point out, all the while ignoring the fact that they are a part of a majority in society in an infinite number of other ways.

People will generally treat you with respect regardless of whatever particular traits you feel put you at a disadvantage, and it wasn't because of any politics that being gay has become no different to being black in society. It's because most people in society know that there's more to most people than simply the colour of their skin or their sexuality. If they're contributing to society, people will generally place more value in their contribution to society than whether they're black, white or whoever they're knocking boots with. That's how you change people's attitudes towards you, because "challenging" people only makes you look "challenged" in most people's eyes, in my experience.

Holding hands is a society hang up, go to some Muslim country's and its perfectly normal for guys to hold hands and even kiss when they meet and say goodbye.
Something like that is so deeply engrained in a culture that's gay pride trying to change people's perception is nearly a crime against the act itself.
LGBT currently have an exclusive on ss public shows of effection. I get electro girls have it easier in some respects as its normal for them to hold hands etc.

Thinking about it, straight pride needs to happen if the pride is to advance in any meaningful way.
Two men walking down the street holding hands shouldn't make anyone think that's sexual but pride wants your to identify it as a gay act and accept it. It's not a gay act.

No ideas how your going to sort that one, become Muslim?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I do, I completely get what you're saying (and actually you get even more complex than I did, I was trying to keep it simple, because that's about my level of understanding ), but you're right - other people do try and put other people down, but that's people for you, or, those types of people at least, and they come in all shapes, sizes, beliefs, colours and sexualities, and that's why I just don't get the meaning behind Pride any more, because to me it's like a bunch of people who are just doing it out of tradition at this stage, because it's been done for as long as they can remember (because they sure as hell can't remember 100 years before they were born when an event like Pride would have had some validity for it's existence).

But now with intersectionality and identity politics, the whole concept is just a bit out of date, and it looks it IMO. Neither gay pride nor straight pride, black pride nor white pride need exist any more, because all they do is foster division in society rather than any appreciation of diversity, and people are segregating themselves from society (not something I'm actually complaining about, like if they're not interested in contributing to society, they're as well off segregating themselves from society, the fact that they're only a minority won't make one iota of a difference to the vast majority of people who contribute to society) which only enforces, endorses and adds legitimacy to the idea in their own mind that they are a member of an oppressed minority, rather than acknowledging that in order to be acknowledged as a member of society, they don't need to challenge society, they need to challenge themselves and realise that by contributing to society is how to change society and change people's perceptions and attitudes. That's the real challenge IMO - to challenge oneself, rather than challenging everyone else. Challenging everyone else to accept you "just because..." is a lifetime exercise in futility.

Hmmm, I see what you're saying, but (and I don't mean this in any way condescendingly) I think unless you live these experiences yourself, you might not realize how present it still is. The thing is, it's easy to brush off those homophobic, sexist, racist people as "just people", but the reality is that it's people you know, people you work with, people you pass in the street. Just recently while at work someone made a comment about having seen one of our managers with his boyfriend and how it was cute, and another guy started on a rant about how it wasn't cute at all and it wasn't normal -- I'd gotten on with him perfectly fine til then, and I certainly didn't expect that :eek:

It's not even an exercise in getting people to accept you 'just because', but what pride does do is show people (especially, for example, younger and more vulnerable LGBT people) that there are a whole lot more people out there who support you than the few who don't, who can be a lot more vocal and a lot more intimidating, and not just on one day of the year. Every day of the year that isn't pride, that's just what gay people do - we try to live our lives as normally and peacefully as possible, but the reality is that some people just don't like that (Orlando being an extreme case of that). Until each day of the year can be lived normally and without having to look over your shoulder when you want to show any kind of affection to a same sex partner, we'll still need pride, even if just for that annual reminder that society is becoming more accepting.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah but here's the thing, I'm not condoning the guy who went off on a rant, I'd be just as likely to ignore a twat like that, but I would have to wonder for the other person making the point that it was cute - is it supposed to be cute because it's rare for them to see gay people being affectionate in public? They probably don't get out much :pac: Ok I suppose it does depend on where you live too, but generally, like I said before, PDA's generally evoke an "eesh!" with me, and the way I figure it, I'm hardly in a minority, because I'm fairly certain there are many people regardless of their gender or sexual orientation feel the same way. The reason gay people feel it more is because there's less gay people in society anyway, so as rare as PDA's are anyway, they're going to be even more noticeable when it's two people of the same sex. YMMV as far as people's reactions are concerned - some people will think it's cute, some people will think it's disgusting, most people will be more concerned with themselves to actually care all that much apart from an eye-roll (guilty, I will admit ).

