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Reframing feminism ** mod warning posts 1 and 50 **

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  • #212
    BejayusBejayus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 ✭BejayusBejayus


    quotes that's something i would definitely would back especially in our government

    ''the only fear is'

    the type off people who are going to start overly policing to suit an agenda they have when in government

    or are they going to be normal rational folk


  • #213
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Back to feminism, we have been talking about quotas along time, does anyone have any more ideas about rebranding it, moving forward with it?


  • #214
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Back to feminism, we have been talking about quotas along time, does anyone have any more ideas about rebranding it, moving forward with it?

    Can we not go back just yet, considering you made a claim above that I said something that I didn't ?


  • #215
    BejayusBejayus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 ✭BejayusBejayus


    But i personally would like the type off women who would go onto any feminist site read for half an hour and have the wits about them to know it's pure ****e ,they just read

    This is the type off leader we need

    equality for all

    Think outside the box


  • #216
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Jack :) you said you were happy with an overwhelming majority of men in government yes? And always has been? Do you see any discrimination in this?

    If you say I am discriminating, I can also say you are discriminating . So the facts are not in your favour.

    Why does the gender of the elected matter?


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  • #217
    BejayusBejayus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 ✭BejayusBejayus


    Female versions off Michael D. Higgins would be perfect but lets be honest Governments attract narcissist and inverted narcissist


  • #218
    Pepe LeFrits
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Being happy with an 80:20 government in your favour is discrimination.
    Not necessarily.

    Politics is a fairly unusual case in that it’s less based on merit and more on how well you can manipulate the political machinery (which a cynic might argue is a matter of merit, but I wouldn’t). However if political parties were actively discriminating against women, you’d think that you’d see much higher percentage of women running as independents, but you don’t. IIRC the percentage running as independents in the last election was substantially lower.

    When political parties are actively trying to find women to run and struggle to do so, it points towards women choosing not to run for election IMO. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other factors that discourage women from choosing to seeking office, but it isn’t discrimination. The central idea behind gender quotas in politics isn’t getting rid of discrimination (quotas by definition are discrimination), but in my opinion it is getting rid of the perceived notion that politics isn’t for women, by providing positive role models.

    I had a conversation on quotas recently with a self-described feminist that I admire greatly: she said she was in favour of gender quotas in politics but admitted that (paraphrasing) we’d probably have to put up with a generation of ****e, incompetent female politicians like <names redacted!> before the fruits of the quotas can be had. I thought: yeah, I could see that. Kids learn from what they see, so if girls see female ministers, or a female Taoiseach, maybe when they’re older, a career in politics will seem totally normal to them.

    But another thought occurred to me: this is someone I look up to a lot - hypothetically, what would I be thinking now if I was young and female? Well, I might be thinking, "yeah, I want to go out and become part of that next generation", or I might be thinking, "Crikey, I don’t want people like my mentor here talking about how I’m an incompetent hospital-pass only there 'cos I'm a woman. Think I'll pass on politics."

    It could go either way, or both. I don't think anyone can really say with any authority on that. Thus I’m relatively ambivalent, mostly against quotas on the grounds that you shouldn’t write discrimination into law unless you’ve damn good reason.


  • #219
    bee06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,514 ✭✭✭bee06


    sullivlo wrote: »
    I find them offensive. I would rather get places on merit rather than get special treatment because I am female. The quotas, to me, suggest that I'm not good enough to make it without the extra help.

    This, I would be beyond raging if it was the case that I was hired because they needed more women rather than being the best person for the job.


  • #220
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    bee06 wrote: »
    This, I would be beyond raging if it was the case that I was hired because they needed more women rather than being the best person for the job.

    sullivio and bee06 have my vote! :)

    Wonder how that would affect the 80:20 quoted earlier ? It'd up the female numbers but not the agenda supporters; so would it be viewed as 80:20 or not, I wonder ?


  • #221
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    In your opinion.

    You haven't refuted it, though. And it seems like your attempts to refute involve misrepresentation (where you said I said something that I didn't, and haven't come back to retract it, btw) and/or digging up history of what other long-dead men did or the assumption that only women can represent women.


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  • #222
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    What brings you here, to a discussion about feminism, out of interest?

    As I said before, I'm a feminist and Faiths OP intrigued me. I waited a few pages to see if it would be a good discussion and waited until after a MOD post so I could be sure. Last thing I wanted was a big to do with name calling going on.


  • #223
    Icemancometh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 873 ✭✭✭Icemancometh


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    In your opinion.

    Not to speak for someone else, but they are authoritarian by definition.


  • #224
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    <SNIP>

    They have been shown by countless studies to reduce discrimination worldwide.

    Why is every male on this board, bar one that I have seen, so vehemently opposed to gender quotas?

    Loss of power?


  • #225
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Icemancometh wrote: »
    Not to speak for someone else, but they are authoritarian by definition.

