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Reframing feminism ** mod warning posts 1 and 50 **

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  • #182
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Pepe LeFrits wrote: »
    Nobody else offered up unconditional support for quotas as far as I'm aware.

    I would call that a gas lighting tactic.

    Someone says 'but we are being discriminated against in another area, would you support quotas there?

    Me: of course, quotas should be used against all discrimination.

    Someone else: That's a dangerous viewpoint.

    Receive the support, discredit it.

    Let's stay on topic.


  • #183
    Pepe LeFrits
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 15,001 ✭✭✭✭Pepe LeFrits


    Had to google gas lighting. I think you're being a little paranoid. I disagree with your enthusiastic embrace of quotas; I'm not out to get you.


  • #184
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,035 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I would call that a gas lighting tactic.

    THIS! This is what bloody infuriates me so damn much in these discussions. The accusations of all kinds of nonsense.

    12 months ago people I knew were thanking me so much for the things I wrote and said during the referendum, skipping work to go to radio shows and loads more. These days, a lot of those very same people, are calling me a sexist, a homophobe (the son of a gay woman), a racist, accusing me of gaslighting and negging for the simple reason I do not agree with everything they say.

    When you resort to making comments or accusations like that you are effectively shutting down all debate and discussion. It adds nothing.


  • #185
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #186
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    meeeeh wrote: »
    That's fair enough but how long are you prepared to wait for more women having input in the dail debates on childcare, abortion, female body autonomy...

    What makes you think men don't support all 3 ? :confused:

    Why are the current women - and men - not good enough to debate their points ?

    Why do we need "more" instead of "better" ?

    And - since we're in favour of having any number, why do you phrase things as if we're happy with the current number ?

    I'm not happy with the amount of money I get; I'm not going to support robbing a bank or ripping someone off to get more. You're condoning a method and - because we don't condone it - are making it seem like we're against the result.


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  • #187
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    But it's laughable that you think I want to punish men?!

    Well in support of your argument you brought up stuff that had nothing to do with me, so you're happy to sling mud in my direction as if I had supported historic stuff.
    My point is: in an organisation that has historically been misogynistic, and still has a stranglehold of male politicians-for the benefit of all society, gender quotas need to be introduced.

    Your opinion. I disagree.
    You are around now, and female politicians are saying and gave been saying that they are being discriminated against at local level.

    They're politicians. Politicians lie. Especially if it makes the difference between getting nominated and not.
    You are around now.

    I am. And I'm against discrimination. Which includes "positive" discrimination.

    You, apparently, are not.


  • #188
    BejayusBejayus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 ✭BejayusBejayus


    As a man I personally don't think there is not much difference between ''men and women'' if you go beyond our Sex Differences Driven By Impulse
    as some great Indian guru's say ''The enlightened ones are neither ''male or female''

    For me i think ....some people just seem to me to be susceptible to bull****

    like “The Cool Girl” passage by Gillian Flynn

    when you read that do you not see that she is projecting and trying to pigeonhole a certain type of women that she doesn't agree with and sneakily tries to shame them publicly

    since we are on the topic off feminism I i find that there is a lot off predominant feminists that do this **** in a highly covert way ,sometimes after reading a couple off their article's it becomes obvious

    women have issues that's for sure and are discriminate against, but you have the wrong people fighting for your cause ,They do more damage than good and they will always alienate most men ...and maybe that's what they want


  • #189
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,837 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    I can't say I disagree with her point of view, on either count against Hillary specifically. Monica was, and still is, a narcissistic loony tune, and I can understand why she would be tired of all the whiny women bringing sexual assault allegations against high ranking politicians. I wouldn't see that as in any way in conflict with her statement that she supports women who are the victims of sexual assault and harassment. I wouldn't support anyone making a media circus out of allegations of sexual assault and harassment either.

    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    The intent was to cut down on people's dependency on welfare. It's an initiative I would support in this country too in the long-term interests of women and children. We are unlikely ever to have such a system in place though with one of the most generous welfare systems in Europe, and the least initiatives to make living on welfare an unattractive prospect.


  • #190
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,672 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    On the issue of quotas, honestly do women not actually find them a bit offensive? Basically what quotas are saying is "here's an extra bit of help ladies because you won't make it if you have to compete properly with the men" Quotas are sexist and i have no time for anyone who pushes them, if your in favor of picking people for any job or position based on their gender you are sexist and not for equality.


  • #191
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    What makes you think men don't support all 3 ? :confused:

    Why are the current women - and men - not good enough to debate their points ?

    Why do we need "more" instead of "better" ?

    And - since we're in favour of having any number, why do you phrase things as if we're happy with the current
    Your experiences are not the same as mine. You can support all three but you might not be even invested enough to do anything about it. It's not about better (considering the notion that the best candidate always wins is frankly deluded) it's about being representative.

    I am finished debating quotas. They are dominant mechanism in Europe, Ireland is fairly late to the party but in couple of years it will be forgotten that there even was an issue around quotas.

    Edit: just to explain some who don't exactly understand how elections work. Electoral quotas in Ireland don't mean you are guaranteed position, you are just given chance to compete.


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  • #192
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    THIS! This is what bloody infuriates me so damn much in these discussions. The accusations of all kinds of nonsense.

    12 months ago people I knew were thanking me so much for the things I wrote and said during the referendum, skipping work to go to radio shows and loads more. These days, a lot of those very same people, are calling me a sexist, a homophobe (the son of a gay woman), a racist, accusing me of gaslighting and negging for the simple reason I do not agree with everything they say.

    When you resort to making comments or accusations like that you are effectively shutting down all debate and discussion. It adds nothing.

    What brings you here, to a discussion about feminism, out of interest?


