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Season 6 Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" - "Book readers"

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Comments

  • #212
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Jelle1880 wrote: »
    I couldn't help but think the same, especially with that evil smile she had when she left him to be eaten.

    That's not the Sansa we know, this is a cold, vengeful woman.

    She was quite ready to push Joffrey off a ledge?


    The Sansa we knew was an idiot blindly putting her faith and trust into anyone. What were people expecting her to do? Give Ramsey a trial?


  • #213
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Blackfish died last week and people called it lazy storytelling
    No pleasing everyone


  • #214
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Daith wrote: »
    She was quite ready to push Joffrey off a ledge?


    The Sansa we knew was an idiot blindly putting her faith and trust into anyone. What were people expecting her to do? Give Ramsey a trial?

    The Stark way is "They who carry the sentence must swing the sword"
    Sansa feeding someone alive to dogs is not the Stark way


  • #215
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    The Stark way is "They who carry the sentence must swing the sword"
    Sansa feeding someone alive to dogs is not the Stark way

    The Stark way got her father, mother and brothers killed.


  • #216
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    FURET wrote: »
    It makes no logical sense. At all.

    The dogs were in their cages, gates latched.

    Jon Snow et all tied Ramsay to a chair and put him in the kennels.

    The kennel master is sent in to quietly shush the dogs and undo each latch. Maybe throw a tiny morsel to the back of each cage to occupy each dog while he is unlatching the gate.

    He leaves, Ramsay is unconscious, the dogs are not that interested in him because he is silent and no smell of fear etc...

    Sansa comes along, he wakes up, they start talking, the dogs become interested because there is talking, they come forward, they smell Ramsays fear, they eat him.

    It seems totally plausible to me.
    FURET wrote: »
    It is never established that the Night King is a legendary figure. It is established that Old Nan's stories are considered to be just stories - which is one reason why Davos and Jon should have been laughed out of the Mormont's Keep forthwith. At the very least, when Davos mentioned the Night King's name, Lyanna should have said "who? Who is that exactly?"

    Didnt Lord Commander Mormont send ravens to everyone telling them he needed more men for the Nights Watch because of the White Walkers?


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  • #217
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    The Stark way is "They who carry the sentence must swing the sword"
    Sansa feeding someone alive to dogs is not the Stark way

    Aye - it was her last act as Lady Bolton.


  • #218
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Sansa swung the sword. The sword in this case being a pack of dogs.


  • #219
    stesaurus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stesaurus


    It's already been mentioned but wow that crush scene with Jon was just so claustrophobic. I had to look away as I could feel panic seeping in. That's not really something I've ever seen before in a battle on tv/film.


  • #220
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,073 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Daith wrote: »
    The Stark way got her father, mother and brothers killed.

    oh I'm not arguing - im just pointing out her change in character


  • #221
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    oh I'm not arguing - im just pointing out her change in character

    Which is to be expected after what's she's being through.

    She escaped Kings Landing because two people poisoned the King at his wedding. She escaped Winterfell because Theon pushed someone to her death.

    For me one of the themes is how the old ways (guest rights, honour, etc) are being done away with and only those that adapt will survive. I think Sansa is a good example of that.


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  • #222
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »
    First of all I really enjoyed the episode, it was epic television. Ramsey dying was bittersweet though. On one hand he deserved it and it was always going to happen, but on the other hand he was the best character in the history of the show IMO.

    The thing is though the show has become what always separated it from other shows, predictable. Nobody good is dying anymore apart from some side characters. Jon should have died a dozen times last night, and it would have been fitting for the great Bolton Bastard to have killed him before Sansa got her wish and set his hounds on him.

    They can't really kill any good major characters off at the rate they used to. There are obvious characters that have plot armour, who can't be killed off without making the entire show stupid or leaving huge plot holes and arcs with unsatisfactory endings.

    Jon dying again last night would have been dumb. Jon will survive at least until we learn who his parents are, and he'll probably still be standing when the show ends.

    You can probably go through all the major characters at this point and have a pretty good idea who'll die and who'll live. That's not the writers fault, or the show in general, it's just the nature of the beast. We've seen six seasons, we've read the books and it has to come to a satisfactory end eventually.


  • #223
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    I agree that the show is more predictable now but I disagree that what makes it predictable is that major characters survive. I think it's predictable in that the producers are just going for whats cool or bad ass. What would have been perfectly unpredictable to me would have been if Jon had saved Rickon with Ramsey making a "thats disappointing" remark or even had Ramsey been killed by some randomer in the battle. To be cool Ramsey has to die in the most horrendous fashion, heroes have to come close to death only to be saved at the last minute and so on.