    I dispute the regressive part. Countries with them are thriving.


  • #226
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    They have been shown by countless studies to reduce discrimination worldwide.

    Why is every male on this board, bar one that I have seen, so vehemently opposed to gender quotas?

    Loss of power?

    Again assuming / implying an agenda. :rolleyes:

    Simple fact : "positive" discrimination still includes the term discrimination.

    The agenda part of your posts has been well debunked because

    1) no-one is restricting the number of women (however you're happy to restrict the number of men)
    2) I myself have posted that one of my best representatives has been Catherine Murphy
    3) You left out at least 2 women who 100% agree with us so that your contrived "divide" appeared more convincing

    And - at the risk of repeating myself - anything you've posted relies on very strange thinking re the relevance of history, etc.


  • #227
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    They have been shown by countless studies to reduce discrimination worldwide.

    Why is every male on this board, bar one that I have seen, so vehemently opposed to gender quotas?

    Loss of power?

    What power though? Do we not all have the same rights?

    Opposition to gender quotas is not about a loss of power, because there is no power to loose. The opposition is because most people want to see the best person being elected.


  • #228
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    mzungu wrote:
    What power though? Do we not all have the same rights?

    Formal legal rights do not equate to substantive effective power.


  • #229
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    mzungu wrote: »
    What power though? Do we not all have the same rights?

    I just don't understand that when I was told by men on here that some men said that they were experiencing discrimination in the primary school sector, my first thought was: of course there should be equality. Nobody should be discriminated against.

    And yet I have seen one sole man, out of hundreds on here, (not just this thread), who said: 'I welcome more women in politics, if women have never reached over 20% in this country, there's more going on than them simply not wanting to enter'.

    Every other man I have seen is vehemently opposed to it. Why?


  • #230
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #231
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I just don't understand that when I was told by men on here that some men said that they were experiencing discrimination in the primary school sector, my first thought was: of course there should be equality. Nobody should be discriminated against.

    And yet I have seen one sole man, out of hundreds on here, (not just this thread), who said: 'I welcome more women in politics, if women have never reached over 20% in this country, there's more going on than them simply not wanting to enter'.

    Every other man I have seen is vehemently opposed to it. Why?

    Opposed to what, exactly ?

    More women in politics - no
    Artificially forcing more women into politics - absolutely

    You don't seem to want to acknowledge the difference and you misrepresented me earlier, maybe even due to the inability, rather than refusal, to see the facts.


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  • #232
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    How did you decide which countries to pick there out of roughly 128 countries?


  • #233
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    That's actually a very apt illustration of the point that formal legal rights do not equate to substantive effective power.


  • #234
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    That's actually a very apt illustration of the point that formal legal rights do not equate to substantive effective power.

    I've a right to vote, but my preferences and thinking have "no substantive effective power".

    Who can I blame ?


  • #235
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Formal legal rights do not equate to substantive effective power.

    As citizens though. What power does the average man on the street have that the average woman on the street does not?


  • #236
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    mzungu wrote: »
    As citizens though. What power does the average man on the street have that the average woman on the street does not?

    Representation in government.


  • #237
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,483 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Representation in government.

    So men can't represent women? Does this mean that I should only vote for male candidates and that women should only vote for female candidates?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #238
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    mzungu wrote:
    As citizens though. What power does the average man on the street have that the average woman on the street does not?

    Well, I was thinking more on the aggregate than the individual level, but many of the issues with regard to casual sexism that can be seen in the 'Why I need feminism' thread might be a starting point for an answer.

    And also in the 'Stanford' thread.

    And earning power has been discussed extensively in this thread.

    And then there are the links I posted earlier on the political science research on the issue of quotas themselves.

    But each individual is different, and I'm actually not sure what the 'average man or woman on the street' might look like, depending on age, class, ethnicity etc.


  • #239
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Let's look at Sweden as a study. Sweden is the country in Europe with the highest level of female politicians.

    Sweden is seen as one of the most family friendly countries in Europe.
    Sweden allows parents to share parental leave for 16 months.

    Having women represented in government benefits all.


  • #240
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    So men can't represent women? Does this mean that I should only vote for male candidates and that women should only vote for female candidates?

    It means, as the gender quota does: that parties put up a (paltry) minimum of 30% female candidates.

    You vote for whoever you want.

    I'm amazed that some men are finding it hard to give way to even this inch of power.

    No wonder we had to get s quota in!


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  • #241
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Let's look at Sweden as a study. Sweden is the country in Europe with the highest level of female politicians.

    Sweden is seen as one of the most family friendly countries in Europe.
    Sweden allows parents to share parental leave for 16 months.

    Having women represented in government benefits all.

    Who suggested anything to the contrary ?

    Who's to say that Swedish politicians - including men - haven't more cop-on in general ?

    Can someone answer these because I think my questions are being ignored?


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