  • #193
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    Well in support of your argument you brought up stuff that had nothing to do with me, so you're happy to sling mud in my direction as if I had supported historic stuff.



    Your opinion. I disagree.



    They're politicians. Politicians lie. Especially if it makes the difference between getting nominated and not.



    I am. And I'm against discrimination. Which includes "positive" discrimination.

    You, apparently, are not.

    Being happy with an 80:20 government in your favour is discrimination.

    Gender quotas were brought in to address discrimination in parties. This was decided by educated people with positive intentions.

    It's a matter of not seeing what is not happening to you.


  • #194
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    On the issue of quotas, honestly do women not actually find them a bit offensive? Basically what quotas are saying is "here's an extra bit of help ladies because you won't make it if you have to compete properly with the men" Quotas are sexist and i have no time for anyone who pushes them, if your in favor of picking people for any job or position based on their gender you are sexist and not for equality.

    No, as a woman, I don't find quotas offensive in the slightest.


  • #195
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Your experiences are not the same as mine. You can support all three but you might not be even invested enough to do anything about it. It's not about better (considering the notion that the best candidate always wins is frankly deluded) it's about being representative.

    I am finished debating quotas. They are dominant mechanism in Europe, Ireland is fairly late to the party but in couple of years it will be forgotten that there even was an issue around quotas.

    Edit: just to explain some who don't exactly understand how elections work. Electoral quotas in Ireland don't mean you are guaranteed position, you are just given chance to compete.


    .....irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job


  • #196
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    .....irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job

    What about stories that I have heard of male dominated parties giving males the nod for the nomination, 'irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job'.

    Gender quotas are not put in place Willy nilly, they are put in place to counteract discrimination already there.

    Looking forward, the gender quota is having a positive impact.


  • #197
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Being happy with an 80:20 government in your favour is discrimination.

    Rubbish. I can honestly say that Catherine Murphy has done more to represent me than anyone else in the Dáil. Maybe 2 or 3 others.

    So that makes it about 90:10 in others' favour. Nowhere near "80:20 in my favour".

    Unlike you I don't assume that only my sex can represent me.
    It's a matter of not seeing what is not happening to you.

    Rubbish.


  • #198
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    What about stories that I have heard of male dominated parties giving males the nod for the nomination, 'irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job'.

    Gender quotas are not put in place Willy nilly, they are put in place to counteract discrimination already there.

    Looking forward, the gender quota is having a positive impact.

    Your opinon. Based on your agenda.

    Nothing wrong with your opinion - it's a discussion board - but an opinion is not a fact.


  • #199
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    On the issue of quotas, honestly do women not actually find them a bit offensive? Basically what quotas are saying is "here's an extra bit of help ladies because you won't make it if you have to compete properly with the men" Quotas are sexist and i have no time for anyone who pushes them, if your in favor of picking people for any job or position based on their gender you are sexist and not for equality.

    I find them offensive. I would rather get places on merit rather than get special treatment because I am female. The quotas, to me, suggest that I'm not good enough to make it without the extra help.


  • #200
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    Rubbish. I can honestly say that Catherine Murphy has done more to represent me than anyone else in the Dáil. Maybe 2 or 3 others.

    So that makes it about 90:10 in others' favour.

    Unlike you I don't assume that only my sex can represent me.



    Rubbish.

    But Jack you're missing the point.

    I am saying that female politicians are saying they are being discriminated against, so if you are saying you agree with the 80:20 government, and not looking at the people who say they are bring discriminated against, then you are aligning with it.


  • #201
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,482 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Jack Killian wrote: »
    .....irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job

    What about stories that I have heard of male dominated parties giving males the nod for the nomination, 'irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job'.
    It's a very bad idea to base policies on anecdotes.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • #202
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    .....irrespective of whether or not you are the best person for the job

    Irrespective weather they are the most popular person in local pub.


  • #203
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's a very bad idea to base policies on anecdotes.

    Policies now? Implemented on my anecdote.?


  • #204
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    But Jack you're missing the point.

    I am saying that female politicians are saying they are being discriminated against, so if you are saying you agree with the 80:20 government, and not looking at the people who say they are bring discriminated against, then you are aligning with it.

    Not in the slightest. This "with us or agin us" siege mentality is not something I subscribe to.


  • #205
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,482 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's a very bad idea to base policies on anecdotes.

    Policies now? Implemented on my anecdote.?
    Not what I said. You said "What about stories I heard?" and used that as a basis for stating that discrimination is endemic.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #206
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    Not in the slightest. This "with us or agin us" siege mentality is not something I subscribe to.

    Right.

    But this conversation originated from you saying I am pro discrimination and you are not. I could, and did above, say the exact same back to you.


  • #207
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Irrespective weather they are the most popular person in local pub.

    .....or the local "Women in Business" group ?


  • #208
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Right.

    But this conversation originated from you saying I am pro discrimination and you are not. I could, and did above, say the exact same back to you.

    But you were wrong.

    And you said you were for "positive" discrimination.

    So the facts are in my favour.


  • #209
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    But you were wrong.

    And you said you were for "positive" discrimination.

    So the facts are in my favour.

    Jack :) you said you were happy with an overwhelming majority of men in government yes? And always has been? Do you see any discrimination in this?

    If you say I am discriminating, I can also say you are discriminating . So the facts are not in your favour.


  • #210
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Irrespective weather they are the most popular person in local pub.

    Agreed. Gender quotas are progressive, and will breathe new life into the parties.


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  • #211
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Jack :)you said you were happy with an overwhelming majority of men in government yes? And always has been? Do you see any discrimination in this?

    If you say I am discriminating, I can also say you are discriminating . So the facts are not in your favour.

    News to me! Where did I say this ?


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