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Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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Comments

  • #782
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,763 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    The bag annoys me. Did he bring it home at lunch? It seems he did. It seems he walked back with it. 6 days later it turns up minus a few books. Why a few books missing? Had they some evidence on them? It turns up in the afternoon? It will be very interesting if the dna is linked to Cooke.

    The two missing books were both religion ones. At the time it was speculated that he was abducted by some sort of religious cult as aresult of the two missing books (there was a lot of cult hysteria at the time). In hindsight the Garda investigation seems to think this was some sort of diversionary tactic.


  • #783
    Kamili
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The two missing books were both religion ones. At the time it was speculated that he was abducted by some sort of religious cult as aresult of the two missing books (there was a lot of cult hysteria at the time). In hindsight the Garda investigation seems to think this was some sort of diversionary tactic.

    by whom though... that is the question


  • #784
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    In hindsight the Garda investigation seems to think this was some sort of diversionary tactic.
    I can't see why really as back then we weren't as familiar with the concept of paedophilia and the clergy. Whilst some gardai would have been, I don't think that this knowledge would have been common enough to assume that it was trying to pin blame on someone with a collar.

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  • #785
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    I remember hearing a theory years ago. I think it was a by someone on the Radio speaking about many different cases. One theory that stuck with me was that Philip may have kept the books himself. (Although a Geography book was also missing).
    If Philip had enough faith in Religion he may have wanted those books to help him through any bad times.
    That theory may have been more hopeful than accurate though.


  • #786
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    It was diversionary in that Cooke placed the bag back in the location (roughly) of Phillips abduction - this meant that it was always presumed the perpetrator was local to Rathfarnham. (Who in their right mind would return to the scene of the crime to replace some vital evidence?).
    It has always struck me as leaving a trophy - the act of a psychopath who feels himself too clever for the police. By all accounts typical of Cooke (huge ego - felt completely above the law).


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  • #787
    Kamili
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    There is still no proof beyond circumstantial, he said she said, evidence that Cooke was involved though.

    yet...


  • #788
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Kamili wrote: »
    There is still no proof beyond circumstantial, he said she said, evidence that Cooke was involved though.

    yet...

    Witness statement is not circumstantial evidence.


  • #789
    Kamili
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    LorMal wrote: »
    Witness statement is not circumstantial evidence.

    What I am getting at is that there is no physical proof.


  • #790
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Aside from the schoolbag there's very little physical evidence at all. Murder & missing persons cases have been successfully prosecuted in the past based on nothing more than eyewitness statements and circumstantial evidence.


  • #791
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    No - but a credible witness who categorically states she saw Cooke kill the child is a great step forward in the investigation.
    Personally, I have no time for convoluted conspiracy theories involving paedophile rings and Garda collusion. Most Guards are parents like the rest of us - who would do anything to prevent a paedophile murderer from escaping justice.
    I do see merit in a potential link between Cooke and that paedophile priest ( as per Jim Guerin article) - would Philip have trusted a priest enough to get in his car?


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  • #792
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    LorMal wrote: »
    It was may have been diversionary in that Cooke allegedly placed the bag back in the location (roughly) of Phillips presumedabduction - this meant that it was always presumed the perpetrator was local to Rathfarnham. (Who in their right mind would return to the scene of the crime to replace some vital evidence?). (Possibly someone local to the area in panic at realising they were about to be searched.)
    It has always struck me as leaving a trophy - the act of a psychopath who feels himself too clever for the police. By all accounts typical of Cooke (huge ego - felt completely above the law).

    Some suggested changes to base things on what we know. With some speculative answers to one question. I'm not very well up on "trophies" in the psychology of pediophiles or serial killers: do they keep them for themselves?


  • #793
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The two missing books were both religion ones. At the time it was speculated that he was abducted by some sort of religious cult as aresult of the two missing books (there was a lot of cult hysteria at the time). In hindsight the Garda investigation seems to think this was some sort of diversionary tactic.

    Do you know what time of day the bag was found? I'm very curious about it.


  • #794
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    LorMal wrote: »
    Personally, I have no time for convoluted conspiracy theories involving paedophile rings and Garda collusion.