  • #224
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,061 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ramsay had to die like he did to build the Sansa character further IMO.

    She has shown a sterner side this season but it was all talk, the final scene showed us she can be cold and ruthless now.


  • #225
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    s.welstead wrote: »
    It's already been mentioned but wow that crush scene with Jon was just so claustrophobic. I had to look away as I could feel panic seeping in. That's not really something I've ever seen before in a battle on tv/film.

    Yeah great dose of realism.


  • #226
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm just wondering should the next season of GoT be in 2018 to allow GRRM to publish the next book?


  • #227
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm just wondering should the next season of GoT be in 2018 to allow GRRM to publish the next book?

    No.

    If we were waiting for him it would be 2025 before the final season at the earliest.

    He knows what's going to happen. He's given the writers all the main plot points and direction. Besides, the books and show have diverged that much, I doubt a book release would have that much bearing on the the show.


  • #228
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    FURET wrote: »
    Does it matter that we never saw who opened the kennel doors? Yes. Yes it does matter. Ramsey was sitting there for how long with the kennel doors wide open. And nothing happened. And then purely for dramatic effect, the hounds slowly emerge just when Sansa would want them to. This makes no logical sense. If it made logical sense, no one would mind that we never saw the doors being opened.

    A lot of people, especially on that silly thronecast show (usually just watch it for the preview of next week's episode), seemed to think that when Jon was pummelling Ramsay and looked up to Sansa and stopped, that this shows Sansa being in control. "Let me have a go at him" seems to be a common interpretation of this.

    Then we are shown her feeding him to the dogs and it ostensibly ties in.

    I have a different theory about it though. Maybe when Jon looked up he thought that even the new emotionless Sansa was appalled by the sheer violence of beating someone to death. He realised that he was a stark and the correct way to kill Ramsay was to behead him in public with the greatsword. Hence he locked Ramsay away in a cellar or dungeon. Sansa then asks him "where did you put him?" or words to that effect.

    So then, instead of what Jon thought would happen i.e. the honourable Stark way, she then has him brutally eaten alive by the dogs. I thought that this would lead to conflict between her and Jon (which ties in with the fact that they haven't yet decided who will be the new stark of winterfell).

    However, the point about who let the dogs in is interesting. We saw that Wylla was led into the kennels before being savaged which was a different room to the dungeon that Ramsay was in. So it is unlikely that the dogs just happened to be beside the dungeon cell.

    If the difference in the sense of honour and duty between Jon and Sansa is to be important, then the question of who let the dogs in may well be a plot point and of interest as regards who supports which stark.

    However, I suspect that Ramsay's death in this manner was nothing more than an audience pleaser so that people can feel that one of the more evil villains in the show got his just deserts.


  • #229
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Is it just me or was the writing much tighter when they were still tied into the straitjacket of the books that were already published?

    Seems like once they went into the unpublished territory they just went back to standard TV plots.


  • #230
    Fian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,199 ✭✭✭Fian


    lawlolawl wrote: »
    That was a really inconsistent bit.

    They {insert - the northern lords} actually fought to the last man despite Ramsay brutally murdering Rickon and then having his archers indiscriminately fire at both his own troops and Jons.

    Did they fight out of loyalty though? Is it not that the other houses troops were unable to disengage and died from the arrows and Jon's army before the Bolton troops formed up their shieldwall to finish off Jon's army.

    The northern lords had no real chance to disengage once they were committed and the arrows started falling on them. Basically Ramsay betrayed them. I would expect that this will be the narrative in the Books.

    Really interesting to see the depiction of the effectiveness of a shieldwall against "individual" fighters and also to see the impact of a flanking cavalry charge into it - would have been very different if those horses were asked to charge into the forest of spears coming out the front of the shieldwall.


  • #231
    PetKing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭PetKing


    ZeitgeistGlee wrote:
    Going to go against the grain here, whole thing was a bit meh for me. Far too much convenience and set-up just for these big pay-off scenes that make no sense within universe. There's no subtlety or surprise anymore, everything is so horrendously telegraphed you can see it coming a mile away.

    You should get used to it from here on out. The story in the grand scheme of things is teaching a point where, the bad guys will die, and the serious end game battles happen. If WoW had bwen released already, we'd be seeing the same. That or Martin will kill off all the good characters and the bad guys win out, wouldn't that be exciting. ;)
    Daith wrote:
    I have no faith whatsoever that show writers could every come up with a Red Wedding scenario by themselves.