Haha point taken , and I'd say there's an element of the rarity there, but to be honest I'd say she was just glad to see that they felt comfortable enough to hold hands in public, because as a gay person it really isn't something I personally feel comfortable doing -- and I have to ask myself if it's entirely down to "lol PDA :rolleyes:" because while that may be part of it, it's not something I'd feel entirely safe doing, which is why it's nice to see people doing it! And as much as I roll my eyes at a lot of PDA, the thing is that a large portion of people who roll their eyes (and more) at same sex PDAs probably wouldn't do the same if it was straight PDA.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're not being condescending at all though, because I understand where you're coming from, and I don't mean to be using whataboutery then either when I say that the only reason I can understand where you're coming from is because I can relate plenty to experiences where I've felt like crap, or where because of one (ok a couple) of things I have going on, and I wouldn't be dismissive of anyone's experiences unless they reacted in what I would feel was a completely disproportionate way, such as the twat above. He could hardly have been that put out by it, little bit of perspective goes a long way.

My experiences would be different to yours, that's all. Like yesterday I was in chronic pain because I have a gammy hip and my knees are shot to shìt, and I'd left my crutch at home, because I hate using it because people stare (also the reason I stopped wearing an eye patch and rarely wear it now, only when I really, really have to!), but I'm always self-conscious about it, and other people comment on it quite a bit, between pirate jokes and just generally being an arsehole, and that's why I say that's people for you, because in the same way as there are always going to be a minority of people who behave like utter arseholes, the vast, vast majority of people in society are alright

Exactly, and knowing that someone can be that put out by something which has no effect on their lives is again something that I would personally feel warrants pride as an event rather than a personal experience.

And that's a fair point about the crutch! Except you can't leave your gayness at home But I've never come across anyone harbouring a deep-seated hatred of people with crutches, and that's sort of the difference. I don't care if someone makes a comment at me anymore because, as you said, I know full well that society as a whole doesn't care, but it's never nice to hear and you really never know if that's all it'll be or if the person will assault you, which is admittedly and thankfully rarer these days but still occurs.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd have to question the idea that they are vulnerable because they are LGBT, or are they vulnerable because they're young? Generally speaking, from an adults perspective, young people are vulnerable. Whether they're LGBTABCDEF or otherwise, is beside the point as far as I'm concerned. I don't know if Pride does any more what you're suggesting it does, particularly nowadays when young people find more support for themselves in the online world as opposed to bothering searching for support in the real world. Pride isn't doing anything for those young people because it isn't getting their attention. They can't relate to it.

I'd say it's a bit of both! I mean when I was 8 or 9 I had no idea that liking other guys was weird and I used to openly talk about it, and then a few years later the idea was instilled in me that it was wrong and strange, so it was a combination of being young and of being LGBT and not really understanding what it even was, because of my age. Young people are indeed vulnerable, but different ones can be vulnerable in different ways, because of course children will generally pick on the children who are different. Not that that's okay, but the problem really emerges when that continues into adulthood, and I feel that the positive message that pride sends helps to combat that, even if indirectly.

A lot of the people who attend pride are actually very young! Makes ya feel old While the internet is nice, it shouldn't be a retreat from daily life, and that's why things like pride are so nice for younger LGBT people. Especially if you're young and unsure of yourself, or you know but don't want to accept it - if you attend with friends / "as an ally", it can be stepping stone to accepting it. I'll admit that when I was younger, I had no idea of the history behind pride, but that's almost a good thing. The less younger LGBT people know about first-hand violence / oppression, the better!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm not sure if it's society becoming "more accepting", or whether it's a sign that society simply doesn't give a damn any more. In order to make "society" care is the only reason for pride any more IMO, as Western society in particular IMO has become so focused on individuals liberties and freedoms that now people have to go out of their way to find ways in which their life is more difficult than the next persons. If that's what Pride has become about, then it's no surprise that eventually society would give us the antithesis to gay pride, or black pride, etc.

That's also definitely a part of it, and it is pretty baffling to think that people in the past could be so caught up with other people's lives. But if you ask any gay person about their experiences growing up, they're all fairly similar, and given the overwhelming presence of heterosexual relationships and expectations, it can be so daunting to feel like you don't conform to that without even knowing why. Pride, being a high profile event, is one of many ways that people can just come to realize that what they're experiencing really isn't much out of the ordinary, and that's probably why a lot of people who are raised with LGBT family friends etc don't even understand the point of it, because it's always been normal to them! Of course, it's not as crucially important as it once was, but if gay people are still being killed in 2016 and if gay pride can help people to come to terms with who they are, then I think it's great And a party never hurt