    Most Guards are parents like the rest of us - who would do anything to prevent a paedophile murderer from escaping justice.

    Without giving credence to the conspiracy theory, the idea that guards would do anything to prevent a paedophile from escaping justice is a relatively modern day concept.

    In practice the opposite did occur. Not always, but it has happened.

    And if it didn't actively happen, it was common to turn a blind eye to clerical "weaknesses" whilst the cleric was held in otherwise high esteem.

    I recall a lay teacher jokingly advising against getting locked in a room with a named cleric.

    The cleric was convicted 10-12 years later.


  • #795
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Some suggested changes to base things on what we know. With some speculative answers to one question. I'm not very well up on "trophies" in the psychology of pediophiles or serial killers: do they keep them for themselves?

    I would prefer if you don't amend my posts.

    Re trophy - The writing of letters to the press and/or the deliberate leaving of clues behind are in line with narcissistic psychotic behaviour. Examples include unibomber, zodiac killer, Son of Sam, BTK Denis Rader, Jack the Ripper (disputed).
    He might have got his kicks from teasing the police in this way. Pure speculation on my part - but it is very weird behaviour and difficult to explain.


  • #796
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Going Forward wrote: »
    Without giving credence to the conspiracy theory, the idea that guards would do anything to prevent a paedophile from escaping justice is a relatively modern day concept.

    In practice the opposite did occur. Not always, but it has happened.

    And if it didn't actively happen, it was common to turn a blind eye to clerical "weaknesses" whilst the cleric was held in otherwise high esteem.

    I recall a lay teacher jokingly advising against getting locked in a room with a named cleric.

    The cleric was convicted 10-12 years later.

    But you are giving it credence. Are you suggesting the police deliberately did not pursue Cooke in order to cover up the murder? I do not believe that for one second.


  • #797
    Stasi 2.0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭Stasi 2.0


    Esel wrote: »
    Whether you doubt it or not, it happened. .

    If you say so buddy ?


  • #798
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Do you know what time of day the bag was found? I'm very curious about it.

    It was found in the evening time IIRC.
    It had been raining all that day and the bag was bone dry.
    http://buzz.ie/appeal-for-people-who-left-philip-cairns-schoolbag-in-laneway-to-come-forward-30-years-later/


  • #799
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    LorMal wrote: »
    But you are giving it credence. Are you suggesting the police deliberately did not pursue Cooke in order to cover up the murder? I do not believe that for one second.

    Are you familiar with the Mary Boyle case? The Gardaí are more than capable of it.


  • #800
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Allyall wrote: »
    It was found in the evening time IIRC.
    It had been raining all that day and the bag was bone dry.
    http://buzz.ie/appeal-for-people-who-left-philip-cairns-schoolbag-in-laneway-to-come-forward-30-years-later/

    Can't see time mentioned in that.


  • #801
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The two missing books were both religion ones. At the time it was speculated that he was abducted by some sort of religious cult as aresult of the two missing books (there was a lot of cult hysteria at the time). In hindsight the Garda investigation seems to think this was some sort of diversionary tactic.

    Was there a geography book as well?


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  • #802
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    LorMal wrote: »
    But you are giving it credence. Are you suggesting the police deliberately did not pursue Cooke in order to cover up the murder? I do not believe that for one second.

    My point was to show how abuse was not handled then as we expect it to be handled now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/26/ireland-church-sex-abuse

    I can't tell you there was a conspiracy in this case but I can tell you it was possible and did occur in clerical abuse cases.


  • #803
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Dolbert wrote: »
    Are you familiar with the Mary Boyle case? The Gardaí are more than capable of it.

    Yes I know the case - I take your point. Its another extraordinary case - very obvious there is something wrong there.


  • #804
    Kamili
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    LorMal wrote: »
    I would prefer if you don't amend my posts.

    the man hasn't been proven to have been involved, so I have to agree with the suggested post amendments. He's only a suspect.

    There are allegations against him, an I am absolutely not defending what he did in any way. Until he has been proven without doubt that he is involved statements like that shouldn't be made.