    You do them a disservice, the way they handled clearing up Martins dreary wandering writing style, and bringing characters on the periphery back to the forefront, as well as removing crap characters has been very well done.

    stankratz wrote:
    Even if we leave Dorne aside, the show has had a few creative blunders of its own over the years when they went off book, guilty without doubt. However, some of the criticism of the show here seems to be based on the false fact that the books are completely flawless and GRRM never once had a blunder or five himself.

    100% agree, the books are dreadfully dull and he needlessly extended the story, over analysing the I importance of the characters. He's a fairly dreadful writer IMO, and I mich prefer the show over the books, of only for showing how he could have cut the crap out.


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  • #232
    jcd5971
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭jcd5971


    Rather than bad writing, I don't think that the arrival of the Vale was a last second riders of rohan type scene at all.

    I believe it's the evolution of sansa she (and little finger in her ear) in my opinion held back the cavalry charge until she knew it would rout the Bolton force.

    She tried to warn Jon he would be played by ramsay, she knew rickon was doomed and would be used as bait.

    She coldly decided that rickon was dead, and to use Jon as a vanguard.

    She realised everyone's character and knew Jon was like ned, driven by honour, she also knew that if she rocked.up with the Vale knights early ramsay would not even fight he would let them seige the castle knowing they had no food or shelter for a protracted seige.

    I think it's no accident that the Vale charge was held of until ramsay sent in his reserve force to finish Jon and the wildlings.

    Even ramsay seemed to acknowledge this when he looked to her before turning for winterfell, and subsequently in the cell when he tells her he is a part of her now.


  • #233
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,733 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Won't be long now :D

    389450.jpg


  • #234
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    However, the point about who let the dogs in is interesting. We saw that Wylla was led into the kennels before being savaged which was a different room to the dungeon that Ramsay was in. So it is unlikely that the dogs just happened to be beside the dungeon cell.

    It was the same place.

    It was also where Miranda led Sansa to see Reek. We have seen that location a number of times in Winterfell.


  • #235
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »
    Going to go against the grain here, whole thing was a bit meh for me. Far too much convenience and set-up just for these big pay-off scenes that make no sense within universe. There's no subtlety or surprise anymore, everything is so horrendously telegraphed you can see it coming a mile away.

    What makes GoT so compulsively watchable for me is the quality of the production.

    We all knew that LF was going to ride in and save the day.

    We all knew that Ramsey would get his comeuppance.

    It has lost it's power to shock but it doesn't matter a jot to me because its so well done.

    When the horn sounded the hair on my neck stood up.

    When Jon was pummeling Ramsey I was nearly leaping out of my chair as if I was there with him.

    I'm a 37 year old man and watching last night reminded me of being a young fella and watching pro wrestling and waiting for Stone Colds music to hit.

    You knew it was coming but you got teased just enough to think that maybe it won't then BOOM, you get the pay off.

    There is nothing in visual media as satisfying.

    :D


  • #236
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Is Sansa the Lady of House Bolton now? Or at least does she have control of the Dreadfort if we assume House Bolton is gone.


  • #237
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Daith wrote: »
    Is Sansa the Lady of House Bolton now? Or at least does she have control of the Dreadfort if we assume House Bolton is gone.

    Yes she is.


  • #238
    crisco10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,341 ✭✭✭crisco10


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Yes she is.

    So Sansa has inherited House Bolton, is "tied" to Arryn, and is originally a Stark. Gives her quite an empire. Playing her own Game of Thrones there.


  • #239
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,548 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Well, tbh, we don't know. Sansa has completely squandered her military strength and with Rickon dead, House Stark is no more. She only has as much control as Littlefinger allows her at this point.


  • #240
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,059 ✭✭✭conorhal


    crisco10 wrote: »
    So Sansa has inherited House Bolton, is "tied" to Arryn, and is originally a Stark. Gives her quite an empire. Playing her own Game of Thrones there.

    She's a bit light on armed forces to defend it though, which I suspect is where Littlefinger will be extracting his price for supporting her, either demanding she marries the mummy's boy or perhaps has to tug his littlefinger...


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  • #241
    G.Ames
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 ✭G.Ames


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Well, tbh, we don't know. Sansa has completely squandered her military strength and with Rickon dead, House Stark is no more. She only has as much control as Littlefinger allows her at this point.

    what about Bran? He's Eddards son. So one offspring from the starks is still alive.


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