    I'm not sticking up for Cooke in any way, I'm just stating that we still don't know the full story.


  • #805
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Going Forward wrote: »
    My point was to show how abuse was not handled then as we expect it to be handled now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/26/ireland-church-sex-abuse

    I can't tell you there was a conspiracy in this case but I can tell you it was possible and did occur in clerical abuse cases.

    I am fully aware of the sycophantic deference paid to the Catholic Church at the time - having suffered through that myself.
    I can see how this might cause (and did cause) paedophile priests to get away with sexual abuse - but I don't understand your point in relation to this case?


  • #806
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Kamili wrote: »
    the man hasn't been proven to have been involved, so I have to agree with the suggested post amendments. He's only a suspect.

    There are allegations against him, an I am absolutely not defending what he did in any way. Until he has been proven without doubt that he is involved statements like that shouldn't be made.

    I'm not sticking up for Cooke in any way, I'm just stating that we still don't know the full story.

    I know that of course. I was making the point that returning the school bag to the scene of the abduction - a week after the event - is very peculiar and bizarre behaviour. However, it may be possibly explained as the behaviour of a narcissistic personality who enjoys toying with the Guards - deliberately interfering with the investigation.
    The reason I said that this is in line with Cooke's personality is based on (1) his bizarre behaviour going live on radio to publicly condemn those accusing him of child molestation during the Radio Dublin mutiny (2) his interference in other cases when tracking police radios and arriving on the scene before the police arrived - even chasing 'suspects' himself.

    Of course I could be totally wrong.


  • #807
    Kamili
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    We don't have any proof that he did return the bag, someone else admitted to leaving it there anyway so it wasn't Cooke that physically left it there.

    There is so much misinformation coming out. In an RTE news at 1 report Gardai seem to have back tracked and said Cooke didn't necessarily kill him but that he knew him, and this connection is what is of big interest to them. So they are investigating this connection further.

    In other reports its said Cooke admitted, on his deathbed, that he knew of Cairns not he knew Cairns.
    Big difference.

    So they are investigating if there is a link and maybe if there is they need to dig land the belongs or belonged to Cooke.


  • #808
    Stasi 2.0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 295 ✭✭Stasi 2.0


    Kamili wrote: »
    So they are investigating if there is a link and maybe if there is they need to dig land the belongs or belonged to Cooke.

    If and when they find these buried containers it would be interesting to see how much stolen property they contain.


  • #809
    Allyall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,381 ✭✭✭✭Allyall


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Can't see time mentioned in that.
    Was there a geography book as well?

    It was found at approximately 7:45PM.
    From here:
    Six days after Philip disappeared, two 18 year old girls (Orla O’Carroll & Catherine Hassett) found Philip’s schoolbag in a laneway leading from Ann Devlin Road to Ann Devlin Drive. It was about 7.45 in the evening. Catherine Hassett said she remembered passing through the laneway the previous day and not seeing anything. The bag was in plain sight when discovered. Also, although the strap was a bit wet, the main body of the bag was dry with its contents in tact, despite there having been rain during the 6 days since Philip’s disappearance.
    Strangely, when the bag was discovered, some of Philip’s books were missing; a geography book and two religious text books. A search at home confirmed they weren’t there either. Other than no other trace of Philip was ever found.


  • #810
    Kamili
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    Stasi 2.0 wrote: »
    If and when they find these buried containers it would be interesting to see how much stolen property they contain.

    big if again! They could have been dug up and removed already.

    I for one wouldn't sell a piece of land knowing I had a container buried on it, which seems to be the case. Cooke sold the piece of land that allegedly held the containers several years ago, and the new landowner has been cleared of any connection to the case.


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  • #811
    Marlie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5 ✭Marlie


    nacho libre wrote: »
    This is what i've been getting at in earlier posts. There seems to be striking parallels between how Saville and Cooke operated seemingly above the law.
    I am beginning to think the irish independents purpose here is as a useful idiot for some of his associates.

    As much as I'm happy that the Philip Cairns case is back in the news I've been wondering if the Indo is helpfully taking the spotlight off the Mary Boyle case which has also been aired recently.


This discussion has been closed.
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